UAL Returning Furloughees

[KnightwhosaysNi]

It's been quiet on the recall front the last few weeks--I hope they announce more classes soon. You would think it would be anytime--Anyone know how many previous bypassers have chosen to come back?

 

[Tanner]

I will answer my own question:
For a short period of time, they offered at "Pay to Upgrade" program. You could pay a little extra, and get the full type ride on the fleets where the F/O didn't automatically get typed.

The new deal is that we will get an SIC type ride. Upon return to TK for your PC/PT, hopefully by then they will hve the add-on approved to make it a PIC type rating. The SIC rating is now required for 2 pilots crews to fly outside the US- soon to be required inside the US.

The current concern is that it may generate an "Up or out" situation.

Is making it a PIC type program actually in the works?

 

[Kentang4]

Assignment

Just got word today that I'm headed for the 300 in DCA, March 20 class date. Not certain where I stand in the class seniority but I'm pretty sure it was the bottom half. I was happy just to be going back but DCA is icing on the cake!

Kent

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Just got word today that I'm headed for the 300 in DCA, March 20 class date. Not certain where I stand in the class seniority but I'm pretty sure it was the bottom half. I was happy just to be going back but DCA is icing on the cake!

Kent

Congratulations, Kent!

Great news. What was your original hire date?

Still waiting. 3/20/00 here.

Cheers!

GP

 

[flyingmonkey]

Next recall class

Bob Neil at WHQ said there will probably be a class in June, but the letters won't go out until March 1 at the earliest.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Bob Neil at WHQ said there will probably be a class in June, but the letters won't go out until March 1 at the earliest.

Things are looking a little better here at UAL....

60 to be called back in March, with 200+ more to follow in 2006. I did hear that UAL expects to offer recall to EVERYONE by 2/2007. (those that want to come back will be able to by then)

Lots of talk about a Freighter division, we hired an ex-VP from Atlas/Polar and he has really grown our freight (just in cargo on the PAX side) rumor is a 747-400 all cargo bird soon (oh-yeah and FLOWN BY UAL PILOTS and not wet leased)

Good luck guys, and hang in there the call will come soon!

 

[Kentang4]

Hire date

I was hired 11-15-99. Got the call December 20, 2005 for the March 20, 2006 class. Just got news of assignment yesterday. I was told I should have FOM and A/C manuals sometime next week.

Kent

 

[Guppydriver]

Things are looking a little better here at UAL....

60 to be called back in March, with 200+ more to follow in 2006. I did hear that UAL expects to offer recall to EVERYONE by 2/2007. (those that want to come back will be able to by then)

Lots of talk about a Freighter division, we hired an ex-VP from Atlas/Polar and he has really grown our freight (just in cargo on the PAX side) rumor is a 747-400 all cargo bird soon (oh-yeah and FLOWN BY UAL PILOTS and not wet leased)

Good luck guys, and hang in there the call will come soon!

Sonny, that sounds like great news but where did it come from? With 60 to be called back in March and 200 more to follow in 2006 that leaves recall offers to approximately 1500 in January and February of 2007. Imagine those class sizes! Been waiting over 4 years for the call. Feels like its getting close.

Guppydriver

 

[Andy]

Guppydriver, let's take a look at the numbers. Current 8 ball = 7774. Junior furloughee = 8915. That's 1141 that haven't been called yet.
Bypass/mil lv/LOA rate has been somewhere around 60%. As we get deeper, I'd expect the numbers to increase, but let's say it stays at 60%. It would take 457 slots to go through the list first pass.
Let's say that 257 are recalled for class in 2006, leaving another 200 recalls to go through the list.
There are a number of ways to slice & dice the 2007 info. Don't forget that it takes about 3 months from the time you're recalled until you start class. Kentang4 is a perfect example of this. That being the case, a different way to phrase it is that #8915 should be offered a class date no later than May 2007. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.
I'm about 500 from recall (and about 650 from the bottom of the list); I'm estimating that the call will likely occur late summer/early fall 2006 for a winter class date. I will exercise the mil leave option. I don't plan on returning until mid 2009, at which time I hope to be able to get a 777/400 FO position so that I can doze for dollars. I haven't flown an aircraft since fall 2002. My PI will be earning his paycheck. There are plenty others like me who will stay off property for a LONG time.

 

[Guppydriver]

Thanks Andy. Check the latest halfwinger post if you haven't already. Good intel.

 

[Huggyu2]

After you get recalled and submit your paperwork, how long before you find out what you get from your BidReq preferenced (e.g. Airbus to SFO, etc...)? Does that process change if you go on mil leave?
Also, say I get a 737, but go mil leave and never go to training. I can continue to bid for other aircraft and domiciles while on mil leave, right??

 

[Andy]

After you get recalled and submit your paperwork, how long before you find out what you get from your BidReq preferenced (e.g. Airbus to SFO, etc...)? Does that process change if you go on mil leave?
Also, say I get a 737, but go mil leave and never go to training. I can continue to bid for other aircraft and domiciles while on mil leave, right??

