UA "national seniority list"

[chppr5]

Ummm.... as a 2007 CAL hire I am able to hold 737 FO or 757/767 in any base we have, comfortably. A 97 hire is probably in the same position with regards to the left seat.

At United, the 97 hire is a reserve narrow-body FO and a 98 hire is on the street. I don't expect to move up or get a "quick upgrade", but I don't think that wanting to maintain my current status and percentage in base is greedy.

DOH would shove me to the street and bring a UA pilot back in my seat? I don't think that's fair. You are what you were before the merger, after the merger, IMO.

Thats fine, you guys can keep your seniority at EWR, IAH, CLE and GUM, as long as we have a 5-10 year fence on bases and number of wide body a/c each of us bring to the merger. By the time the fences come down retirements and industry recovery should smooth out integration.....Actually a 98 hire at UAL is a narrow body line holder.

 

[IAHERJ]

Thats fine, you guys can keep your seniority at EWR, IAH, CLE and GUM, as long as we have a 5-10 year fence on bases and number of wide body a/c each of us bring to the merger. By the time the fences come down retirements and industry recovery should smooth out integration.....Actually a 98 hire at UAL is a narrow body line holder.

Sounds good to me. 5 year fence on base and equipment would work and every 787 that comes on property during that time goes to our side of the fence. When the fence comes down, there will most likely be 25 787's on property along with 22 777's and 20 something 767's on the CAL side. Not as many wide-bodies as UAL but a significant increase in the number of wide-bodies on property today at CAL. That equates to career progression/expectations that CAL pilots have today. Combine that with retirements at CAL ramping up again in 2012 and you have a lot of expected movement at CAL. You can't argue with that. I'm all for combining with UAL if it means the industry will stabilize and the combination will be a power player on the world stage. I'm just not buying the argument of DOH from pilots on the street at UAL. I feel for them but am at a loss as to why pilots who have been working their butts off for the past 5 years at CAL should suddenly trade places with them because our two companies decide to merge. I'd like to see a joint venture between the two for the next few years benefit both airlines and recalls at UAL occur. When there are no pilots on furlough, merge the airlines much like NWA/DAL where relative seniority will seem a bit more fair to the UAL guys. Just my opinion as a CAL pilot at around 80% seniority system wide(Full disclosure).

 

[Mamma]

I don't see a national seniority list ever working out. Those that compare our profession to architects, lawyers and doctors in terms of portability and pay are missing a major point.

Here is an example:
A lawyer is brought into a firm out of law school. The lawyer then starts working cases and over time gains experience but most importantly brings money into the firm. The lawyer then wants to go work for another firm. Well, if he did not make his previous firm much money (lost most of his cases), then his compensation package will be small or he will not be hired. If he did well and made his previous firm lots of money then he can command a higher salary. Or maybe the lawyer has a unique skill set that an employer is looking for. The point is, the lawyer's performance is a known and compensation is based of past results. He has differentiated himself from the next guy.

Now comes us airline pilots. All major airline pilots can fly an ILS, run checklists and deal with emergencies. We are all standardized. There is no exceptionalism or rewards for exceptionalism. Say I work for United and want to take advantage of a national seniority list and transfer over to Delta. What do I bring to the table that 5000 other pilots don't have? Why would Delta want to hire me and pay me 10 year scale vs hiring a new guy that can do pretty much what I can do? Not going to happen.

Say my airline goes out of business and I am on the street. I send in a resume to Delta asking them to hire me. Because I am a 10 year FO on the national seniority list, I can command 10 year pay scales. Why would Delta hire me instead of a new first year guy? They won't and we cannot force a company to hire someone they don't want.

We are like bus drivers, taxi drivers and other standardized jobs. If you drive a bus and go to another bus company, you will get the standard starting wage.

 

[CopilotDoug]

One pilot group trying to ******************** over another pilot group. ALPA unity at its best!

