UAL Furloughees... We're supposed to have jobs

[waveflyer]

Bottom line. Legacy pilots industry wide did not give a rats a$$ about their junior pilots. Outsourced while furloughing. Creating a completely disenfranchised group that can never be paid that well. Making it possible for places like skybus and VA and Jblue and USAIr to pay so little and have a virtually unlimited supply of pilots for whom they are a step up- and full circle then putting downward pressure on everyones wages.

Nice work fellas. Gave yourself a paycut and screwed up a bunch of pilots lives in the process.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So the question becomes- when will ALPA get on this fix and get everyone on one list? Right Joe?

Oh wait- no you'd want date of hire and would fight for the 'seniority' you currently have and would derail the whole thing- nevermind that every pilot at mainline went through a really trying interview process that you didn't. Lawsuits galore on all sides- and management wins bc of our egos

Mainline pilots want even better than DOH....If it was up to them, a 3 year mainline pilot would bump a 25 year "lifer" out of their seat...How is that fair? We will derail anything that doesn't honor our current QOL and seniority on our equipment....We will meet them HALFWAY...

The ego is on the mainline side...Even your post implies they are better because they "went through a really trying interview process that I didn't"...Who cares? They can interview here if they want to fly RJs and take their spot at the bottom like any new hire...That's what I can do if I want a mainline job....

Fair brand scope is a win/win for all....Mainline welfare job placement is a dead end....

 

[waveflyer]

Now just imagine the relative peace and prosperity that would exist if RJs were mainline aircraft. How much stronger would your union be? Everyones rights clearly defined by seniority lists that would be double their current size at each carrier. How dumb we were and continue to be.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Bottom line. Legacy pilots industry wide did not give a rats a$$ about their junior pilots. Outsourced while furloughing. Creating a completely disenfranchised group that can never be paid that well. Making it possible for places like skybus and VA and Jblue and USAIr to pay so little and have a virtually unlimited supply of pilots for whom they are a step up- and full circle then putting downward pressure on everyones wages.

Nice work fellas. Gave yourself a paycut and screwed up a bunch of pilots lives in the process.

That about sums it up perfectly...Don't take my job because senior mainline pilots screwed the junior ones..Take it up with them!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Now just imagine the relative peace and prosperity that would exist if RJs were mainline aircraft. How much stronger would your union be? Everyones rights clearly defined by seniority lists that would be double their current size at each carrier. How dumb we were and continue to be.

Yep...ASA and CMR pilots tried to make that happen back in 2000.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Yep...ASA and CMR pilots tried to make that happen back in 2000.

Nice try. That's not what happened, and you know it! Of course you or any of those asswipes at the rjdc have never been known for telling the truth. That's why you're stuck where you are!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Nice try. That's not what happened, and you know it! Of course you or any of those asswipes at the rjdc have never been known for telling the truth. That's why you're stuck where you are!

It's exactly what happened and you know it, despite the DALPA spin job. It was PID filing in accordance with ALPA merger policy. DALPA opposed on the basis of it not being appropriate to merge a mainline and regional list. Shall we dig up the DALPA response for everyone to read?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here are the documents for everyone to read for themselves.

http://www.rjdefense.com/petition.pdf

http://www.rjdefense.com/ecpresin.pdf

http://www.rjdefense.com/dalmecmergsub.pdf

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

The problem with the whole thing is that if a person is furloughed at United they should flow to the Captains Seat at the regional....but they have it as going to the FO's seat....just shows the weakness in the Union.

Let me see if I am following the drama that is unfolding in this movie here. Popcorn in hand.

Major airline pilots talk down and look down upon regional pilots when times are good. They call them selected names, mention how a certain regional isn't owned by their major; safety, work rules and training are all sub-par. Or they say how they are stealing jobs from the major with their RJs. Just reference what is taking place regarding the fallout from the Colgan crash in BUF or the lastest "kidnapping" in a CAL Express plane and mainline is tossing XJ under the bus.

Now times are tough and some major pilots are being shown the door and not only want a guaranteed seat, but they now say they should be placed right into the leftseat. Great thought if there was a flow or path that one followed to get into the mainline jet from the bottom feeder. Like RJ rightseat to leftseat then jump to a rightseat mainline then over to the leftseat after years for flying. Since it doesn't work that way then why should it work the opposite way? It shouldn't!!

Aren't some of the major pilots speaking with a forked tongue?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

It's exactly what happened and you know it, despite the DALPA spin job.

No it wasn't dickhead. Then why the lawsuit? More of the lies bestowed by the loser lifers at the rjdc!

It was PID filing in accordance with ALPA merger policy. DALPA opposed on the basis of it not being appropriate to merge a mainline and regional list. Shall we dig up the DALPA response for everyone to read?

