UAL Furloughees... We're supposed to have jobs

[contrail67]

Yeah, I don't fly for the regionals. Sorry to burst your bubble as I'll never be in your jumpseat. Enjoy though...

So you just get on a MAJOR Web board posting all of your "knowledge"?

Go back to your flight simulator game.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know you're not too bright, Joey, but even you should be able to recognize that he doesn't speak for ALPA. ALPA has never said or done anything even remotely similar to what he's suggesting.

Actually that is the whole concept of a flowback...Mainline flows back into the regionals and regional pilots get furloughed....That is ALL ALPA has advocated up until this point...I know you are brighter than that....

 

[glasspilot]

So you just get on a MAJOR Web board posting all of your "knowledge"?

Go back to your flight simulator game.

So those are my options eh? Major, regional or flight simulator game. That's it...the whole world of aviation is summed up by those three.

Why don't you focus on the point of my post and try hard to not let your massive ego get bruised. I spoke the truth and with a bit a research you'll know it's true.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually that is the whole concept of a flowback...Mainline flows back into the regionals and regional pilots get furloughed....That is ALL ALPA has advocated up until this point...I know you are brighter than that....

Flowback agreements are a little more complicated than that, Joey. Take a look at the MSA flowthrough agreement. A perfect example a flowthrough that posed little risk to the MSA pilots, but provided plenty of opportunity for advancement to the mainline carrier. How many EGL pilots were furloughed as a result of the AMR pilots flowing back, Joey? How many PSA pilots were furloughed as a result of J4J? Sorry, but your argument lacks reality.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Flowback agreements are a little more complicated than that, Joey. Take a look at the MSA flowthrough agreement. A perfect example a flowthrough that posed little risk to the MSA pilots, but provided plenty of opportunity for advancement to the mainline carrier. How many EGL pilots were furloughed as a result of the AMR pilots flowing back, Joey? How many PSA pilots were furloughed as a result of J4J? Sorry, but your argument lacks reality.

The MSA flowthrough hasn't done anything for anyone. How many EGL and PSA pilots couldn't upgrade and sat in the right seat as mainline pilots took the captain slots? EGL pilots did get furloughed as mainline pilots flowed into the top. Sorry, but you lack the facts!

Back to the original point before you sidetracked it...Waveflyer advocated mainline pilots coming in at the top and flushing regional pilots...That's exactly what these agreements do....Then y'all wonder why ALPA lacks credibility at a carrier like Skywest....They are smarter than you and the rest of the ALPA stooges....

 

[Skippy]

The statement in bold above is absolutely the funniest thing i've read all week.

There were no jobs created at skywest, so therefore the furloughees are not entitled to displace anyone from that carrier.

i think thats a cop out-- if you are decreasing one fleet but adding qualifying aircraft, such as rj's, then just b/c there is not net addition of more pilot sis BS----- if you didnt have the J4J int eh first place , you wouldnt have been getting and operating the rj's for UAL in teh first place. don't make this about adding jobs----- it's abou tth enumber of QUALIFYING aircraft you have taken delivery of since a certain date- plain and simple. If you cant find a place for a POS turboprop, that's not UALs, UAL furloughees, or anyone else's problem , but your own. it's JET 4 jobs, not PROPs 4 Jobs.


I'm waiting to hear from the MEC on this one and will see where it goes-- I agree it perpetuates the problem by putting furloughees in the right seat of a job at 1/2 the pay and plane they were flying, but it also gives an opportunity, should the furloughee want it to make a little more than unemployment, or make something when it runs out.

The company should live up to the agreement and why wouldn't they want more experienced pilots as fo's in this current climate anyway--.

SKIPPY.

Also, Contrail is on to something regarding the way the movement will happen--- i've spoken to many furloughees and they have the same mentality that movement will be quick and upwards due to many factors ( fleet, pilot's not returning, pilots delaying callback, pilots retirement, medicals etc) so i think when the recalls happen things will get interesting real quick.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Skippy,

If you want to fly these RJs in the left seat, why don't you negotiate to have United fly them? Then you can sit in whatever seat you want.