 

[waveflyer]

Mamma-
I disagree that that is how a national seniority list would work. If you fly at republic/shuttle/chautaqua- on the USAIr side- you don't interview to be based out of Chicago on the united side- or if you're at CO ewr 737, you don't interview to go to the 777 out of iah -
when there's a spot open it goes in seniority order-
a natioanl seniority list could work the same way w/ a little work and foresight by alpa.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Ummm.... as a 2007 CAL hire I am able to hold 737 FO or 757/767 in any base we have, comfortably. A 97 hire is probably in the same position with regards to the left seat.

At United, the 97 hire is a reserve narrow-body FO and a 98 hire is on the street. I don't expect to move up or get a "quick upgrade", but I don't think that wanting to maintain my current status and percentage in base is greedy.

DOH would shove me to the street and bring a UA pilot back in my seat? I don't think that's fair. You are what you were before the merger, after the merger, IMO.

Well, I don't want to sound like Mr. Roger's but let me help you learn a few 'new words' just three; 'Fences, Conditions and Restrictions'

Any merger/integration of seniority whether done by DOH or otherwise, should contain specific Fences, Conditions and Restrictions; then your concerns are addressed and if done right, offer protection for everyone involved.

As far as a UAL/CAL merger; just a some thoughts from someone who doesn't work for either carrier. But, if done right, could create a Powerful Global carrier; with 'HUGE Asian presence' major market on the west coast of the U.S. (LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA), major hubs in prime markets covering most areas of the country (IAH, ORD, DEN, EWR, etc).

-In short, once the world economy comes back (even if not as strong as it once was, still), a carrier that would be a Strong 'revenue generation' machine. Thus, able to 'pay' higher wages and benefits; then F/O pay would be back to what it once was, so 'if' maybe you had to wait just a few years longer to be 'El Capitan Grande' you would be making much more than just a 'living wage, bus driver pay'

BUT, NOTHING will change as long as it is 'ME ME ME ME' just give me that 'left seat' I Want, I Want, and so on!!!!!!

Just my thoughts, many of the 'so called pilots' on this board makes me SICK, because wayyyyy to many will stab another pilot in the back just to get to that precious 'left seat' and Management will 'laugh their a$$ off' because someday, someday, they know that they can use that pilot that you stabbed in the back, to 'cut your throat'!!!!!! At least a little Truth in all that.

Until ALL pilots in this country work as ONE; this will continue to be 'just a job' (or alittle better than others), but NOT ever again, a PROFESSION.

The Lufthansa pilots went on strike to say, if it say 'LUFTHANSA' on the side of the plane, or on the flight# then it is ALL covered by ONE CONTRACT, peroid!!!!!!

When EVER PILOT in this country 'walks for at least a day or two' to say the same thing!!!! Then I will be impressed.

Sorry for the long 'rant' but thought it had to be said...

For what its worth.

PD

 

[Mamma]

Mamma-
I disagree that that is how a national seniority list would work. If you fly at republic/shuttle/chautaqua- on the USAIr side- you don't interview to be based out of Chicago on the united side- or if you're at CO ewr 737, you don't interview to go to the 777 out of iah -
when there's a spot open it goes in seniority order-
a natioanl seniority list could work the same way w/ a little work and foresight by alpa.

My point was how does ALPA get a company to hire a higher seniority pilot at a higher payscale when they could just as easy hire a new guy? Sure they could get the person interviewed due to his/her seniority but wouldn't the company go with their best interest and hire the cheap guy?

What I would like to see is a standardized payscale based on equipment that removes seniority from the equation. Make longevity/seniority a minor issue relegated to vacations and line bidding.

Example: a national payscale for 737s being $120/hr for FOs and $200/hr for captains. Longevity would provide more vacation days/higher 401 contributions, upgrade, line and vacation bidding. Companies could pay more but the baseline would be set. Unions could negotiate for more also.

This way, if my airline goes out of business and I was a 737 pilot making $120 hr, I could go to another outfit and fly 737s for $120/hr. Benefits and upgrade would be in line with what each individual union negotiates.

