UAL MEC standing tough for tighter Scope---listen up United Express people...

[damnflyboy]

Bring all RJ operations into mainline. Figure out a seniority integration. Fence off that equipment so if super senior CRJ captain wants to stay on that equipment, he wont get bumped out. I've always believed there are solutions to every problem. Management loves this division. They profit off it handsomely. Look at the salaries and stock options they are paid. Are they that much smarter or more talented?

Everyone can agree on this, the race for the bottom has to stop. If you made it to the point of getting hired to fly passengers at an airline, you are worth more than what most regional airlines pay.

Agreed. But most mainline guys would argue that I'm not even worthy of a staple, let alone seniority integration (because I'm a barbie-jet operator).

 

[tmac3333]

Dornier: I got hired with 2000 total time, all jet PIC from military. When the military pipeline dries up...which it is for various reasons, the airlines will have to start hiring from flight instructor or charter ranks. Maybe fly checks in the middle of the night? I don't know not my problem. I found a way to do it, because I wanted to. If you want to stay with your gig, good luck.

 

[rfa]

Dornier --

I thought of 3 in about 5 seconds.

1) Military
2) Flight Instruct
3) Charter

I never flew an RJ in my life before getting hired at Continental. Same with several in my class. I'm sorry you don't understand this. Enjoy your career at your regional, I hope it works out for you.

HA! Hired at Continental with no RJ time? No kidding? Could it be that you were military <rolls eyes> Well of course that is a good way of skipping the regionals, but even that is not a golden legacy ticket these days. ...unless they get lucky with delta and their low hiring minimums, some mil guys do not have enough PIC to get on with a"1000hr" major. Plus, the military is just too small these days.

As for flight instructing or charter... If you think a person with that experience will have an equal chance of getting a legacy job as a person with 121 (especially RJ) time, you are dreaming. Plus, people have to eat you know - maybe it did not cross your mind, but the civilian route is much harder financially than what you experienced. I know I could never keep up my stint as a flight instructor for much longer, and charter, well, that is not much better.

 

[Dornier 335]

I found a way to do it, because I wanted to. If you want to stay with your gig, good luck.

So have I. And I have even flown my little RJ for mainline rates in Europe. But I don't forget where most of my experience came from. And I hate to hear his generalization of RJ drivers like we are the root of all evil. Like I hate this "I'm too good to fly this little plane". I don't care about someone's inferiority problem. The RJ opportunity was there, I took it, and I moved on. But I never look down on somebody who flies a smaller plane.

@rfa: like I said before, he's just being slightly out of touch...

unless they get lucky with delta and their low hiring minimums

or Continental a few years ago: blond, big t!ts, low time and guess what? You're in!

 

[filejw]

So have I. And I have even flown my little RJ for mainline rates in Europe. But I don't forget where most of my experience came from. And I hate to hear his generalization of RJ drivers like we are the root of all evil. Like I hate this "I'm too good to fly this little plane". I don't care about someone's inferiority problem. The RJ opportunity was there, I took it, and I moved on. But I never look down on somebody who flies a smaller plane.

@rfa: like I said before, he's just being slightly out of touch...



or Continental a few years ago: blond, big t!ts, low time and guess what? You're in!

And I agree too.What most people here miss is this MEC is proposing to take back the flying as the contracts expire. Nothing wrong with that as that same MEC negotiated flying out of the contract and can do the same thing in reverse. FYI i don't work for UAL...

 

[the palm]

The sheer arrogance of mainline continues to boggle my mind.

1. Denver has the best training center in the world because the military trains there? I see military guys train at Flight Safety in Atlanta too.... And if the military is so great why are they training in the private sector? ROTFLMAO!!!!

2. UAX crews are not as safe as mainline? Yet they train at the same "world class" training center...../puke

3. Ofcourse people would rather fly first class on a mainline flight everywhere they go, but guess what? It's too freakin expensive. People really only care about getting where they want to go as cheaply and safely as possible. As long as that remains the case mainline airplanes will disappear and RJ's will remain.