 

[waveflyer]

I have no problem with UA furloughs coming over, and taking their place at the bottom of the list. The integrity of the seniority system has to be preserved. We did it before, and we'll do it again. But as has been stated, that requires qualifying airplanes, AND positions being created. Right now only one of those has been met.

Look- the problem begins and ends with the weakness of major airline pilots and unions-and the abrogation of contracts through the bankruptcy process- Regional pilots have little to no say in what flying gets offered them. It was and continues to be major airline pilots who allow their scope to be loosened.

That being said- when I flew the rj- I was never under the impression that I was flying MY company's passengers. I find it ironic that you think what is going on resembles on any level "integrity of the seniority system." the whole purpose of regionals is to divide and cut up our seniority system. And we've fallen for it at every step.

 

[waveflyer]

The statement in bold above is absolutely the funniest thing i've read all week.

There were no jobs created at skywest, so therefore the furloughees are not entitled to displace anyone from that carrier.

Funny you say that-
Skywest doesn't create any job by itself- it flies other companies passengers- but what was traditionally skywest flying is the Brasilia flying. That is shrinking. They are not furloughing ONLY because they are taking on more RJs. RJs that under the agreement with united, would be flown by UAL furloughees. Why should UAL pilots be on the street when it's the Brasilia flying that is shrinking? Not the qualifying RJs...

I think the difference in my attitude is that I never got into regional flying even considering it could be a career. I got into it to qualify myself for a major, not to encourage the transfer of major airline flying to my regional. The whole purpose of the "regional" sector is to get around seniority and higher pay. Sorry that pisses you off. It does me too

 

[PCL_128]

Back to the original point before you sidetracked it...Waveflyer advocated mainline pilots coming in at the top and flushing regional pilots...That's exactly what these agreements do....Then y'all wonder why ALPA lacks credibility at a carrier like Skywest....They are smarter than you and the rest of the ALPA stooges....

Joey, these agreements are all voluntary. Some carriers accept them, some don't. They weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. Nothing is ever forced on them. With ALPA, the Skywest pilots would never have to worry about some super-seniority flowback affecting them unless they agreed to it. As it stands right now, management could agree to it without even asking their permission. I wonder what management would say if UAL came to them and said "we've worked out a deal with UAL ALPA to allow you to have 100 86-seat jets with a guaranteed profit margin, but it comes with the requirement that you let the UAL furloughees occupy the left seats until they're recalled." Think Jerry would turn down all that revenue? Not a chance in hell. He'd screw over his pilots, and they wouldn't be able to say a damned thing about it.

Yeah, they've much safer without ALPA representation.

 

[Skippy]

Skippy,

If you want to fly these RJs in the left seat, why don't you negotiate to have United fly them? Then you can sit in whatever seat you want.

joe, i haven't once discussed the j4j agreement as being one for the furloughees to be in the LEFT seat--- the agreement was the FO seat- and all i am saying is that the UX carriers live up to their end of the LOA-- for if it wasnt for said LOA they wouldnt be getting the qualifying aircraft-- It appears the UX carriers not adhereing to the LOA are trying to have their cake and eat it too and not reciprocate to the very people that are making their company and pilots thrive and prosper.

I cant make it any simpler than that-- im not upset that the flowbacks arent in captain slots--- it would be nice, but that wasnt what was negotiated- so think of this:

1. either live up to the agreed to and negotiated LOA or simply give back or take out the qualifying aircraft

or 2. from now on, you dont get any more qualifying aircraft unless we get the left seats. I wonder how quick i'd be in class for the right seat with that threat.

asking me to negotiate stuff is like me asking you to do one of the above- we both have no say so all im saying is both companies should live up to the LOA------ UA already has since your flying revenue with those planes in UA colors-- now reciprocate , that's all im requesting.


The sad part is being a furloughee , what remedies do i and others have, and what compensation should be due us.




SKIPPY

 

[SnowBoardBum]

I say SkyWest hire the UAL furloughees to the bottom of the list to meet the requirements of the LOA then furlough their a$$.

