UAL MEC standing tough for tighter Scope---listen up United Express people...

[A350]

Forgetting the comments from several mainline pilots....and all the rhetoric. The fact is, the flying that belongs to United Airlines belongs to the pilots of United Airlines. That flying has been let go due to several reasons, none of which are relevant at this point.

If the United pilots want this back....there is nothing anyone from the regional world can do about it. It was their's to give and it is their's to take back.

A350

 

[johnpeace]

The fact is, the flying that belongs to United Airlines belongs to the pilots of United Airlines.

That's an odd perspective...I would consider that the company, United Airlines, owns that flying (since they own the planes, market to the customers, pay for the fuel, operate the flights, lease the gates, pay all the bills and in fact are the airline). United can do what they want and what their contracts (including their pilot labor group contract) allow.

 

[CFIT]

Forgetting the comments from several mainline pilots....and all the rhetoric. The fact is, the flying that belongs to United Airlines belongs to the pilots of United Airlines. That flying has been let go due to several reasons, none of which are relevant at this point.

If the United pilots want this back....there is nothing anyone from the regional world can do about it. It was their's to give and it is their's to take back.

A350

That's just it, it isn't their flying. Management figures out what segment and what equipment would be the best choice. Not the pilot groups.

Can't blame the UAL pilot group for going after anything and everything. Everybody knows that mainline pilots could never fly an RJ and make a profit, the union knows and so does management. Many of the routes can't support a typical narrow body aircraft. Even if the mainline pilots said they would do it for free, management wouldn't do it. They don't want all of their eggs in one basket and the next contract they'd get raped.


So why all the retoric about taking back the regional flying. It helps build negotiating capital. If the mainline pilots want it then management has to by it back from them by higher rates and work rules.

This isn't really that hard to figure out.........

 

[johnpeace]

This isn't really that hard to figure out.........

Look at your audience though.

 

[Data]

Thanks, it sure didn't help when a BK judge "watched" the situation unfold in BK. That didn't help the matter at all. Luckily, the 50 seaters are on the way out anyway thanks to their inefficiency. Next, hopefully the 70 seaters and up will go under a "mainline umbrella", and that would be good for Regional pilots as well. But, for guys like Joe Merchant, ePilot22, and other lifers, I think they will like Beech 1900s or Embraer Bandirantes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Says the guy that voted yes to the last contract expanding scope. "But, but, but, I said I wasn't voting for it before I voted for it, you have to factor in the whole contract..."

 

[pave driver]

Hey Tilton, these gear jockeys are sure making our lives easier. Let's get together at the club tonight for some single barrel and Monte Cristos.

 

[johnsonrod]

We need to face the facts...

As regional drivers, we all have to face some hard facts:

1. RJs are not economical on competitive routes - you can't spread the costs easily over 50 seats with low airfares
2. As the economy improves and contracts come up for renewal, mainline pilots will have more negotiating leverage - and scope will be a huge issue
3. High yield business passengers hate RJs - they will do whatever they can to avoid them if they have a choice

You can't ignore the facts for too long. While I enjoy my job, I don't expect the situation to remain the same for long. This UAL/CAL merger integration is a wake-up call for me. Comair's big reduction of flying is another wake-up call. Things will get worse before they get better in the regional business - especially for the junior pilots. The old, senior dorks will probably survive at the bigger regionals.

Personally, I want the Majors taking more of the flying because that would provide more jobs in the Majors - that's the point. Why would I want the constant insecurity of staying in the regionals as the industry consolidates? This scope issue between CAL and UAL will be interesting to watch because all of the major pilots will be looking for similar changes.

Given that Air Canada already operates everything from E170s to 777s, I could see that model employed at the US majors long term. I am betting that the legacy pilots will look for a similar model and will want to fly everything above 50 seats - even at reduced rates to make the flights more economical for management. Perhaps they wouldn't fly the CR7s, but everything bigger that. It will be interesting to watch - and I hope to get to the other side before these potential changes take place.

 

[dougdrvr]

I'm sure some guy at Republic sits there at altitude and thinks, the 717 pilot who used to fly this route got paid 3 times as much. Why am I not worth that?


.

And then there's Popeye, whose mantra is: "I may work for ((bad word)) wages but those ((bad word)) wages allowed my company to PURCHASE your's".

 

[damnflyboy]

Don't kid yourselves. Companies will find a way to make a profit at the expense of others. Profit is the only reason for operating a business. Otherwise, it's a charity or it's US government. When we (pilots) have them by the balls, they'll refuse the clutch and move on to something else.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

That is a classic "lifer" response, "Why should we have to reinterview for flying the same passengers that we do now?" Really, what are you scared of? I know guys at my regional that have totally flipped out while here, acting strange and reclusive. They get in their own little world, and the next employer may not like that. I know some Mesaba guys got to slip through the cracks, along with initial Compass pilots who were not vetted as closely as the last half, but that is just the way it goes. I hope to get a Delta interview someday, and I will be prepared and have a good attitude. And, there is a difference in training and amount of money spent on each pilot when it comes to United vs United Express, (look at Mesa FOs and how much they are worth to Orenstein) but the passenger doesn't know that, and I think that is what the UAL MEC lady intended to point out here. Passengers don't know, and they are told by UAL people that they are the same, when they are not really treated the same. We all know that.