4. Genital Lee is a doooooosh!

5. Mainline will ALWAYS give up scope for $$$$. History proves that. Management knows it. ALPA knows it. Even the scope chest thumpers know it.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

It cracks me up to read all these "Mainline" pilots talking tough on the regional board. As you are well aware (you are always telling us) we don't have a say in the matter, it is you who negotiate scope. Telling me that my days are numbered doesn't advance your cause any, the guy who is sitting to your immediate left the next time you go to work is the one you need to keep the pressure on. He's already a Captain and he probably doesn't have any more regard for your career than you have for mine.

The threat to you doesn't come from the little Barbi-Jets clogging up the sky, it comes from the guy who has seen his pay, benefits and pension decimated, who may be willing to give a little more on scope if it enables him to sock away a little bit more for his rapidly approaching retirement. He will have little trouble easing his conscience that what he did was ultimately for the good of the profession, restoring the pay and benefits for real airline pilots; you will thank him someday, after he retires, at 70.

So, please stop wasting your time bashing us regional pilots. Do what you got to do protect you career and quit wasting your time here.

 

[pave driver]

Hey guys, our plans to outsource all flying will be much easier than we thought. These groups will do all of our work for us. Just look at how they pit against each other. Pilots will always be pushovers and we'll never let them dictate to us the routes and equipment types.

 

[bluefin]

Why should any of us have to "reinterview" to do the same flying of the same passengers we are ALREADY flying every day? Did you have to reinterview when you went from the narrowbody you were hired into to the mighty 767??? The day your type at mainline realizes we at the regionals are ALREADY FLYING the very SAME passengers you then take to Europe or wherever and quit thinking of us as incapable inferiors, we all might get somewhere together.

Why should we have to go to the bottom of the list we were at 10 yrs ago in the joke of FOCL?

 

[CLARKGRSWOLD]

In all fairness, I will be the first to stick up for a regional airline guy. I spent 10 years at a regional flying mostly turbo-props. That is the hardest flying I've ever done. In fact, it was much harder 20 years ago when a Metroliner was state of the art, and 9 legs in a day didn't seem to bad because Great Lakes was doing 12!

What irks most mainline guys is the excitement displayed when 100 737's get parked, and some class 1 A-holes run around ORD with guppykiller on their bags. I understand some pilots choose to fly at a regional airline as the final career stop. Just understand that you never really control your own destiny. Another airline and pilot group are the real ones in control. I realized that in 1998, and the writing on the wall was very clear then. While regional airlines have seen explosive growth post 9/11, the ceiling has been reached. The push for larger regional jets is what management drools over. It's only the scope clauses at major airlines that prevent this. I'm sure some guy at Republic sits there at altitude and thinks, the 717 pilot who used to fly this route got paid 3 times as much. Why am I not worth that?

That is the conundrum. A major airline pilot sees it as job stealing, the regional airline pilot sees it as mainline pilot limiting growth and income potential. ALPA has a very difficult problem serving 2 masters. There has to be a solution. I'd advocate bringing all flying into mainline, and protecting the pilots who are already flying that equipment. A huge undertaking. I could never understand the logic of "we have to interview them, and hire them". We are all flying the same damn passengers.

Bring all RJ operations into mainline. Figure out a seniority integration. Fence off that equipment so if super senior CRJ captain wants to stay on that equipment, he wont get bumped out. I've always believed there are solutions to every problem. Management loves this division. They profit off it handsomely. Look at the salaries and stock options they are paid. Are they that much smarter or more talented?

Everyone can agree on this, the race for the bottom has to stop. If you made it to the point of getting hired to fly passengers at an airline, you are worth more than what most regional airlines pay.

HAHA yea mainline, control of your destiny, Tell that to the Airways guys that are 20 year 737 f/o's. Tell that to the TWA pilots that got the AA shaft, tell that to the UAL pilots that have been furloughed twice in 15 years. Mainline just paints the illusion of a stable job. Sorry but a 10 year RJ captain making 95k a year with a good schedule.. No thanks you can have mainline

 

[bluefin]

Right on, bro! In addition to that I'd like to hear the mainline pilots tell us how we are supposed to accumulate the experience required by the majors for employment. That's one point they'll never mention when it comes to that damn RJ/mainline debate. The mainline pilots have done a good job in dividing this pilot group into the worthy ones (those flying for a legacy carrier and oblivious to anything else) and not-worthy ones (RJ guys).