Seniority needs to be removed from the pay equation if we want to avoid starting over each time an airline goes under.

 

[C Festerpuss]

One little problem with ALPA is in the organization itself. These critical decisions are made by an executive committee not by the rank and file. Any decision to change anything regarding seniority should go out for membership ratification.

The person missing in this equation is the line pilot.

 

[saabservant]

"Career Expectations/Progression". What a joke, there is NO SUCH THING, in the unregulated, recessionary, post-911 airline world.
At the regional, I "expected" to hold jet Captain in my hometown, but growth at the '"other" regional partner, fleet retirements, and phony bankruptcy killed that.
At UAL, I was told they were hiring 300 after me. That went to being in the last class, to the first of 1400+ furloughs. Now I work in a friggin shopping mall.....

Expectations? very specious in this business. Same word of warning to those building ratings....

The only thing I "expect" now is to be stapled to the bottom of any merger.
What was that Menken quote? Raise the flag and slit throats?.....

 

[nimtz]

National Seniority list. So we are guaranteeing that one airline will pay many training cycles because another folded. Good luck with that one fellas.

 

[IAHERJ]

Then maybe UAL needs to go it alone. I'd be happy with CAL doing what it is doing and if my "Expectations" are not met, it will be an outside force causing the disruption, not a merger with UAL. You are correct that things happen. Problem is I accepted employment with a carrier that was growing and hiring during a mini bull market and one that has ridden out this recession better than other airlines. As retirements pick up pace at the same time aircraft deliveries(WB and LNB) continue to come online it is the common opinion that one might see movement on a seniority list at a healthy carrier coming out of a recession. This is not some irrational, overreaching goal. Granted I am not going out making large purchases on credit cards expecting to hold 777 FO or 737 CA next year. I think a conservative estimate would call for 20% movement on the CAL seniority list over the next 5 years(very conservative). Not knowing the retirement numbers at UAL, I can't speak for the UAL pilot group. I do know that there are little to no planned aircraft deliveries in the next 5 years.
I can't even begin know how if feels to be furloughed. Perhaps I will walk in your shoes one day. I sincerely hope UAL finds a way to grow and recall all of you effected by the mismanagement you have endured over the past decade. If we do merge, I hope we can do our bests to keep the personal feelings out of the cockpit.

 

[Shrek]

Then maybe UAL needs to go it alone. I'd be happy with CAL doing what it is doing and if my "Expectations" are not met, it will be an outside force causing the disruption, not a merger with UAL. You are correct that things happen. Problem is I accepted employment with a carrier that was growing and hiring during a mini bull market and one that has ridden out this recession better than other airlines. As retirements pick up pace at the same time aircraft deliveries(WB and LNB) continue to come online it is the common opinion that one might see movement on a seniority list at a healthy carrier coming out of a recession. This is not some irrational, overreaching goal. Granted I am not going out making large purchases on credit cards expecting to hold 777 FO or 737 CA next year. I think a conservative estimate would call for 20% movement on the CAL seniority list over the next 5 years(very conservative). Not knowing the retirement numbers at UAL, I can't speak for the UAL pilot group. I do know that there are little to no planned aircraft deliveries in the next 5 years.
I can't even begin know how if feels to be furloughed. Perhaps I will walk in your shoes one day. I sincerely hope UAL finds a way to grow and recall all of you effected by the mismanagement you have endured over the past decade. If we do merge, I hope we can do our bests to keep the personal feelings out of the cockpit.

Absolutely right............I am a UAL furloughee and I want to come back to the job BUT NOT at the expense of a CAL pilot. If we merge then we need to start working together to make it a career worth coming back to.

Be safe.

 

[Deerkiller]

Well, I don't want to sound like Mr. Roger's but let me help you learn a few 'new words' just three; 'Fences, Conditions and Restrictions'

Any merger/integration of seniority whether done by DOH or otherwise, should contain specific Fences, Conditions and Restrictions; then your concerns are addressed and if done right, offer protection for everyone involved.

