UAL Furloughees... We're supposed to have jobs

[contrail67]

Yeah, I don't fly for the regionals. Sorry to burst your bubble as I'll never be in your jumpseat. Enjoy though...

So you just get on a MAJOR Web board posting all of your "knowledge"?

Go back to your flight simulator game.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know you're not too bright, Joey, but even you should be able to recognize that he doesn't speak for ALPA. ALPA has never said or done anything even remotely similar to what he's suggesting.

Actually that is the whole concept of a flowback...Mainline flows back into the regionals and regional pilots get furloughed....That is ALL ALPA has advocated up until this point...I know you are brighter than that....

 

[glasspilot]

So you just get on a MAJOR Web board posting all of your "knowledge"?

Go back to your flight simulator game.

So those are my options eh? Major, regional or flight simulator game. That's it...the whole world of aviation is summed up by those three.

Why don't you focus on the point of my post and try hard to not let your massive ego get bruised. I spoke the truth and with a bit a research you'll know it's true.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually that is the whole concept of a flowback...Mainline flows back into the regionals and regional pilots get furloughed....That is ALL ALPA has advocated up until this point...I know you are brighter than that....

Flowback agreements are a little more complicated than that, Joey. Take a look at the MSA flowthrough agreement. A perfect example a flowthrough that posed little risk to the MSA pilots, but provided plenty of opportunity for advancement to the mainline carrier. How many EGL pilots were furloughed as a result of the AMR pilots flowing back, Joey? How many PSA pilots were furloughed as a result of J4J? Sorry, but your argument lacks reality.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Flowback agreements are a little more complicated than that, Joey. Take a look at the MSA flowthrough agreement. A perfect example a flowthrough that posed little risk to the MSA pilots, but provided plenty of opportunity for advancement to the mainline carrier. How many EGL pilots were furloughed as a result of the AMR pilots flowing back, Joey? How many PSA pilots were furloughed as a result of J4J? Sorry, but your argument lacks reality.

The MSA flowthrough hasn't done anything for anyone. How many EGL and PSA pilots couldn't upgrade and sat in the right seat as mainline pilots took the captain slots? EGL pilots did get furloughed as mainline pilots flowed into the top. Sorry, but you lack the facts!

Back to the original point before you sidetracked it...Waveflyer advocated mainline pilots coming in at the top and flushing regional pilots...That's exactly what these agreements do....Then y'all wonder why ALPA lacks credibility at a carrier like Skywest....They are smarter than you and the rest of the ALPA stooges....

 

[Skippy]

The statement in bold above is absolutely the funniest thing i've read all week.

There were no jobs created at skywest, so therefore the furloughees are not entitled to displace anyone from that carrier.

i think thats a cop out-- if you are decreasing one fleet but adding qualifying aircraft, such as rj's, then just b/c there is not net addition of more pilot sis BS----- if you didnt have the J4J int eh first place , you wouldnt have been getting and operating the rj's for UAL in teh first place. don't make this about adding jobs----- it's abou tth enumber of QUALIFYING aircraft you have taken delivery of since a certain date- plain and simple. If you cant find a place for a POS turboprop, that's not UALs, UAL furloughees, or anyone else's problem , but your own. it's JET 4 jobs, not PROPs 4 Jobs.


I'm waiting to hear from the MEC on this one and will see where it goes-- I agree it perpetuates the problem by putting furloughees in the right seat of a job at 1/2 the pay and plane they were flying, but it also gives an opportunity, should the furloughee want it to make a little more than unemployment, or make something when it runs out.

The company should live up to the agreement and why wouldn't they want more experienced pilots as fo's in this current climate anyway--.

SKIPPY.

Also, Contrail is on to something regarding the way the movement will happen--- i've spoken to many furloughees and they have the same mentality that movement will be quick and upwards due to many factors ( fleet, pilot's not returning, pilots delaying callback, pilots retirement, medicals etc) so i think when the recalls happen things will get interesting real quick.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Skippy,

If you want to fly these RJs in the left seat, why don't you negotiate to have United fly them? Then you can sit in whatever seat you want.

 

[waveflyer]

I have no problem with UA furloughs coming over, and taking their place at the bottom of the list. The integrity of the seniority system has to be preserved. We did it before, and we'll do it again. But as has been stated, that requires qualifying airplanes, AND positions being created. Right now only one of those has been met.

Look- the problem begins and ends with the weakness of major airline pilots and unions-and the abrogation of contracts through the bankruptcy process- Regional pilots have little to no say in what flying gets offered them. It was and continues to be major airline pilots who allow their scope to be loosened.

That being said- when I flew the rj- I was never under the impression that I was flying MY company's passengers. I find it ironic that you think what is going on resembles on any level "integrity of the seniority system." the whole purpose of regionals is to divide and cut up our seniority system. And we've fallen for it at every step.

 

[waveflyer]

The statement in bold above is absolutely the funniest thing i've read all week.

There were no jobs created at skywest, so therefore the furloughees are not entitled to displace anyone from that carrier.

