UALPA response to jumpseat threat

[Jon Rivoli]

Before I hand out any letters I make sure the gentleman I'm talking to isn't in the bottom 950, if so his problems are bigger than mine and handing a him such a letter would be extremely bad form.

 

[JustaNumber]

I don't understand why the gate agents can't be made to follow a simple SOP. More than one jumpseater? Pull out the laminated SOP card, follow the instructions, send the correct jumpseater down the jetway! If they are so out of control that they can't be required to follow a simple procedure, then UAL's problems are bigger than we know.

 

[Newpilot2b]

Justanumber,

That would be to easy for ALPO to figure out. Notice that ALPO didn't suggest any idea's in solving the problem.
Typical Liberial minded thinking. Let guess ALPO is pro Obama????
B$tch and moan and say we can do better.
UAL ALPO put your money were your mouth is and FIX THE PROBLEM. What did it take a good 1 hour to write this letter? 1 hour less in fixing the problem.
You guys were the ones that turned and faced in the wind when you pissed. You clean it up!

 

[The Drizzle]

I don't understand why the gate agents can't be made to follow a simple SOP. More than one jumpseater? Pull out the laminated SOP card, follow the instructions, send the correct jumpseater down the jetway! If they are so out of control that they can't be required to follow a simple procedure, then UAL's problems are bigger than we know.

I'm guessing you've never flown for them. In 3.5 years I haven't seen one thing that makes me think UAL is capable of running an airline, or an express division.

 

[dispatchguy]

In 3.5 years I haven't seen one thing that makes me think UAL is capable of running an airline, or an express division.

Especially when you look at the abortion, I mean the abomination, I mean the embarrassment, I mean the greyhound bus terminal which is Terminal F at ORD.

 

[The Drizzle]

Especially when you look at the abortion, I mean the abomination, I mean the embarrassment, I mean the greyhound bus terminal which is Terminal F at ORD.

Which looks like a smooth operation as compared with the A gates at IAD.

 

[buscap]

UAL pilots should've had this fixed a long time ago. You get what you give. If the tables were turned, there would've been UAL pilots beating on management's door with their hair on fire.

My advice to UAL pilots: ask for a truce and set a hard deadline to fix it. You guys started it by putting up with it in the first place. The onus is on you guys to fix it.

 

[timmay]

Cabin seat - maybe
Jumpseat - absolutely not.

The jumpseat is an accommodation for EXTRA CREW MEMBER. It is not a passenger seat. It belongs to the Captain and the airline operating the flight.

Everyone on this message board seems to think this. The purpose of the jumpseat is for feds and company line check being able to use it for a free ride is just an added bonus. This doesnt add much to the discussion other than I laugh everytime someone says the jumpseat belongs to the captain.

 

[timmay]

Cabin seat - maybe
Jumpseat - absolutely not.

The jumpseat is an accommodation for EXTRA CREW MEMBER. It is not a passenger seat. It belongs to the Captain and the airline operating the flight.

Everyone on this message board seems to think this. The purpose of the jumpseat is for feds and company line checks, being able to use it for a free ride is just an added bonus. This doesnt add much to the discussion other than I laugh everytime someone says the jumpseat belongs to the captain.

 

[sweptback]

Everyone on this message board seems to think this. The purpose of the jumpseat is for feds and company line checks, being able to use it for a free ride is just an added bonus. This doesnt add much to the discussion other than I laugh everytime someone says the jumpseat belongs to the captain.

Correct. The jumpseat belongs to the FAA first, then the company second. Most, if not all, companies give authority to the jumpseat (if not otherwise in use) to the Captain via their FOM or contract.

 

[dispatchguy]

I was talking with someone the other day, a former UAL union person, and he was of the opinion that the UAX carriers are required, per their air services agreements with UAL, to provide UAL crews with the ability to jumpseat on UAX metal.

I countered that I was sure, but not 100%, that those agreements stipulated that it be space available transportation, and that no where does it require that the UA crewmember be given priority over that carriers own crewmembers on their own airplanes.