As far as a UAL/CAL merger; just a some thoughts from someone who doesn't work for either carrier. But, if done right, could create a Powerful Global carrier; with 'HUGE Asian presence' major market on the west coast of the U.S. (LAX, SFO, PDX, SEA), major hubs in prime markets covering most areas of the country (IAH, ORD, DEN, EWR, etc).

-In short, once the world economy comes back (even if not as strong as it once was, still), a carrier that would be a Strong 'revenue generation' machine. Thus, able to 'pay' higher wages and benefits; then F/O pay would be back to what it once was, so 'if' maybe you had to wait just a few years longer to be 'El Capitan Grande' you would be making much more than just a 'living wage, bus driver pay'

BUT, NOTHING will change as long as it is 'ME ME ME ME' just give me that 'left seat' I Want, I Want, and so on!!!!!!

Just my thoughts, many of the 'so called pilots' on this board makes me SICK, because wayyyyy to many will stab another pilot in the back just to get to that precious 'left seat' and Management will 'laugh their a$$ off' because someday, someday, they know that they can use that pilot that you stabbed in the back, to 'cut your throat'!!!!!! At least a little Truth in all that.

Until ALL pilots in this country work as ONE; this will continue to be 'just a job' (or alittle better than others), but NOT ever again, a PROFESSION.

The Lufthansa pilots went on strike to say, if it say 'LUFTHANSA' on the side of the plane, or on the flight# then it is ALL covered by ONE CONTRACT, peroid!!!!!!

When EVER PILOT in this country 'walks for at least a day or two' to say the same thing!!!! Then I will be impressed.

Sorry for the long 'rant' but thought it had to be said...

For what its worth.

PD

Where did you get the ME ME ME attitude from his post? He said he wanted his status and percentage post merger.

 

[eaglesview]

Then maybe UAL needs to go it alone. I'd be happy with CAL doing what it is doing and if my "Expectations" are not met, it will be an outside force causing the disruption, not a merger with UAL. You are correct that things happen. Problem is I accepted employment with a carrier that was growing and hiring during a mini bull market and one that has ridden out this recession better than other airlines. As retirements pick up pace at the same time aircraft deliveries(WB and LNB) continue to come online it is the common opinion that one might see movement on a seniority list at a healthy carrier coming out of a recession. This is not some irrational, overreaching goal. Granted I am not going out making large purchases on credit cards expecting to hold 777 FO or 737 CA next year. I think a conservative estimate would call for 20% movement on the CAL seniority list over the next 5 years(very conservative). Not knowing the retirement numbers at UAL, I can't speak for the UAL pilot group. I do know that there are little to no planned aircraft deliveries in the next 5 years.
I can't even begin know how if feels to be furloughed. Perhaps I will walk in your shoes one day. I sincerely hope UAL finds a way to grow and recall all of you effected by the mismanagement you have endured over the past decade. If we do merge, I hope we can do our bests to keep the personal feelings out of the cockpit.

Let's see we have 2 years and 9 months left until we start retiring in force again yet your "conservative" estimate is that in 2 years and 3 months you will move up 20%. What 1 in 5 pilots are going to retire in a span of 27 months?? You really believe that?
If we merge I hope you are right, at that point there would be nothing to worry about. One more thing, all of us have our opinion on this crap and like to fling the mud around but reality is none of us will have a say so sit back and enjoy the ride. We will ALL still be better off than most of the nation.

 

[johnsonrod]

Quit fighting, it will all go the way of Delta and Northwest. Relative seniority will rule, and hopefully you will get a raise in a joint contract beforehand. Don´t stress out so much, arbitrators will decide for you.

 

[jumppilot]

Let's see we have 2 years and 9 months left until we start retiring in force again yet your "conservative" estimate is that in 2 years and 3 months you will move up 20%. What 1 in 5 pilots are going to retire in a span of 27 months?? You really believe that?
If we merge I hope you are right, at that point there would be nothing to worry about. One more thing, all of us have our opinion on this crap and like to fling the mud around but reality is none of us will have a say so sit back and enjoy the ride. We will ALL still be better off than most of the nation.