This bb is full of RJ-haters that blame us for their everyday problem, and accuse us of unprofessionalism etc. It is easier to point the finger at someone else.

Fly a turbo prop on 1 - 1.5 hour hops! Why should a 70 seat rj fly a 4 hr leg MCI-SFO when that used to be and should still be a B737/57 route? would it no be better flying that leg for 90+ an hour versus 32? as an FO?

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Fly a turbo prop on 1 - 1.5 hour hops! Why should a 70 seat rj fly a 4 hr leg MCI-SFO when that used to be and should still be a B737/57 route? would it no be better flying that leg for 90+ an hour versus 32? as an FO?

Who was given that choice? In those terms no one in the world would choose the RJ. The dangerous question is something more like, in exchange for "X", we would like "Y". If the "X" is attractive enough, "Y" will be agreed to and then I will be flying an RJ 4 hours from MCI-SFO.

 

[Rough67]

Mainline just paints the illusion of a stable job. Sorry but a 10 year RJ captain making 95k a year with a good schedule.. No thanks you can have mainline

I know a lot of folks from ACA that used to think the way you do.. good luck.

 

[johnsonrod]

Why should any of us have to "reinterview" to do the same flying of the same passengers we are ALREADY flying every day? Did you have to reinterview when you went from the narrowbody you were hired into to the mighty 767??? The day your type at mainline realizes we at the regionals are ALREADY FLYING the very SAME passengers you then take to Europe or wherever and quit thinking of us as incapable inferiors, we all might get somewhere together.

That is a classic "lifer" response, "Why should we have to reinterview for flying the same passengers that we do now?" Really, what are you scared of? I know guys at my regional that have totally flipped out while here, acting strange and reclusive. They get in their own little world, and the next employer may not like that. I know some Mesaba guys got to slip through the cracks, along with initial Compass pilots who were not vetted as closely as the last half, but that is just the way it goes. I hope to get a Delta interview someday, and I will be prepared and have a good attitude. And, there is a difference in training and amount of money spent on each pilot when it comes to United vs United Express, (look at Mesa FOs and how much they are worth to Orenstein) but the passenger doesn't know that, and I think that is what the UAL MEC lady intended to point out here. Passengers don't know, and they are told by UAL people that they are the same, when they are not really treated the same. We all know that.

 

[johnsonrod]

The sheer arrogance of mainline continues to boggle my mind.

1. Denver has the best training center in the world because the military trains there? I see military guys train at Flight Safety in Atlanta too.... And if the military is so great why are they training in the private sector? ROTFLMAO!!!!

2. UAX crews are not as safe as mainline? Yet they train at the same "world class" training center...../puke

3. Ofcourse people would rather fly first class on a mainline flight everywhere they go, but guess what? It's too freakin expensive. People really only care about getting where they want to go as cheaply and safely as possible. As long as that remains the case mainline airplanes will disappear and RJ's will remain.

4. Genital Lee is a doooooosh!

5. Mainline will ALWAYS give up scope for $$$$. History proves that. Management knows it. ALPA knows it. Even the scope chest thumpers know it.

Your best response to Gen Lee is that he is a doooosh. Oh-kay. And, when you stated mainline was more expensive to fly than United Express, I guess you didn't know that to get the merger with CAL to work, they had to dispose of 737s, 94 to be exact. Is that really more expensive? It was a tactical move that actually hurt UAL at DEN, since a lot of the routes those CR7s fly now are against LCC 737s or A319s (SWA and F9). And, how many RJs are remaining? I saw a whole bunch of E135s from my company go to the AZ desert, and I am thinking the older E145s may go next. Also, when was the last time in history two MECs from a merging company came out publically to say they wanted large RJ flying back under mainline? History is being written today. I hope they get it, so I can move on.

 

[johnsonrod]

It cracks me up to read all these "Mainline" pilots talking tough on the regional board. As you are well aware (you are always telling us) we don't have a say in the matter, it is you who negotiate scope. Telling me that my days are numbered doesn't advance your cause any, the guy who is sitting to your immediate left the next time you go to work is the one you need to keep the pressure on. He's already a Captain and he probably doesn't have any more regard for your career than you have for mine.