There was no PID Joe, don't forget that little nugget. Just keep reaching, I'm sure you'll find Dan in there somewhere!
How about the $$million lawsuit filed by the rjdc?
There's a reason you're stuck at a regional joe. As with most of the other rjdc lifers, DUI's questionable backgrounds, no college are what keeps them there. Then you started your campaign, which like your career, failed miserably!
Don't worry, you and your band of sisters are right there in history next to the folks that went to work at CAL back in 1983!
Enjoy that career at dwindling ASA, it might be as successful as that lawsuit!:laugh:

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Here are the documents for everyone to read for themselves.

http://www.rjdefense.com/petition.pdf

http://www.rjdefense.com/ecpresin.pdf

http://www.rjdefense.com/dalmecmergsub.pdf

Compliments of the rjdc spin!
It translates into:
:crying: :crying: :crying:

Did you forget to add this nugget of information:

h. as to the claims set forth in Count VIII, such sum as may be determined
at trial, but in no event less than the sum of Two Million Dollars
($2,000,000.00) each.

i. as to the claims set forth in Count IX,
such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two
Million ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each.

j. as to the claims set forth in Count X,
such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two
Million Dollars ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each, plus the cumulative sum of One
Hundred Million ($100,000,000.00) as exemplary and punitive damages.

k. as to the claims set forth in Count XI, such sum as may be determined at
trial, but in no event less than Two Million ($2,000,000.00) each.

l. as to the claims set forth in Count XII, such sum as may be determined at
trial, but in no event less than Two Million ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each.

m. as to the claims set forth in Count XIII,
such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than Two
Million ($2,000,000.00) Dollars each.

Don't worry Joey, at least with doh you'll get your non rev privileges.........Oh wait a minute!:laugh:

 

[PCL_128]

The way I understand the agreement, they would be hired at the bottom of the list, and then management would be free to furlough any surplus pilots off the bottom of the list if they were overstaffed...You would be back at square one.

I'm pretty sure you haven't even read the LOA, so it's a little ridiculous for you to say "the way I understand the agreement." You simply don't understand the agreement.

Mainline pilots want even better than DOH....If it was up to them, a 3 year mainline pilot would bump a 25 year "lifer" out of their seat...How is that fair?

Joe, I've never heard a single mainline pilot say that they wouldn't be willing to fence off your airplane to protect you from getting bumped out of your seat. What you want is different: a seniority grab.

It was PID filing in accordance with ALPA merger policy.

The Executive Council decided that it was not in fact in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy, because there was no merger. Pretty simple.

 

[eaglesview]

I say SkyWest hire the UAL furloughees to the bottom of the list to meet the requirements of the LOA then furlough their a$$.

Any questions out there on what is wrong with this profession when you have folks like this fool out there?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I'm pretty sure you haven't even read the LOA, so it's a little ridiculous for you to say "the way I understand the agreement." You simply don't understand the agreement.



Joe, I've never heard a single mainline pilot say that they wouldn't be willing to fence off your airplane to protect you from getting bumped out of your seat. What you want is different: a seniority grab.



The Executive Council decided that it was not in fact in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy, because there was no merger. Pretty simple.

Shhhhh. Don't tell him and the rest of the unqualified ****************************** bags that are part of the rjdc.
They have a hard time saying, "wholly owned subsidiary."
They have a real easy time saying, "lawsuit," though!:laugh:

 

[waveflyer]

Still- don't lose the point- if we had all swallowed our pride and got the pilots of the wholly owned on ONE list earlier- we would all be getting paid a lot better now. Virgin America included. We've screwed ourselves on this one.

 

[saabservant]

Until we lock Bruce York, and the other alpa lawyers in a closet, we will all continue to suffer c-scale conditions. They are the ones who convince the MEC's to go along with outsourcing.
More outsourcing means more express carriers, meaning more lawyers "representing" each carrier...

 

[Mr.B]

Bottom line. Legacy pilots industry wide did not give a rats a$$ about their junior pilots. Outsourced while furloughing. Creating a completely disenfranchised group that can never be paid that well. Making it possible for places like skybus and VA and Jblue and USAIr to pay so little and have a virtually unlimited supply of pilots for whom they are a step up- and full circle then putting downward pressure on everyones wages.

Nice work fellas. Gave yourself a paycut and screwed up a bunch of pilots lives in the process.

This just about sums it up. Just about every furloughed or about-to-be furloughed pilot say theywould take a job at VA or JBlue (that is if they'll hire them) to pay the bills and hopefully resurrect a career that their senior brethren sold out for them. And, they hope to help take pax away from their former carriers any way they can (ie customer service).

Some on the other hand, myself included, will re-enter the non-aviation jungle and make a few bucks the hard way. It worked with the first furlough and I can proudly say I out-earned a -400 Captain, but it was hard work!

