TWA settlement

[PCL_128]

Yet he's been on here time and time again saying there were no promises of DOH or Relative Seniority. No one believed it.

Facts are facts, no matter how much you may not like them. ALPA never promised anyone any method of integration. In fact, ALPA went out of its way to say that nothing was guaranteed in arbitration.

 

[redflyer65]

Facts are facts. I agree.

So....


Was MK wrong on any of his facts? Did the EVP bloviate on the internal message board about voting No? Was there and email stating the same? Did the email say DOH or RS would carry the day?

 

[PCL_128]

EVPs have opinions like any other pilots, and they have the right to express them. An individual's opinion is not necessarily the same as the union's position, however.

 

[HowardBorden]

EVPs have opinions like any other pilots, and they have the right to express them. An individual's opinion is not necessarily the same as the union's position, however.

I agree EVP's do have a right to express opinions but a lawsuit has been filed contending that when an EVP expresses opinions in a public forum it will be viewed that the EVP is stating official ALPA positions. That very well may be difficult to prove, however it is plausible to infer that the comments made by an individual that holds an elected office can be misconstrued as actual union positions when it is well known that the individual is an office holder.

http://ia700806.us.archive.org/25/items/gov.uscourts.gand.181455/gov.uscourts.gand.181455.1.0.pdf

"Upon information and belief, ALPA deployed Todd Ortscheid, an Executive Vice President of the union, as a stalking horse to dissuade the ALPA MEC and/or AirTran pilots from recognizing that the seniority integration package would have been a highly favorable outcome for the AirTran pilots. In so doing, ALPA sought, falsely, to credit arbitration as an effective manner in which to protect the seniority rights of pilots employed by a financially ailing airline and one which employed far fewer pilots than Southwest. In so doing, ALPA sought, falsely, to make it sound as though an arbitrator would view a date-of-hire approach as a fait accompli, when, in fact, the recent history of seniority integration arbitration proceedings is riddled with cases in which date-of-hire has been largely or entirely disregarded. In acting as it did, ALPA breached its duty of fair representation to its members by acting in a manner that was characterized by bad faith."

stalk-ing horse 1. a false pretext concealing someone's real intentions.

 

[PCL_128]

however it is plausible to infer that the comments made by an individual that holds an elected office can be misconstrued as actual union positions when it is well known that the individual is an office holder.

Not when that individual goes out of his way to make it clear that the opinion being expressed is his alone and not the position of the union. This is from the widely distributed email from the EVP that was mentioned earlier:

"Nothing in this email should be construed as coming from ALPA International, despite my position as an EVP. This email is nothing more than my own personal thoughts as a line pilot at AirTran."

Hard to misconstrue that, huh, Howard?

 

[HowardBorden]

"Nothing in this email should be construed as coming from ALPA International, despite my position as an EVP. This email is nothing more than my own personal thoughts as a line pilot at AirTran."

That is why it is termed "stalking horse", or- a false pretext concealing someone's real intentions.

 

[PCL_128]

That is why it is termed "stalking horse", or- a false pretext concealing someone's real intentions.

That argument falls apart quickly when you find out that ALPA senior staff and officers wanted the first deal to go out. Not that they took an official position or told the MEC what to do, but it was clear what their opinion was. The idea that people who wanted the first deal to go out for a vote would send a "stalking horse" out to kill it is comical. And that's really what is so ridiculous about that lawsuit. It talks out of both sides of its mouth. On the one hand, it claims that ALPA sends a stalking horse EVP out to get the deal killed, but on the other hand it claims that the MEC ignored ALPA advice to send out the deal for a vote. Both are false claims, yet both are conflicting. Only Haber could be so incompetent as to accomplish that.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Not when that individual goes out of his way to make it clear that the opinion being expressed is his alone and not the position of the union. This is from the widely distributed email from the EVP that was mentioned earlier:

"Nothing in this email should be construed as coming from ALPA International, despite my position as an EVP. This email is nothing more than my own personal thoughts as a line pilot at AirTran."

Hard to misconstrue that, huh, Howard?

Todd, I'm here to tell you, ALPA Legal disagrees with your assertion. If what Howard posted is true, I suggest you shut your computer, and call them ASAP. Because if a DFR lawsuit has been filed, ALPA will throw you under the bus so fast your head will spin. I hope you have a personal $100 mllion dollar liability umbrella policy.

 

[PCL_128]

Todd, I'm here to tell you, ALPA Legal disagrees with your assertion. If what Howard posted is true, I suggest you shut your computer, and call them ASAP. Because if a DFR lawsuit has been filed, ALPA will throw you under the bus so fast your head will spin. I hope you have a personal $100 mllion dollar liability umbrella policy.

If I am who you claim I am, don't you think I would know what ALPA Legal really thinks? So either I am who you think I am and ALPA Legal disagrees with you, or I'm not who you claim I am. Either way, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

P.S. Union representatives can't be held personally liable. That's why DFR suits are filed against the union instead of against the reps.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

If I am who you claim I am, don't you think I would know what ALPA Legal really thinks? So either I am who you think I am and ALPA Legal disagrees with you, or I'm not who you claim I am. Either way, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

P.S. Union representatives can't be held personally liable. That's why DFR suits are filed against the union instead of against the reps.