CAL is losing about 100 a year, even during these lean retirement years. 20% may be a bit high, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to move up 500 (10%)

 

[IAHERJ]

CAL is losing about 100 a year, even during these lean retirement years. 20% may be a bit high, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to move up 500 (10%)

My numbers also account for "movement" due to aircraft deliveries and fleet growth. Not just retirements. In 2018, UAL begins to have huge retirement #'s as well which also help a combined carrier. Again, just my opinion. Not meant to be gospel. And johonsorod is correct. The arbitrator will have the last say, all we should be doing is enjoying the ride.

 

[eaglesview]

My numbers also account for "movement" due to aircraft deliveries and fleet growth. Not just retirements. In 2018, UAL begins to have huge retirement #'s as well which also help a combined carrier. Again, just my opinion. Not meant to be gospel. And johonsorod is correct. The arbitrator will have the last say, all we should be doing is enjoying the ride.

You are absolutley correct about that. I have read that in life most of what we spend our time worrying about never comes true.

 

[Splert]

A national seniority list is not possible without an Act from Congress.

Seniority is something that is negotiated or agreed to with the carrier you work for.

For a national seniority list to work then each pilot group would have to negoiate with the airline it works at for seniority rights for other pilots that are not on the seniority list at that time. Every airline would have to agree.

What are you willing to give up in pay and benefits in order to secure a new contract provision that extends seniority of pilots not on the current seniority list?

ALPA has zero to do with the lack of creation of a National Seniority List instead it is the simple fact that seniority is not a right is a negotiated contract provision.

I don't see UAL, DAL, US, FedEx, Alaska and HAL management EVER agreeing to a contract provision that grants seniority to pilots that it never hired.

 

[waveflyer]

It would have to have strong leadership at ALPA national- but it could be done

 

[Splert]

It would have to have strong leadership at ALPA national- but it could be done

Seniority is negoiated and unless every airline agrees then - even new airlines - then it will never happen. This is not an ALPA issue. It is the nature of how seniority is created that is the problem not ALPA or SWAPA or any other union.

HAL has no interest in extending seniority to former Midwest pilots when it adds A330s. They would rather control its cost with new hires and not hire 25 plus year pilots who would be due max CA pay.

If ALPA had stong leadership it might as well invent cold fusion too.

 

[waveflyer]

I think you're limiting the possibilities of how it could be done

 

[contrail67]

-- they got ALPA-N to change seniority integration policy last year

-- their company placed notional orders for lots of planes

-- now they're asking for a national seniority list by date of hire

They're about four moves ahead of the pilot group of the airline they're going to merge with.

So I have been in ALPA for 18 years...all of that time will count???

 

[Mr.B]

So I have been in ALPA for 18 years...all of that time will count???

Yes.

Lets say you're in the bricklayers and tile setters union. Company A hired you as an apprentice and eventually you gained enough experience to make journeyman with an associated payscale.

Now you leave company A after 5 years for whatever reason and company B hires you. You go to B at 5th year pay, but you go to the bottom of the seniority list. From a pilots standpoint, whats wrong with that? The new guys are not taking anything away from those more senior. Some of you whiners need to realize this.

Nowhere has it been said the former A employee is going to take your seat/domicile/vacation so relax.

But as with any industry, construction or airlines, there are management shenanigans.

 

[Splert]

I think you're limiting the possibilities of how it could be done

Show me how.

I'm all eyes.

 

[eaglesview]

All this talk about the national seniority list is really a waste of time. I do not believe it will happen. At best the pilot unions<not just ALPA, may pick a date and move forward with it from that point but that is it. Frankly I don't think that will happen either.

Back to the original post. I don't see anything in the changes to the ALPA merger policy that say anything about a national seniority list. I think folks got off track and just ran with it all Forest Gump like.

 

[contrail67]

Yes.

Lets say you're in the bricklayers and tile setters union. Company A hired you as an apprentice and eventually you gained enough experience to make journeyman with an associated payscale.