I don't know the answer to the first part of your question, but on bidding on mil leave, I noticed in the Feb bids that 6 people awarded 767 bids were on mil leave. Junior seniority number on mil leave awarded a 767 was 7253.

 

[GroundHog]

After you get recalled and submit your paperwork, how long before you find out what you get from your BidReq preferenced (e.g. Airbus to SFO, etc...)? Does that process change if you go on mil leave?
Also, say I get a 737, but go mil leave and never go to training. I can continue to bid for other aircraft and domiciles while on mil leave, right??

Huggy,
I got my equipment and domicile over the phone with Bob Neil. He looked at my class date and relative seniority and told me what I was senior enough to hold. I told him what I wanted, and he made it happen. Give him a call. He's has always returned my calls, and has never given me the impression that I was bothering him with all my questions.

After you've accepted recall, and taken your Mil LOA, the Domicile you've been awarded is the Domicile you need to work with. Bob will send you a welcome back letter and a bidreq sheet. The letter tells you that if you want to have a permanent bid entered into unimatic, contact your Domicile, and they will enter it for you. You are eligible to participate in vacancy bids while on LOA.
Hog

 

[Andy]

GroundHog, how do equipment freezes work while you're on Mil Leave? At what point are you frozen in a particular fleet & seat if you stay on Mil Leave and never go to training?

 

[Huggyu2]

I'll call Bob.
Thanks a bunch, guys.

 

[F/O]

Lots of talk about a Freighter division, we hired an ex-VP from Atlas/Polar and he has really grown our freight (just in cargo on the PAX side) rumor is a 747-400 all cargo bird soon (oh-yeah and FLOWN BY UAL PILOTS and not wet leased)

That's not what they are saying in the presentations to the recalls. Pete McDonald is saying UAL has not tapped all of its potential with belly cargo and freighters are years away.

 

[Andy]

That's not what they are saying in the presentations to the recalls. Pete McDonald is saying UAL has not tapped all of its potential with belly cargo and freighters are years away.

There's no money in cargo. (Quote from Rono Dutta, half of the Jimmy 'n Rono team that put UAL into BK).
Jimmy 'n Rono dismantled the ANC base and parked the DC-10Fs shortly after I arrived on property.
Until we have extra lift, I don't see UAL getting freighters back. Maybe once we've got a -400 replacement, they can take all of the -400s and convert them to -400Fs.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

That's not what they are saying in the presentations to the recalls. Pete McDonald is saying UAL has not tapped all of its potential with belly cargo and freighters are years away.

Forget what old Mcdonald says....!

Intel from the Feb 20 recall class is ALPA and UAL wanted to come to an agreement on a 400F but Mngt wanted to wet lease the airplanes and crew from Atlas/Polar however ALPA says...NO! We will fly them not another pilot group. (Already gave away 70 seats, but FORGET giving away any Freight aircraft)

Just reporting what my source tells me...

 

[GroundHog]

GroundHog, how do equipment freezes work while you're on Mil Leave? At what point are you frozen in a particular fleet & seat if you stay on Mil Leave and never go to training?

Andy,
I would just be guessing. I think even if you accept recall and go on Mil Leave before 3 years, if you come back from LOA beyond the 3 years out of equipment, you do the long course and get the freeze. Ultimately, I think it’s the long course/short course that decides your freeze. You can only get the short course if you come to training in the seat and equipment that you occupied within the last three years.
While on LOA, you can participate in vacancy bids and come back to train in whatever equipment your seniority can hold. If you stay out long enough, you could probably come back as a senior 75/76 FO. Your freeze won't start until training.
Or I could be completely wrong.
Hog

 

[Sonny Crockett]

There's no money in cargo. (Quote from Rono Dutta, half of the Jimmy 'n Rono team that put UAL into BK).
Jimmy 'n Rono dismantled the ANC base and parked the DC-10Fs shortly after I arrived on property.
Until we have extra lift, I don't see UAL getting freighters back. Maybe once we've got a -400 replacement, they can take all of the -400s and convert them to -400Fs.

Andy, did you get the call from the LAX office yet?

 

[Andy]

Andy, did you get the call from the LAX office yet?

No, I've still got another 450 or so in front of me.
It looks like the bond offering has brought out those that had previously bypassed, so it'll take a little while to get down to me.

 

[boeing747-800]

When do you plan on going back andy? What was your class date?

 

[Andy]

When do you plan on going back andy? What was your class date?

