UA "national seniority list"

[jumppilot]

Let's see we have 2 years and 9 months left until we start retiring in force again yet your "conservative" estimate is that in 2 years and 3 months you will move up 20%. What 1 in 5 pilots are going to retire in a span of 27 months?? You really believe that?
If we merge I hope you are right, at that point there would be nothing to worry about. One more thing, all of us have our opinion on this crap and like to fling the mud around but reality is none of us will have a say so sit back and enjoy the ride. We will ALL still be better off than most of the nation.

CAL is losing about 100 a year, even during these lean retirement years. 20% may be a bit high, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to move up 500 (10%)

 

[IAHERJ]

CAL is losing about 100 a year, even during these lean retirement years. 20% may be a bit high, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to move up 500 (10%)

My numbers also account for "movement" due to aircraft deliveries and fleet growth. Not just retirements. In 2018, UAL begins to have huge retirement #'s as well which also help a combined carrier. Again, just my opinion. Not meant to be gospel. And johonsorod is correct. The arbitrator will have the last say, all we should be doing is enjoying the ride.

 

[eaglesview]

My numbers also account for "movement" due to aircraft deliveries and fleet growth. Not just retirements. In 2018, UAL begins to have huge retirement #'s as well which also help a combined carrier. Again, just my opinion. Not meant to be gospel. And johonsorod is correct. The arbitrator will have the last say, all we should be doing is enjoying the ride.

You are absolutley correct about that. I have read that in life most of what we spend our time worrying about never comes true.

 

[Splert]

A national seniority list is not possible without an Act from Congress.

Seniority is something that is negotiated or agreed to with the carrier you work for.

For a national seniority list to work then each pilot group would have to negoiate with the airline it works at for seniority rights for other pilots that are not on the seniority list at that time. Every airline would have to agree.

What are you willing to give up in pay and benefits in order to secure a new contract provision that extends seniority of pilots not on the current seniority list?

ALPA has zero to do with the lack of creation of a National Seniority List instead it is the simple fact that seniority is not a right is a negotiated contract provision.

I don't see UAL, DAL, US, FedEx, Alaska and HAL management EVER agreeing to a contract provision that grants seniority to pilots that it never hired.

 

[waveflyer]

It would have to have strong leadership at ALPA national- but it could be done

 

[Splert]

It would have to have strong leadership at ALPA national- but it could be done

Seniority is negoiated and unless every airline agrees then - even new airlines - then it will never happen. This is not an ALPA issue. It is the nature of how seniority is created that is the problem not ALPA or SWAPA or any other union.

HAL has no interest in extending seniority to former Midwest pilots when it adds A330s. They would rather control its cost with new hires and not hire 25 plus year pilots who would be due max CA pay.

If ALPA had stong leadership it might as well invent cold fusion too.

 

[waveflyer]

I think you're limiting the possibilities of how it could be done

 

[contrail67]

-- they got ALPA-N to change seniority integration policy last year

-- their company placed notional orders for lots of planes

-- now they're asking for a national seniority list by date of hire

They're about four moves ahead of the pilot group of the airline they're going to merge with.

So I have been in ALPA for 18 years...all of that time will count???

 

[Mr.B]

So I have been in ALPA for 18 years...all of that time will count???

Yes.

Lets say you're in the bricklayers and tile setters union. Company A hired you as an apprentice and eventually you gained enough experience to make journeyman with an associated payscale.

Now you leave company A after 5 years for whatever reason and company B hires you. You go to B at 5th year pay, but you go to the bottom of the seniority list. From a pilots standpoint, whats wrong with that? The new guys are not taking anything away from those more senior. Some of you whiners need to realize this.

Nowhere has it been said the former A employee is going to take your seat/domicile/vacation so relax.

But as with any industry, construction or airlines, there are management shenanigans.

 

[Splert]

I think you're limiting the possibilities of how it could be done

Show me how.

I'm all eyes.

 

[eaglesview]

All this talk about the national seniority list is really a waste of time. I do not believe it will happen. At best the pilot unions<not just ALPA, may pick a date and move forward with it from that point but that is it. Frankly I don't think that will happen either.