 

[FSIGRAD]

I not sure how many "qualifying aircraft" Shuttle America has added recently but my guess is zero. If anything we (RAH) are pulling 7 145's because UAL is asking for a 20% decrease in rates. BB called it "obscene".

 

[sstearns2]

Joey, these agreements are all voluntary. Some carriers accept them, some don't. They weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. Nothing is ever forced on them. With ALPA, the Skywest pilots would never have to worry about some super-seniority flowback affecting them unless they agreed to it. As it stands right now, management could agree to it without even asking their permission. I wonder what management would say if UAL came to them and said "we've worked out a deal with UAL ALPA to allow you to have 100 86-seat jets with a guaranteed profit margin, but it comes with the requirement that you let the UAL furloughees occupy the left seats until they're recalled." Think Jerry would turn down all that revenue? Not a chance in hell. He'd screw over his pilots, and they wouldn't be able to say a damned thing about it.

Yeah, they've much safer without ALPA representation.

I've flown for Skywest for 8 years now and I can pretty much assure you that Jerry would turn down any deal that put outside pilots anywhere but the bottom of our seniority list. Do you think ALPA and UAL were not pushing for that last time? Do you think ALPA national wouldn't be doing everything they could to get UAL pilots in the left seat of our airplanes even if Skywest was part of ALPA?

I'd love to see the furloughed UAL pilots back at Skywest. It was a great group of guys last time.

Scott

 

[AA717driver]

The whole idea behind flowbacks is that the regionals have profited dramatically from mainline downsizing--to the detriment of the pilots flowing back.

At AA, mainline downsized, Eagle doubled in size.

UAL is parking the 737's, flying picked up by the RJ's.

Pretty simple equation. Who is to blame? Everyone who has been associated with a Legacy airline for the past 20 years. Unions were asleep at the wheel. Management took advantage of it.

Pilots are paying for it.

TC

 

[Goodstick]

The whole idea behind flowbacks is that the regionals have profited dramatically from mainline downsizing--to the detriment of the pilots flowing back.

At AA, mainline downsized, Eagle doubled in size.

UAL is parking the 737's, flying picked up by the RJ's.

Pretty simple equation. Who is to blame? Everyone who has been associated with a Legacy airline for the past 20 years. Unions were asleep at the wheel. Management took advantage of it.

Pilots are paying for it.

TC

Your facts are way off. I was hired in 99 with Eagle and our pilot numbers were 2700. Guess what they are now? 2700 and with pilots on furlough. And yes I was one of the pilots that upgraded after 5 years only to get displaced back to the right seat so AA pilots and newly acquired TWA pilots can take my hard earned Capt seat.

As far as your earlier gripe about the expiration of the flowthru agreement, it was just that. The flowthru agreement expired and you were able to hold what your seniority allows. By the way, an arbitrator agreed with that interpretation of the agreement.

Lets keep our facts straight....shall we?

 

[Goodstick]

At American Eagle Here are some numbers for 717driver. You aren't the only one as I had to explain this to an AA crew the other day while jumpseating.

Fact: All SAABs retired.
Fact: All but 10 EMB-135 parked
Fact: No new airplane orders or deliveries in the last 5 years.
Fact :75 pilot furloughs and the pilot numbers have remained about the same numbers since I was hired in 99.

How is Eagle "still growing" or "doubling in size"?

 

[CRJ's suck]

Funny you say that-
Skywest doesn't create any job by itself- it flies other companies passengers- but what was traditionally skywest flying is the Brasilia flying. That is shrinking. They are not furloughing ONLY because they are taking on more RJs. RJs that under the agreement with united, would be flown by UAL furloughees. Why should UAL pilots be on the street when it's the Brasilia flying that is shrinking? Not the qualifying RJs...