The threat to you doesn't come from the little Barbi-Jets clogging up the sky, it comes from the guy who has seen his pay, benefits and pension decimated, who may be willing to give a little more on scope if it enables him to sock away a little bit more for his rapidly approaching retirement. He will have little trouble easing his conscience that what he did was ultimately for the good of the profession, restoring the pay and benefits for real airline pilots; you will thank him someday, after he retires, at 70.

So, please stop wasting your time bashing us regional pilots. Do what you got to do protect you career and quit wasting your time here.

As regionals, we do not have scope. Mainline carriers do, and they negotiate it. What you and I have to worry about are not only the younger FOs that got furloughed, but also the mid level and older pilots who now commute on RJs. I unfortunately had to turn a lot away this Summer for weights or due to extra gas needed for Tstorms. They weren't that happy. When the economy gets more healthy, the mainline carriers may put larger planes on routes now flown by RJs. And I wish my own company had scope for my own base. It looks like Dash-8-400s will be coming into my hub from a lower cost regional, and there aint nothing I can do about it. I just want out.

 

[johnpeace]

And, how many RJs are remaining? I saw a whole bunch of E135s from my company go to the AZ desert, and I am thinking the older E145s may go next.

I work at a delta connection/united express regional that can't cover all of the flying and is 'surprised' at the increase in block hours every month. 50 seat airplanes we were told were coming out of the system are being extended for another year, there are no reserves, there's open time out the wazoo and we just announced hiring 48 pilots (and everyone here seems to know we need another 100).

Definitely not looking like a big decrease in 50 seat flying here....I guess we'll see what the future holds, won't we?

 

[johnsonrod]

HAHA yea mainline, control of your destiny, Tell that to the Airways guys that are 20 year 737 f/o's. Tell that to the TWA pilots that got the AA shaft, tell that to the UAL pilots that have been furloughed twice in 15 years. Mainline just paints the illusion of a stable job. Sorry but a 10 year RJ captain making 95k a year with a good schedule.. No thanks you can have mainline

Just because you get on with a mainline carrier, doesn't mean you are set for life. You are right, USAir is a nightmare. But, you don't have to interview there if you don't want to. You have to do your due dilligence and want to move on. Staying senior at a Regional might not be bad, but the Regionals are in for a wake up call thanks to the new Fatigue rules, new hiring standards, and now mainline MECs wanting some flying back, all while the mainline management needs a clean merger. You may stay at a Regional, but it won't look like today's regional for long. JMO.

 

[johnsonrod]

I work at a delta connection/united express regional that can't cover all of the flying and is 'surprised' at the increase in block hours every month. 50 seat airplanes we were told were coming out of the system are being extended for another year, there are no reserves, there's open time out the wazoo and we just announced hiring 48 pilots (and everyone here seems to know we need another 100).

Definitely not looking like a big decrease in 50 seat flying here....I guess we'll see what the future holds, won't we?

Is the increase for the same carrier, or a new one? I know Skywest started feed for Airtran in MKE. We all saw Freedom go down, and just heard about Comair getting chopped in half. Remember the United and CAL MECs haven't finished negotiating with management yet, and when they finish there may be more news about our collective futures.

 

[johnsonrod]

Fly a turbo prop on 1 - 1.5 hour hops! Why should a 70 seat rj fly a 4 hr leg MCI-SFO when that used to be and should still be a B737/57 route? would it no be better flying that leg for 90+ an hour versus 32? as an FO?

UAL mangement needed the 94 737s to be gone from the books to help close the merger, and a CR7 is better than nothing for SFO-Hawaii feed originating in MCI. They probably could have found a bigger plane to fill the route as the 737s left, but those bigger planes are needed somewhere else. It was not because the CR7 was the only plane that could make money, rather it was because the normal plane was parked. That is what Jon Rivoli needs to figure out here. We are not the cure all to mainline ills. I saw United Express CR7s flying to PHX from DEN, up against Southwest and USAir flights. Denver and Phoenix both are cities with over 5 million people living there. Why again would United have mostly CR7s flying that route? The answer, they ran out of planes after dumping the 737s. Both USAir and Southwest fly planes the size of 737s, and are probably full and making money.