I am still a LONG way from being a lifer here (hopefully won't be) I am just tired of being looked down on as if I am not already doing basically the same job that a DC-9 pilot is doing. Tell me how much difference there is between operating a CRJ9 on a 4 day and operating a DC93 on a 4 day. The DC9 flys 75 passengers in from PVD to DTW. They all got off the plane, walk to a new gate, all board my flight and I take them to DFW. Yet I am not qualified to fly them from PVD to DTW???? If you really feel this way then you need to demand YOUR management have total control in all of the hiring and training of ALL flights that are operated for the people that buy tickets on your airline. You want everything both ways. Face it we are already a part of your company in every way but pay, work rules, and respect. Every company has its share of dumbarses, both at mainline and its contract carriers. An astronaut interview is not going to prevent that.

 

[doh]

A few observations. Mainline gave away scope. No matter how much the General spins and twists, this is an irrefutable fact. Mainline must fix the problem they created. It would be nice if they would fix the problem without trying to paint the pilots that they willingly (and stupidly) outsourced their jobs to as substandard. But if that is the only way to get mainline to finally man up and get rid of outsourcing, we should all be willing to hold our collective noses and encourage them to fix this problem. In the long run, it will benefit all pilots.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

I am still a LONG way from being a lifer here (hopefully won't be) I am just tired of being looked down on as if I am not already doing basically the same job that a DC-9 pilot is doing. Tell me how much difference there is between operating a CRJ9 on a 4 day and operating a DC93 on a 4 day. The DC9 flys 75 passengers in from PVD to DTW. They all got off the plane, walk to a new gate, all board my flight and I take them to DFW. Yet I am not qualified to fly them from PVD to DTW???? If you really feel this way then you need to demand YOUR management have total control in all of the hiring and training of ALL flights that are operated for the people that buy tickets on your airline. You want everything both ways. Face it we are already a part of your company in every way but pay, work rules, and respect. Every company has its share of dumbarses, both at mainline and its contract carriers. An astronaut interview is not going to prevent that.

Apparently you don't know much about the DC9. It is a labor intensive machine (especially when compared to an RJ).

 

[Dornier 335]

Apparently you don't know much about the DC9. It is a labor intensive machine (especially when compared to an RJ).

No reason to get bored then!

Now here's a question for you DC-9 drivers: Can you deploy reverse thrust in flight? I read about Aeroméxico Flight 498, the one that collided with a PA-28 over L.A. and one article states that AMX Captain Arturo Valdes Prom applied full reverse as he was dropping out the sky. Truth or journalistic fantasy?

The pic of the DC-9 falling out of the sky still gives me the creeps ...

(Sorry for sidetracking)

 

[Rough67]

No reason to get bored then!

Now here's a question for you DC-9 drivers: Can you deploy reverse thrust in flight?

(Sorry for sidetracking)

Nope, can't do that!.. I think you could in the old straight piped type dc-8s but not sure?

 

[dougdrvr]

No reason to get bored then!

Now here's a question for you DC-9 drivers: Can you deploy reverse thrust in flight? I read about Aeroméxico Flight 498, the one that collided with a PA-28 over L.A. and one article states that AMX Captain Arturo Valdes Prom applied full reverse as he was dropping out the sky. Truth or journalistic fantasy?

The pic of the DC-9 falling out of the sky still gives me the creeps ...

(Sorry for sidetracking)

There's nothing to stop you from intentionally doing it.

Ground shift keeps the isolation valve closed and separates them from respective hyd system but accumulator pressure will open them.

DC-9-10 up to and inccluding MD-88.

 

[dougdrvr]

It is a labor intensive machine (especially when compared to an RJ).

Only to the " Children of the Magenta Line."

 

[Gr82Aviate]

There's nothing to stop you from intentionally doing it.

Ground shift keeps the isolation valve closed and separates them from respective hyd system but accumulator pressure will open them.

DC-9-10 up to and inccluding MD-88.

Except maybe the will to live!

 

[Dornier 335]

Almost 25 years ago, but not forgotten

There's the article I came across:

excerpt:

In the cockpit of Aeromexico Flight 498, Pilot Arturo Valdes Prom was helpless. Glistening behind him in the noonday sun were the falling remains of his plane's horizontal stabilizer, a part of the tail that is vital to maintaining control. Also fluttering to the ground was the fuselage of a single-engine Piper Cherokee Archer that had collided with the DC-9 on the virtually cloudless day. Trying to slow the dive of his 60-ton plane, Valdes threw its two engines into reverse thrust. The whine of the jets grew to an awful roar before the airliner smashed with a fiery explosion into a pleasant middle-class neighborhood of suburban Cerritos, where residents had been enjoying the Labor Day weekend.
​

 

[dougdrvr]

Except maybe the will to live!

I'll grant you that! Although I personally witnessed a 717 land with a bucket deployed (accidently) and those are BIG buckets, so it can be done.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Apparently you don't know much about the DC9. It is a labor intensive machine (especially when compared to an RJ).

Then you missed the point. I could have compared it to flying a kite. The point was in dealing with the same group of passengers as we do already. Not in who has a more difficult plane to fly. Try flying a Saab (pre FMS) constantly dealing with being right in the middle of the weather and flying into little podunk airports with no ILS available. Would that be a better comparison?