I think the difference in my attitude is that I never got into regional flying even considering it could be a career. I got into it to qualify myself for a major, not to encourage the transfer of major airline flying to my regional. The whole purpose of the "regional" sector is to get around seniority and higher pay. Sorry that pisses you off. It does me too

I'm not disagreeing on one part of your statement, Skywest does fly other companies passengers. Last time I checked though, the Brasilia flying for United was being done under the United Express banner. The new planes are being flown under the united express banner. So if they are getting rid of one brasilia and getting one RJ, therotically, there is no need to hire any more pilots. Now, I understand that it is a qualifying aircraft, but no jobs are being created.

They are two seperate companies. If Skywest gets more airplanes and actually needs to hire because of that, I am all for hiring nothing but furloughed United pilots.

I don't see any reason a Skywest guy should be on the street so they can bring in someone for any other company.

 

[glasspilot]

At American Eagle Here are some numbers for 717driver. You aren't the only one as I had to explain this to an AA crew the other day while jumpseating.

Fact: All SAABs retired.
Fact: All but 10 EMB-135 parked
Fact: No new airplane orders or deliveries in the last 5 years.
Fact :75 pilot furloughs and the pilot numbers have remained about the same numbers since I was hired in 99.

How is Eagle "still growing" or "doubling in size"?

EVERY pilot at Eagle falls into 1 of 2 catagories:

1. You signed a 16 year horrendous contract, or

2. You applied for a job with a carrier with said 16 year horrendous contract.

What's funny is you ding dongs gave up the farm...pay, work rules, qol, AND agreed to a 16 year contract to get one thing. Flow through. And that's the one gem that burned you all the most.

None of you could see past your noses and realize that you're more likely to get a job at AA if you simply APPLY for the job than jump through crazy hoops to make sure it's GIVEN to you.

I say, you made your 16 year bed. Snuggle up and get comfy and stop whining to the rest of us.

 

[Goodstick]

EVERY pilot at Eagle falls into 1 of 2 catagories:

1. You signed a 16 year horrendous contract, or

2. You applied for a job with a carrier with said 16 year horrendous contract.

What's funny is you ding dongs gave up the farm...pay, work rules, qol, AND agreed to a 16 year contract to get one thing. Flow through. And that's the one gem that burned you all the most.

None of you could see past your noses and realize that you're more likely to get a job at AA if you simply APPLY for the job than jump through crazy hoops to make sure it's GIVEN to you.

I say, you made your 16 year bed. Snuggle up and get comfy and stop whining to the rest of us.

I didn't sign the contract. It was inplace when I was hired. As far as qol...its better then most regionals so someone else needs another fact check. I also sense a little AArogance in your belittleing statements.

You don't hear me whining about my job ever. I actually like it and prob make more then senior Super 80 FOs to boot. Granted its taken a while to get here but you won't see me applying for a furlough fodder position anytime soon. What I was trying to explain to some was simple. Eagle is not growing as many uninformed keep stating.

 

[Skippy]

I'm not disagreeing on one part of your statement, Skywest does fly other companies passengers. Last time I checked though, the Brasilia flying for United was being done under the United Express banner. The new planes are being flown under the united express banner. So if they are getting rid of one brasilia and getting one RJ, therotically, there is no need to hire any more pilots. Now, I understand that it is a qualifying aircraft, but no jobs are being created.

They are two seperate companies. If Skywest gets more airplanes and actually needs to hire because of that, I am all for hiring nothing but furloughed United pilots.

I don't see any reason a Skywest guy should be on the street so they can bring in someone for any other company.

So you want to take delivery of qualifying aircraft under the LOA and then not keep your end of the bargain by offering the U pilots the already negotiated and agreed upon positions---- well, if that isnt a selfish attitude---- I cannot believe you take the planes , than reneg on the LOA b/c it might put your own pilots on furlough-- well duh-- it creates positions for those that would have been furloughed in the first place-- so you see with the delivery of those planes it saves your own company's furloughs. WOW, seriously, wow! I am in absolute awe that you think this way.

 

[dodgerk]

If Skywest took on any UAL pilots, they would furlough them the next day because we are so overstaffed. How does it make any sense to hire United pilots when there is no room for them? The United pilots would go to the bottom of the seniority list and just be furloughed from Skywest. How does this not make sense to you? If we had need to hire, then we better hire United pilots, but until then we walk the furlough tightrope.