His position was that if the embargo for UAL on UAX goes thru, and UAL crewmembers are denied JS on UAX, it could be seen as a violation of the air service agreement contracts that the UAX carriers have with UAL.

 

[getnverted]

The original UAX letter said we would be forced to deny the jumpseat on all airplanes regardless of tail-color:

Daily Departures:

Skywest 1794
Republic 1300
Mesa 800
Colgan 360
GoJets 78

Total 4332

UAL 1550 (prior to parking 737's)

That's 1,550 flights I might want to get on and 4,332 flights you might want to get on. Let's all quit thumping our chests and fix the problem.

 

[eatme]

I was talking with someone the other day, a former UAL union person, and he was of the opinion that the UAX carriers are required, per their air services agreements with UAL, to provide UAL crews with the ability to jumpseat on UAX metal.

I countered that I was sure, but not 100%, that those agreements stipulated that it be space available transportation, and that no where does it require that the UA crewmember be given priority over that carriers own crewmembers on their own airplanes.

His position was that if the embargo for UAL on UAX goes thru, and UAL crewmembers are denied JS on UAX, it could be seen as a violation of the air service agreement contracts that the UAX carriers have with UAL.

UALPA seems powerless to change the res system, they certainly are going to have no impact on anything regarding the air services agreement. Boy, how the mighty have fallen.

 

[rchcfi]

The original UAX letter said we would be forced to deny the jumpseat on all airplanes regardless of tail-color:

Daily Departures:

Skywest 1794
Republic 1300
Mesa 800
Colgan 360
GoJets 78

Total 4332

UAL 1550 (prior to parking 737's)

That's 1,550 flights I might want to get on and 4,332 flights you might want to get on. Let's all quit thumping our chests and fix the problem.

Jeezus, if those numbers are correct I'm sorry for the UAL pilots "if" this j/s war comes to fruition. I for one don't condone it and believe that there are other ways of handling this situation. However, I know that many UAX pilots live in base to offset the cost of commuting and having a crashpad. There has got to be more UAL pilots that commute than UAX for that simple reason....We just can't afford it!

Again, I do not agree with this UAX tactic, but if Daddy UALPA wants to posture with that letter, than so be it. We'll see who loses in the end..

 

[D-Bo]

Stand strong UAX pilots....I will support this war if it gets to that....The United pilots would never put up this behavior if it was them that were getting denied on their own aircraft.....

It's time to put a stop to the double standard......

Don't give in.....

It looks like we'll have to condition more than just our managents minds, who have become to know us as pushovers. That was from 01-07. Not anymore. We won't lose this so they better pull the letter, backtrack, and start talking if they're smart.

 

[Erlanger]

Whenever there's a UAL jumpseater, the Captain is going to have to get out of his seat and go up to the gate to check, to see if one of their own is trying to jumpseat. Every pilot should stay at the gate till it departs or call you crew support and tell them to call the Captain and tell them them that you're trying to get on.

 

[BoilerUP]

It looks like we'll have to condition more than just our managents minds, who have become to know us as pushovers. That was from 01-07. Not anymore. We won't lose this so they better pull the letter, backtrack, and start talking if they're smart.

Sooooooo...UAL pilots aren't going to "back down" because to do so toward RJ pilots would be a sign of weakness.

Don't you think UAX pilots feel the exact same way about backing down just because big, bad UAL ALPA says so?

EVERYBODY will "lose" if this thing gets to the point where UAL is actively denying jumpseats to UAX pilots and vice versa.

Sure would be nice if self-proclaimed professionals could put the rulers away away long enough to work together and get the FARKING PROBLEM FIXED?

 

[Goose Egg]

Sure would be nice if self-proclaimed professionals could put the rulers away away long enough to work together and get the FARKING PROBLEM FIXED?

I'm just glad that I don't commute on UAL, UAX, or anybody else for that freakin' matter. Self-proclaimed professionals: You hit the nail on the head with that one!