Funny you say that-
Skywest doesn't create any job by itself- it flies other companies passengers- but what was traditionally skywest flying is the Brasilia flying. That is shrinking. They are not furloughing ONLY because they are taking on more RJs. RJs that under the agreement with united, would be flown by UAL furloughees. Why should UAL pilots be on the street when it's the Brasilia flying that is shrinking? Not the qualifying RJs...

I think the difference in my attitude is that I never got into regional flying even considering it could be a career. I got into it to qualify myself for a major, not to encourage the transfer of major airline flying to my regional. The whole purpose of the "regional" sector is to get around seniority and higher pay. Sorry that pisses you off. It does me too

 

[PCL_128]

Back to the original point before you sidetracked it...Waveflyer advocated mainline pilots coming in at the top and flushing regional pilots...That's exactly what these agreements do....Then y'all wonder why ALPA lacks credibility at a carrier like Skywest....They are smarter than you and the rest of the ALPA stooges....

Joey, these agreements are all voluntary. Some carriers accept them, some don't. They weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. Nothing is ever forced on them. With ALPA, the Skywest pilots would never have to worry about some super-seniority flowback affecting them unless they agreed to it. As it stands right now, management could agree to it without even asking their permission. I wonder what management would say if UAL came to them and said "we've worked out a deal with UAL ALPA to allow you to have 100 86-seat jets with a guaranteed profit margin, but it comes with the requirement that you let the UAL furloughees occupy the left seats until they're recalled." Think Jerry would turn down all that revenue? Not a chance in hell. He'd screw over his pilots, and they wouldn't be able to say a damned thing about it.

Yeah, they've much safer without ALPA representation.

 

[Skippy]

Skippy,

If you want to fly these RJs in the left seat, why don't you negotiate to have United fly them? Then you can sit in whatever seat you want.

joe, i haven't once discussed the j4j agreement as being one for the furloughees to be in the LEFT seat--- the agreement was the FO seat- and all i am saying is that the UX carriers live up to their end of the LOA-- for if it wasnt for said LOA they wouldnt be getting the qualifying aircraft-- It appears the UX carriers not adhereing to the LOA are trying to have their cake and eat it too and not reciprocate to the very people that are making their company and pilots thrive and prosper.

I cant make it any simpler than that-- im not upset that the flowbacks arent in captain slots--- it would be nice, but that wasnt what was negotiated- so think of this:

1. either live up to the agreed to and negotiated LOA or simply give back or take out the qualifying aircraft

or 2. from now on, you dont get any more qualifying aircraft unless we get the left seats. I wonder how quick i'd be in class for the right seat with that threat.

asking me to negotiate stuff is like me asking you to do one of the above- we both have no say so all im saying is both companies should live up to the LOA------ UA already has since your flying revenue with those planes in UA colors-- now reciprocate , that's all im requesting.


The sad part is being a furloughee , what remedies do i and others have, and what compensation should be due us.




SKIPPY

 

[SnowBoardBum]

I say SkyWest hire the UAL furloughees to the bottom of the list to meet the requirements of the LOA then furlough their a$$.

 

[FSIGRAD]

I not sure how many "qualifying aircraft" Shuttle America has added recently but my guess is zero. If anything we (RAH) are pulling 7 145's because UAL is asking for a 20% decrease in rates. BB called it "obscene".

 

[sstearns2]

Joey, these agreements are all voluntary. Some carriers accept them, some don't. They weigh the pros and cons and make a decision. Nothing is ever forced on them. With ALPA, the Skywest pilots would never have to worry about some super-seniority flowback affecting them unless they agreed to it. As it stands right now, management could agree to it without even asking their permission. I wonder what management would say if UAL came to them and said "we've worked out a deal with UAL ALPA to allow you to have 100 86-seat jets with a guaranteed profit margin, but it comes with the requirement that you let the UAL furloughees occupy the left seats until they're recalled." Think Jerry would turn down all that revenue? Not a chance in hell. He'd screw over his pilots, and they wouldn't be able to say a damned thing about it.

Yeah, they've much safer without ALPA representation.

I've flown for Skywest for 8 years now and I can pretty much assure you that Jerry would turn down any deal that put outside pilots anywhere but the bottom of our seniority list. Do you think ALPA and UAL were not pushing for that last time? Do you think ALPA national wouldn't be doing everything they could to get UAL pilots in the left seat of our airplanes even if Skywest was part of ALPA?

I'd love to see the furloughed UAL pilots back at Skywest. It was a great group of guys last time.

Scott

 

[AA717driver]

The whole idea behind flowbacks is that the regionals have profited dramatically from mainline downsizing--to the detriment of the pilots flowing back.

At AA, mainline downsized, Eagle doubled in size.

UAL is parking the 737's, flying picked up by the RJ's.

Pretty simple equation. Who is to blame? Everyone who has been associated with a Legacy airline for the past 20 years. Unions were asleep at the wheel. Management took advantage of it.

Pilots are paying for it.

TC