I was an 18 Jun 00 hire.
I will take mil leave; my IMA unit wants me to work there full time, and they are working it so that I will be able to be on continuous orders through mid-2009. So I guess that I'll return right around the time that the contract becomes amenable. Poor timing on my part, but this will allow me to get an active duty military retirement, along with higher pay than I could make at UAL and less time living out of a suitcase.
If the age 60 rule stands, I'm hoping that my seniority will give me junior bunkie on the 777/400. If age 60 goes away, I'll be a junior LCC pilot.
Here are the age 60 retirements by year at UAL (based on 7/05 seniority list):
2005 83 (obviously already retired, but added since the seniority list is based on 7/7/05 seniority)
2006 240
2007 266
2008 237
2009 239
2010 203
2011 169
2012 231
2013 246
2014 240
2015 277
2016 332
2017 309
2018 383
2019 357
2020 463
With the reduction in fleet types and the simplifying of the pay structure, there will be less training opportunities generated with each 777/400 Captain retirement. This will reduce the training float significantly, leading to less recalls and less hiring in the future. The increased seat locks don't help this situation.
I was very disappointed to see that, in the Feb vacancy bid, there was only one 777/400 training event; a 777 FO slot to DCA, taken by an SFO 777 FO with a seniority number of 2752.

Growth at UAL mainline will be stagnant for several years due to the 70 seat RJ giveaway ... UAL is able to have as many 70 seaters as mainline aircraft. That's where the bulk of UAL's growth will likely occur.

With the high number of UAL pilots on mil leave, there could also be quite a bit of stagnation in moving up the list as these pilots return to UAL. After looking at the payscales, it doesn't make economic sense for a UAL pilot on mil leave to return to UAL until they are senior enough to hold 777/400 FO. That's based on O-4 on flight pay without the bonus.

It will be interesting to see how many of the bypassers give up their seniority number; I expect that the 2007 seniority list will be reduced by more than just retirements.

It's very nice to see the recalls happening, but it's not entirely rosy for the future as far as advancement goes. I think that all we need to do is look at our brothers and sisters at USAirways east and see what happened to everyone who was hired on the back half of their explosive growth period. Based on all of this, I want to return to the highest seat that I can hold; I may be sitting there for a VERY LONG time. I plan to live in domicile and be on reserve for most of my UAL career.

 

[hyflyt560]

It will be interesting to see how many of the bypassers give up their seniority number; I expect that the 2007 seniority list will be reduced by more than just retirements.

I think I posted this once, but forgot if there was a reply. What about those who resigned their seniority number (i.e. went to work at FedEx, UPS, CX, etc) and then get recalled. Is it a "do or die" situation...if they bypass with a resignation letter on file, is that the end...off the UAL seniority list?

You guys that were smart enough to "pass the test" and get into the AF and Navy are lucky. It's damn near impossible to get a decent full-time job in the Army Guard/Reserves. The Army Guard's focus for AGR is recruiters (are recruiters? See, not smart enough to be blue).

John
5/00

 

[Andy]

I think I posted this once, but forgot if there was a reply. What about those who resigned their seniority number (i.e. went to work at FedEx, UPS, CX, etc) and then get recalled. Is it a "do or die" situation...if they bypass with a resignation letter on file, is that the end...off the UAL seniority list?

You guys that were smart enough to "pass the test" and get into the AF and Navy are lucky. It's dang near impossible to get a decent full-time job in the Army Guard/Reserves. The Army Guard's focus for AGR is recruiters (are recruiters? See, not smart enough to be blue).

John
5/00

There was an agreement between Forte and Dubo where all resignation letters were round filed. I don't know if that's in print anywhere, but I believe it is.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

The only unkown would be a Merger. If you are on bypass or LOA you might be without a seat if we face a Merger.

 

[Andy]

The only unkown would be a Merger. If you are on bypass or LOA you might be without a seat if we face a Merger.

Neither bypass nor LOA should affect the way that the seniority lists would be merged. Either way, I've come to the conclusion that there are other ways to make a living than being an airline pilot.
I realize that Tilton's been talking up consolidation of the airline industry for quite a while. He used to talk up cost reductions and making our product competitive at a Walmart level. He's now changed his tune on no frills. I would expect him to get educated on the history of mergers within the airline industry before he took such a step; one would be hard pressed to find a 'successful' merge. I'm waiting to see how the America West/USAirways merge plays out; I'd be surprised if it turns out to be financially successful.

 

[hyflyt560]

There was an agreement between Forte and Dubo where all resignation letters were round filed. I don't know if that's in print anywhere, but I believe it is.

About 3 years ago, the furlough coord. told me there was a letter of agreement, but I couldn't get a copy of it because it "really didn't exist." I can't remember if it was Coomans, or I heard it somewhere else, but I also have it in my mind that when a person came up for recall that had previously resigned, the question is asked of that pilot, "Does your resignation stand?" Does anyone know of someone who was recalled that had resigned? What were they told?

 

[level370]

The resignation letter agreement is kept in-house. No copies are allowed outside of a few within the UAL-MEC, otherwise it could cause problems for furloughees to get jobs with some other companies.

 

[bluefin]

There is one way deep down in the contracts or somewhere, I forgot where I found it. I got it back in '02, I don't know if it's the same one you are talking about, but it states the above.