Now you leave company A after 5 years for whatever reason and company B hires you. You go to B at 5th year pay, but you go to the bottom of the seniority list. From a pilots standpoint, whats wrong with that? The new guys are not taking anything away from those more senior. Some of you whiners need to realize this.

Nowhere has it been said the former A employee is going to take your seat/domicile/vacation so relax.



But as with any industry, construction or airlines, there are management shenanigans.

So is this in the works or is this a pipe dream....

 

[Mr.B]

So is this in the works or is this a pipe dream....

The last UAL MEC administration was talking about it early on but it just kind of went away....at least I never heard anything.

 

[flygirlqt]

All this hoopla about a NSL is doing nothing but diverting attention from the continual failures of ALPA national.

 

[flygirlqt]

ALPA 115th Regular Executive Council Meeting January 12-14, 2010


Wednesday, January 13, 2010

AI #27 – Report of the Career Security Protocol Committee
CSPC Chairman Captain Tom Crank (ALA) reported on consensus objectives and concepts for implementing them. The Committee is scheduled to meet by teleconference later in January to address the concept of longevity credit for ALPA pilots whose careers have been disrupted. They will report again with recommendations in April, with the intention to submit a final report to the Executive Board in May.




Thursday, January 14, 2010


SUBJECT
Report of the Career Security Protocol Committee

AGENDA ITEM NUMBER
AI #27


FINAL RESOLUTION
WHEREAS at the direction of the September 2008 Executive Board, the President appointed a Career Security Protocol Committee whose task is to address the issues related to development of a national seniority protocol, together with a proposed method for ALPA governing body approval of a national seniority protocol that includes a prior comprehensive membership communications program and methods for implementation of a national seniority protocol through collective bargaining negotiations, and

WHEREAS the Career Security Protocol Committee made an interim report at the January 2010 Executive Council meeting,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Council receive the report of the Career Security Protocol Committee, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Career Security Protocol Committee report as directed, with recommendations, at the April 2010 Executive Council meeting.


Move: Couette
Second: Sluys
Vote: Unanimous

----------------------------------------------------------------------





Establish ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date of hire...Mandatory negotiated use of ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date of hire.



REPORT of the
CAREER SECURITY PROTOCOL COMMITTEE
to the
EXECUTIVE BOARD
October 2009
· Mandatory negotiated use of ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date
of hire (with some allowance to be developed for relative positions on current merged carrier
lists that are not based on date of hire), for pilots unemployed because of furlough or carrier
shutdown, to fill all “new hire� vacancies on ALPA represented carriers, with pilots entitled to
full seniority and longevity credit accrued at prior ALPA represented carrier upon employment,
subject only to a restriction on exercising seniority for bidding purposes until contract bid
restrictions upon “new hire� position are fulfilled


· Establish ALPA National Seniority Lists for US and Canada, based on date of hire (with some
allowance to be developed for relative positions on current merged carrier lists that are not
based on date of hire)


· Pilots unemployed because of furlough or carrier shutdown to have right to “bid,� in order on
NSL, for any “new hire� (growth) vacancies on any ALPA represented carrier; ALPA to
establish and administer growth vacancy bid site for this purpose; most senior pilot on NSL to
be “awarded� growth vacancy; pilot to give up recall rights if furloughee upon completion of
satisfactory completion of training; carrier can hire “off the street� if no bid for the position by
NSL pilot


· Pilots entitled to full seniority and longevity credit accrued at prior ALPA represented carrier
upon employment, subject only to a restriction on exercising seniority for bidding purposes until
standard contract bid restrictions upon “new hire� (growth vacancy) position are fulfilled


· Non-ALPA pilot groups to be integrated into the NSL if they secure ALPA representation or
independent union merges with ALPA by set cutoff date; pilot group that obtains ALPA
representation or merges with ALPA at later date forfeits one year of seniority for each year
after NSL is implemented; pilot group on airline established after NSL implemented will be
subject to time limit cutoff date