-Goose

 

[Ratherbsurfing]

I agree with Boiler. Silly that it's come to this. Still, I wonder how long a mainline carrier's pilot group would have put up with this if they were the ones affected. I imagine a lot less than two years. As always, everyone's welcome on my flightdeck. Even the dickhead gojet capt. who showed up 15 minutes before the flight out of ORD to gleefully inform me of the new priority change as he proceeded to bump me from the flight I waited for over an hour to catch. The jumpseat is sacred and one of my most treasured things about this job - let's not mess it up.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Every pilot should stay at the gate till it departs or call you crew support and tell them to call the Captain and tell them them that you're trying to get on.

A cell phone and ACARS is a handy, dandy tool...that's all I'll say right now. It's got me home when the UA priority sort was wrong.

Blanket party in 3, 2, 1...

 

[D-Bo]

Sooooooo...UAL pilots aren't going to "back down" because to do so toward RJ pilots would be a sign of weakness.

Don't you think UAX pilots feel the exact same way about backing down just because big, bad UAL ALPA says so?

EVERYBODY will "lose" if this thing gets to the point where UAL is actively denying jumpseats to UAX pilots and vice versa.

Sure would be nice if self-proclaimed professionals could put the rulers away away long enough to work together and get the FARKING PROBLEM FIXED?

That what our JS committee proposed in the letter. Put the letter/threat away and we'll talk. You still don't get it. The letter is a threat toward us on something we can't fix without the company trying to make us give up something from our already piss poor contract in order to pay for it. Now, if the tables were turned damned right we'd make sure it got fixed. NOT by threatening you guys but by going to the mat with our management. We've been professionals in this all along. We're the ones who called for the last meeting.

So, we aren't the ones who showed an act of aggression. That was brought to us. And if thats the game that UAX wants to play, we'll play.

 

[D-Bo]

I actually hope you guys leave us behind at the gate. It will serve as more than one catalyst.

 

[RobCat]

What in the hell is going on? Management needs to get this thing fixed ASAP. We all will lose in this war. Pilots at the big U should know better.

 

[Goose Egg]

Deleted

-Goose

 

[D-Bo]

What in the hell is going on? Management needs to get this thing fixed ASAP. We all will lose in this war. Pilots at the big U should know better.

We should know better than WHAT? To defend ourselves against a threat on something we don't control?

 

[SSDD]

D-BO,

I'm not for a jumpseat war. Nobody wins those. But your attitude is copout by someone who's benefiting by the "software glitch." Let me ask you this, if the glitch would have put mainline pilots at the bottom of the jumpseat priority, how long do you think it would have taken to get that fixed?

The bottom line is that there is no will to fix it, because you guys are the beneficiaries.

 

[D-Bo]

D-BO,

I'm not for a jumpseat war. Nobody wins those. But your attitude is copout by someone who's benefiting by the "software glitch." Let me ask you this, if the glitch would have put mainline pilots at the bottom of the jumpseat priority, how long do you think it would have taken to get that fixed?

The bottom line is that there is no will to fix it, because you guys are the beneficiaries.

I'll say it one more. If the tables were turned we'd be smart enough to challenge the folks that are responsible and have the ability to get it fixed....management, as opposed to going the round about way of threatening the opposing pilot group.
You can't get it through your head that if it were that easy to get fixed it would have been fixed yesterday. It's not easy and it takes a lot of money and if you know anything at all about ual management you'd understand that they take every opportunity to take from us.

We have them holding over 1000 jobs hostage right now and want to know what we'll give up to save jobs. We have the huge task of battling them to save the jobs of a lot of our pilots. And then to have UAX drop this on us? To try to get our management to fix something by attacking us? I've never commuted on UAX but I think this is BS. You guys can continue to think we are the bad guy.

What you say about us not wanting to fix it is absolute bull sh*t. Go back and re-read the letter from our JS Chairman and maybe you'll understand the situation a little better.

 

[Minimaniac]

I'll say it one more. If the tables were turned we'd be smart enough to challenge the folks that are responsible and have the ability to get it fixed....management, as opposed to going the round about way of threatening the opposing pilot group.
You can't get it through your head that if it were that easy to get fixed it would have been fixed yesterday. It's not easy and it takes a lot of money and if you know anything at all about ual management you'd understand that they take every opportunity to take from us.