Cheers.

 

[Shrek]

This just about sums it up. Just about every furloughed or about-to-be furloughed pilot say theywould take a job at VA or JBlue (that is if they'll hire them) to pay the bills and hopefully resurrect a career that their senior brethren sold out for them. And, they hope to help take pax away from their former carriers any way they can (ie customer service).

Some on the other hand, myself included, will re-enter the non-aviation jungle and make a few bucks the hard way. It worked with the first furlough and I can proudly say I out-earned a -400 Captain, but it was hard work!

Cheers.

Not this furloughed pilot

 

[Quiet Flight]

The problem with the whole thing is that if a person is furloughed at United they should flow to the Captains Seat at the regional.....

Uh...what? Why is that? Why should they be given a captain seat? I could understand if the regional did not have enough f/o's on property with ATP mins, but other than that I don't see it.

 

[surplus1]

Good to see you posting again!

Thanks for the thought .... it's not likely to last.

In a situation where there is a net gain in airframes and pilot hiring is taking place, allowing furloughed mainline pilots to take the CA slots would be beneficial to your group because the slots that are being created as permanent, while the furloughed pilots filling them are only temporary. When the furloughee returns to his mainline carrier, those slots are all yours. Of course, this is only beneficial if the net gain in aircraft is conditional upon accepting the furloughed pilots into the left seats (ie. J4J). If you would be getting the airplanes either way, then you're in a great bargaining position and would have no reason to accept it.

No offense intended (I know you mean well) but you remind me of a senior citizen on Medicare shouting down his Senator because he objects to "socialized medicine" and wants no part of "government run programs". Just don't ask than objector to turn in his Medicare or Social Security card.

The problem with what you say is that you and others who agree with you actually believe what you're saying. You've bought into management's game hook, line and sinker .... and so did our union.

Airframes are acquired and flying is subcontracted because it is beneficial to management. Their plans will be carried out regardless of what pilots agree to or do not agree to. Airframes don't go to a subcontractor because its pilots agree to give their seats to "mainline pilots" ... they go because they are needed there. By the same token they don't not go becuse mainline pilots are pouting and threatening to be unruly. If management really wants to do something they will do it ... no matter what pilots think or don't think.

J4J was and is nothing more than a system of "grand theft seniority" on the part of mainline pilots, aided and abetted by the labor union that represented both pilot groups. The young pilots at the regionals agree to it because they're naive and inexperienced - they actually believe that the mainline pilots are doing them a favor. Hog wash! The mainline pilots saw an opportunity to take advantage of them and did so. Management couldn't care less which group of pilots screws another group .... so long as they get what they want.

As a typical example of pilot greed and union complicity, the seniors at USAirways sold their juniors at Mid Atlantic down the tubes when they thought it would get them something .... they got screwed anyway. Both they and the Mid Atlantic people shafted the Piedmont and Allegheny people at the first opportunity. The people at PSA sold out their "friends" at PDT and ALG because they wanted an advantage for themselves. Management simply saw them all for what they were and took advantage of the lot.

Over at AA and EGL ... same deal. The seniors at EGL sold out the juniors at EGL for personal gain. The wiser fellows at AA took advantage of both and ALPA, who wanted back the AA pilots helped them to screw the ALPA members at EGL. When AA bought TWA, the AA pilots didn't hesitate for one second to screw their "mainline brothers" at TWA however they could. ALPA did nothing to prevent it, they just blamed it all on the senior TWA pilots (probably with accuracy ... I don't know).

The bottom line is simple: We all live in a world of greed and "ME, ME, ME"; pilots are no exception. Our "union" is not a union at all, it is an Association of people who have nothing in common other than the same profession. Each group acts exclusively in its own interests, regardless of what happens to the other groups. This isn't "new", it didn't start with 'regional carriers' and it won't end when the regional carriers are no more. I could cite you a great many examples but since you're a student of ALPA history I'm sure you already know what they are.

I don't mean to imply that ALPA is a bad thing or an evil thing, it isn't. A great many good things have come out of ALPA from which we have all benefited over the years. All in all the good outweighs the bad. But, one thing that ALPA has never been able to do successfully is eliminate or even reduce the greed of individual pilot groups, or for that matter individual pilots. Sadly, I'm afraid that's too much to ask .... it would be un-American.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, we pilots consistently manage to fight among ourselves and play into the hands of management schemes. They know how we are, they know how we behave and they are able to play us against each other like the proverbial fiddle. Know why? Because we're just like them ... a collection of mini-capitalists ... each out for himself even at the expense of the whole.

On a separate note --- it seems you've changed airlines. If I'm correct, I wish you all the best in your new company. For your sake I hope you are never 'acquired' and become the subsidiary of some other group. I sincerely hope you manage to escape the brotherly love that will surely come your way in that event.