 

[Skippy]

am i the only one who sees this?

let's say you park 10 of your beloved brazilia's and took delivery of let's say 10 "qualifying" aircraft.

now you see it as a net of zero but it really isnt. what would have happend if you hadnt taken delivery of the qualifying aircraft? ding ding ding---- yes you would have furloughed 100% from Skywest.

Now under j4j if you took delivery of "qualifying aircraft" would you have furloughed more or less pilots? ding ding ding correct... less-50% less- however the united furloughees should remain - even if skywest has furloughs b/c they are bascally keeping your guys from being furloughed on an approx one for one basis. If U furloughees get 50% of the seats, then only 50% of skywest fo's get furloughed.

What is so difficult for you to understand?-- the fact that they would be furloughed anyway is moot-- b/c the U furloughees should always have jobs B/C their company is responsible for saving your own furloughees on an approx one for one basis----- the fact that you arent hiring-- is selfish and borderline arrogant and doesnt "fly"-- i understand the need to protect your own pilots, but this j4j allows that , and now the smell of "reneg" is in the air and that is unacceptable.

So in summary, you gladly accept the qualifying aircraft but when it comes time to have U furloughees get seats in them (when it is the very reason you accepted the qualifying aircraft that you arent furloughing more of your beloved own pilots), you cry we shouldnt furlough skywest pilots. How is that not a double standard.

what is it about this scenario that you dont understanbd or agree with?

 

[CRJ's suck]

am i the only one who sees this?

let's say you park 10 of your beloved brazilia's and took delivery of let's say 10 "qualifying" aircraft.

now you see it as a net of zero but it really isnt. what would have happend if you hadnt taken delivery of the qualifying aircraft? ding ding ding---- yes you would have furloughed 100% from Skywest.

Now under j4j if you took delivery of "qualifying aircraft" would you have furloughed more or less pilots? ding ding ding correct... less-50% less- however the united furloughees should remain - even if skywest has furloughs b/c they are bascally keeping your guys from being furloughed on an approx one for one basis. If U furloughees get 50% of the seats, then only 50% of skywest fo's get furloughed.

What is so difficult for you to understand?-- the fact that they would be furloughed anyway is moot-- b/c the U furloughees should always have jobs B/C their company is responsible for saving your own furloughees on an approx one for one basis----- the fact that you arent hiring-- is selfish and borderline arrogant and doesnt "fly"-- i understand the need to protect your own pilots, but this j4j allows that , and now the smell of "reneg" is in the air and that is unacceptable.

So in summary, you gladly accept the qualifying aircraft but when it comes time to have U furloughees get seats in them (when it is the very reason you accepted the qualifying aircraft that you arent furloughing more of your beloved own pilots), you cry we shouldnt furlough skywest pilots. How is that not a double standard.

what is it about this scenario that you dont understanbd or agree with?

I don't have a dog in this fight. From the outside looking in this post reeks of the entitlement mentality. If I could read the LOA that pertains to this, you might be able to change my mind.

 

[volav8r1]

You don't hear me whining about my job ever. I actually like it and prob make more then senior Super 80 FOs to boot. Granted its taken a while to get here but you won't see me applying for a furlough fodder position anytime soon.QUOTE]


Not that I really care, but could you please qualify this statement? A senior AA "80" FO is in the neighborhood of $110 /hr while you (assuming you are a "CRJ700" CA) would be around $85 to $87 /hr.

Not calling BS just yet, I am genuinely curious. I saw on APC the difference in monthly guarantee but that still puts a senior FO at AA making more.

Thanks for qualifying.

VOL

 

[waveflyer]

I don't have a dog in this fight. From the outside looking in this post reeks of the entitlement mentality. If I could read the LOA that pertains to this, you might be able to change my mind.

"entitlement"?