We have them holding over 1000 jobs hostage right now and want to know what we'll give up to save jobs. We have the huge task of battling them to save the jobs of a lot of our pilots. And then to have UAX drop this on us? To try to get our management to fix something by attacking us? I've never commuted on UAX but I think this is BS. You guys can continue to think we are the bad guy.

What you say about us not wanting to fix it is absolute bull sh*t. Go back and re-read the letter from our JS Chairman and maybe you'll understand the situation a little better.

It is pilots with your combative attitude that lead to these jumpseat wars. Grow up, and shape up. That hot head of yours will wind up hurting hundreds of people.

 

[D-Bo]

It is pilots with your combative attitude that lead to these jumpseat wars. Grow up, and shape up. That hot head of yours will wind up hurting hundreds of people.

Combative attitude? Am I the one that wrote the initial threat level? I'm not combative. I am protective if I'm being attacked though. You all seem to ignore the fact that UAX played this wrong from the get go. And now you have the nerve to be upset at us for trying to protect ourselves. Like our JS chairman said, pull the Fn letter and we'll talk about this again.

 

[XPOO]

D-Bo,

I am posting this so that you may read it one last time:

Important Letter to United Pilots ​

June 30, 2008

To United Airlines pilots:

On behalf of the Jumpseat Committees representing all of the carriers flying as United Express, welcome aboard. Unfortunately, this letter has been provided to you because you will likely be affected by a difficult decision, reluctantly arrived at by the United Express (UAX) pilots. Over the last couple of years, United Airlines (UAL) has made changes to the gate jumpseating and priority software programs. Several of these changes have adversely affected not only the UAX pilots, but also the UAL pilots, as well. There is widespread confusion and frustration amongst many of the pilots regarding how the gate computer sorts priorities for jumpseat requests. Based upon the UAX agreement tables, jumpseat requests on UAX flights are supposed to be processed like this:

1. On their own flights, UAX pilots are sorted first, in order of their seniority.
2. UAL pilots and “other” UAX pilots are sorted next, in order of their check-in.
3. Non UAL/UAX pilots (“offline pilots”) are then sorted, in order of their check-in.

HOWEVER, the current software being used by UAL does NOT sort jumpseat requests in this order. Instead, all jumpseat requests are sorted as if the flight were a mainline UAL flight. This means that UAX pilots are being bumped by UAL pilots on their own UAX flights. The computer software also sorts some UAX pilots as if they were offline pilots, even on their own flights. Despite nine (9) months of repeated appeals to UAL management, and despite the fact that a minor software change would solve this issue (simply change the computers to recognize the carriers’ flight number) UAX carriers have recently been told that UAL will not fix this blatant degradation of our jumpseat agreements because to do so would not generate revenue for UAL. This position is untenable.

We have now sent a detailed letter to UALPA’s MEC, addressing these very important issues, and we have provided UALPA with specific examples of where UAL has made non-revenue generating changes to the gate software. The UAX pilots have respectfully requested that the gate jumpseat software be fixed within thirty (30) days. Regrettably, if UAL does not fix the jumpseat software within thirty (30) days, UAX pilots will be left with no other choice but to deny all UAL pilots any requests for the jumpseat, regardless of aircraft tail-colors beginning 07/31/08.

On behalf of all UAX pilots, we sincerely hope that we will not be forced to deny any UAL pilot a ride, as we are mindful of the fact that many UAL pilots will be negatively impacted. To that end, we are simply asking that you immediately call or email your MEC to let them know how important your UAX commute is, and to help us all obtain a fair and just resolution. Thank you for your professionalism and active cooperation.

Signed, the pilots of:

Chautauqua Airlines
Colgan Airlines
Go Jets Airlines
Mesa Air Group
Shuttle America
SkyWest Airlines

All this is asking is that you as a mainline United pilot please contact your MEC to let him/her know that you also believe that this matter needs to be fixed. It's called taking the moral high road. After a year and a half of being civil and getting the runaround from the UALPA MEC and UAL Management, this was the only alternative left. Until the UALPA MEC has UAX's back on this problem it will never be addressed.