Back to the original post. I don't see anything in the changes to the ALPA merger policy that say anything about a national seniority list. I think folks got off track and just ran with it all Forest Gump like.

 

[contrail67]

Yes.

Lets say you're in the bricklayers and tile setters union. Company A hired you as an apprentice and eventually you gained enough experience to make journeyman with an associated payscale.

Now you leave company A after 5 years for whatever reason and company B hires you. You go to B at 5th year pay, but you go to the bottom of the seniority list. From a pilots standpoint, whats wrong with that? The new guys are not taking anything away from those more senior. Some of you whiners need to realize this.

Nowhere has it been said the former A employee is going to take your seat/domicile/vacation so relax.



But as with any industry, construction or airlines, there are management shenanigans.

So is this in the works or is this a pipe dream....

 

[Mr.B]

So is this in the works or is this a pipe dream....

The last UAL MEC administration was talking about it early on but it just kind of went away....at least I never heard anything.

 

[flygirlqt]

All this hoopla about a NSL is doing nothing but diverting attention from the continual failures of ALPA national.

 

[flygirlqt]

ALPA 115th Regular Executive Council Meeting January 12-14, 2010


Wednesday, January 13, 2010

AI #27 – Report of the Career Security Protocol Committee
CSPC Chairman Captain Tom Crank (ALA) reported on consensus objectives and concepts for implementing them. The Committee is scheduled to meet by teleconference later in January to address the concept of longevity credit for ALPA pilots whose careers have been disrupted. They will report again with recommendations in April, with the intention to submit a final report to the Executive Board in May.




Thursday, January 14, 2010


SUBJECT
Report of the Career Security Protocol Committee

AGENDA ITEM NUMBER
AI #27


FINAL RESOLUTION
WHEREAS at the direction of the September 2008 Executive Board, the President appointed a Career Security Protocol Committee whose task is to address the issues related to development of a national seniority protocol, together with a proposed method for ALPA governing body approval of a national seniority protocol that includes a prior comprehensive membership communications program and methods for implementation of a national seniority protocol through collective bargaining negotiations, and

WHEREAS the Career Security Protocol Committee made an interim report at the January 2010 Executive Council meeting,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Council receive the report of the Career Security Protocol Committee, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Career Security Protocol Committee report as directed, with recommendations, at the April 2010 Executive Council meeting.


Move: Couette
Second: Sluys
Vote: Unanimous

----------------------------------------------------------------------





Establish ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date of hire...Mandatory negotiated use of ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date of hire.



REPORT of the
CAREER SECURITY PROTOCOL COMMITTEE
to the
EXECUTIVE BOARD
October 2009
· Mandatory negotiated use of ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date
of hire (with some allowance to be developed for relative positions on current merged carrier
lists that are not based on date of hire), for pilots unemployed because of furlough or carrier
shutdown, to fill all “new hire� vacancies on ALPA represented carriers, with pilots entitled to
full seniority and longevity credit accrued at prior ALPA represented carrier upon employment,
subject only to a restriction on exercising seniority for bidding purposes until contract bid
restrictions upon “new hire� position are fulfilled


· Establish ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date of hire (with some
allowance to be developed for relative positions on current merged carrier lists that are not
based on date of hire)


· Pilots unemployed because of furlough or carrier shutdown to have right to “bid,� in order on
NSL, for any “new hire� (growth) vacancies on any ALPA represented carrier; ALPA to
establish and administer growth vacancy bid site for this purpose; most senior pilot on NSL to
be “awarded� growth vacancy; pilot to give up recall rights if furloughee upon completion of
satisfactory completion of training; carrier can hire “off the street� if no bid for the position by
NSL pilot


· Pilots entitled to full seniority and longevity credit accrued at prior ALPA represented carrier
upon employment, subject only to a restriction on exercising seniority for bidding purposes until
standard contract bid restrictions upon “new hire� (growth vacancy) position are fulfilled


· Non-ALPA pilot groups to be integrated into the NSL if they secure ALPA representation or
independent union merges with ALPA by set cutoff date; pilot group that obtains ALPA
representation or merges with ALPA at later date forfeits one year of seniority for each year
after NSL is implemented; pilot group on airline established after NSL implemented will be
subject to time limit cutoff date