I could say the same thing about you- what makes you entitled to jobs that come from qualified airplanes? The jobs for UAL pilots were negotiated in. Nevermind that you have a job at all bc scope got so screwed up. And before you cry bs- put yourself in the UAL pilots shoes- what would you think if skywest outsourced all their Brasilia flying to Great Lakes? Honestly- really think and feel that one out. What would you honestly feel if skywest were furloughing and taking paycuts and you got towatch from the sidelines as Great Lakes triples in size?

On the mainline side- ALPA and ALPA pilots really screwed up on this one. They didn't negotiate seniority- and so I'd have to see the specific language.

I jus don't think it's right. Skywest guys are keeping their jobs ONLY because of the j4j agreement.

 

[Goodstick]

You don't hear me whining about my job ever. I actually like it and prob make more then senior Super 80 FOs to boot. Granted its taken a while to get here but you won't see me applying for a furlough fodder position anytime soon.QUOTE]


Not that I really care, but could you please qualify this statement? A senior AA "80" FO is in the neighborhood of $110 /hr while you (assuming you are a "CRJ700" CA) would be around $85 to $87 /hr.

Not calling BS just yet, I am genuinely curious. I saw on APC the difference in monthly guarantee but that still puts a senior FO at AA making more.

Thanks for qualifying.

VOL

Not a problem. Our workrules/pay guarantees etc are a little different then theirs and although the hourly wage may be less, we typically work way more hours. Just look at the pay guarantees.

I say this as I have made Mid 90's without too much effort in the past. For those that "work the system" take advantage of paid transition conflicts, work OT, Instruct, Fly on vacatiion etc, I have heard of figures of as high as 160's. Granted they are doing the work of 2 pilots but that is their choosing. When we were short of pilots the company actually paid double time for months even. We have recently furloughed and cut back our flying more so You probably won't see those numbers anytime soon again.

I have riden on AA jumpseats and have heard senior FO's complain that they have never broken 6 figures.

 

[JoeMerchant]

"entitlement"?

I could say the same thing about you- what makes you entitled to jobs that come from qualified airplanes? The jobs for UAL pilots were negotiated in. Nevermind that you have a job at all bc scope got so screwed up. And before you cry bs- put yourself in the UAL pilots shoes- what would you think if skywest outsourced all their Brasilia flying to Great Lakes? Honestly- really think and feel that one out. What would you honestly feel if skywest were furloughing and taking paycuts and you got towatch from the sidelines as Great Lakes triples in size?

On the mainline side- ALPA and ALPA pilots really screwed up on this one. They didn't negotiate seniority- and so I'd have to see the specific language.

I jus don't think it's right. Skywest guys are keeping their jobs ONLY because of the j4j agreement.

ALPA and mainline pilots screwing up on the scope issue does not constitute an emergency on my part. Regional pilots have been trying to get mainline pilots and ALPA to fix this mess for almost 15 years now...

The way I understand the agreement, they would be hired at the bottom of the list, and then management would be free to furlough any surplus pilots off the bottom of the list if they were overstaffed...You would be back at square one.

The United pilots wanted super seniority, but Skywest and others said No.

To answer your question about being in their shoes, we are all the time....DCI and UEX flying is constantly being moved from one pawn to another...When it is, we don't go with the airplanes...

 

[waveflyer]

So the question becomes- when will ALPA get on this fix and get everyone on one list? Right Joe?

Oh wait- no you'd want date of hire and would fight for the 'seniority' you currently have and would derail the whole thing- nevermind that every pilot at mainline went through a really trying interview process that you didn't. Lawsuits galore on all sides- and management wins bc of our egos

 

[Skippy]

i take back all i posted before: i finally got a copy of the LOA-- 5 positions per qualifying aircraft. 3 out of those 5 must go to small jet aircraft

the out is in paragraph 3a-- there are no additional new hire positions to be filled.

we suck and this LOA is worth complete schit-- thank you captain paul whiteford.

hell, we might as well save some time, money and manpower on this one, rescind the grievance- UA will not and can not win this one

in the famous words of billy madison-- you are now all dumber for reading my posts and may god have mercy on my soul.......

moderators, please end thread...