1. You ARE who I said you are.
2. Either you haven't called ALPA Legal or you ignored them, otherwise you wouldn't be on here running your mouth constantly. Even the MEC reps got the memo to stay off the interwebs! Union reps absolutely ARE personally liable for misconduct and malpractice (DFR).
3. I have a very good clue who you are. Anyone in doubt just needs to review your posting history, then look for the slouching schmuck on the back of the ALPA magazine in the cheap brown suit.
4. The TWA pilots got screwed, and now the Airtran pilots got screwed... with your help! And you have the audacity to come on here and continue arguing from such a horrendous position. Really I hope SWA management sees you GK fellatio reference and cans you. Maybe you can go back to Pinnacle.

 

[PCL_128]

:laugh: Clueless.

 

[HowardBorden]

If what Howard posted is true, I suggest you shut your computer, and call them ASAP.

I simply cut and pasted from a lawsuit filed in United States District Court Northern Division. This document is a matter of public record. Anyone can file a lawsuit and recent history excluded, winning a DFR suit is an extremely tall hurdle to overcome.

 

[twepilot]

Toad..What alternate universe are you living in if you think one could not deduce who you are just from the manner and style of your postings much less the content. I too hope you pay soon for your recent disgusting and disturbing comments. Please resign your ALPO EVP and leave this pilot group at once.

RV

 

[Mk3tm]

That argument falls apart quickly when you find out that ALPA senior staff and officers wanted the first deal to go out. Not that they took an official position or told the MEC what to do, but it was clear what their opinion was...

So the "senior staff" wasn't as reckless as the ALPA status reps. Who was that, the secretaries? No surprise, because your average josephine on the street realizes when your company is bought and your new owners are offering you the same position with a 50% pay increase, it's an offer you outta look at.

How do you reckon the ALPA reps reject a deal 7-1 cuz "the seniority wasn't good enuf" and talk tuff about going to arbitration telling pilots "there's nothing to worry about", then just a few weeks later accept a deal with 1-2% better seniority, no money, no 10 yr ATL base, no 850 capt seats, and no furlough protection, UNANIMOUSLY, and tell pilots "you better take this or risk not integrating"?

Remember, the MCO ALPA clowns justified their votes for the worse deal by claiming the lawyers told them "all along" that court challenges and outcomes were totally unpredictable. They didn't bother to report that until it was time to CYA.

 

[redflyer65]

That's because PCL wanted it all.

The gameplan was to downplay the SW contract from day one. Why? Because they knew it would be there in the end. So focus only on seniority. Once seniority was decided, then the money would be there regardless.

Well that changes quickly when Gary guarantees you those pay rates and work rules immediately with other protections for a SL on the table. ALPA overplayed their hand and cost the AirTran pilots literally tens of millions of dollars.

I was in complete disbelief when the MEC voted the deal down. Not because I new it was a great deal, but because I knew things would change quickly..and not for the better.

 

[PCL_128]

I simply cut and pasted from a lawsuit filed in United States District Court Northern Division. This document is a matter of public record. Anyone can file a lawsuit and recent history excluded, winning a DFR suit is an extremely tall hurdle to overcome.

Exactly.

 

[PCL_128]

Toad..What alternate universe are you living in if you think one could not deduce who you are just from the manner and style of your postings much less the content. I too hope you pay soon for your recent disgusting and disturbing comments. Please resign your ALPO EVP and leave this pilot group at once.

RV

Dick, this is an anonymous forum, so I will neither confirm nor deny my identity, but you're free to believe whatever you want.

 

[ironspud]

http://twapilot.org/groupee_files/attachments/3/0/3/3030070966/3030070966_TWA-ALPA_Verdict.pdf?ts=52E6A0A6&key=9D5DC78500D611324CEC131A2ACB3F12&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Ftwapilot.org%2Feve%2Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F4030070966%2FTWA-ALPA_Verdict.pdf

 

[Mk3tm]

...I was in complete disbelief when the MEC voted the deal down. Not because I new it was a great deal, but because I knew things would change quickly..and not for the better.

Well, ALPA knew it too, but not the pilots. The Merger Committee guys told us later that GK had briefed the entire ALPA staff on where this was heading without a pilot vote, complete with warnings about Transtar, apparently. The vice chair on the Merger Committee said none other than our EVP helped cover up the details of that meeting at a time the pilots were begging for info.

That's probably why the ALPA staff wanted the thing to have a vote. Too bad we didn't know until it was too late.

No wonder SWA was pissed. They had an agreement with ALPA only to have ALPA torpedo it by not allowing a pilot vote. ALPA accepted the deal before they rejected it. They were for it before they were against it! Cue the John Kerry voice...

Saved SWA a ton of money GK was trying to pay us. Helped fund the 717 conversion.

 

[twepilot]

"...so I will neither confirm nor deny my identity..."
Why is that Toad? Not proud to have your comments linked to your "identity?" Again, like it even matters Toad. Everyone on here knows who you are...You're in fantasy land if you think your "identity" or cover isn't blown ya stooge.
RV

 

[Clyde Frog]

That's because PCL wanted it all.

The gameplan was to downplay the SW contract from day one. Why? Because they knew it would be there in the end. So focus only on seniority. Once seniority was decided, then the money would be there regardless.

Well that changes quickly when Gary guarantees you those pay rates and work rules immediately with other protections for a SL on the table. ALPA overplayed their hand and cost the AirTran pilots literally tens of millions of dollars.

...and the threats/ultimatums will ultimately cost SWA much more over the long term. It may not be a line item they will see on a financial statement, but it will be there just the same. I have a long time until I retire, but will never lift a finger for this place...well, maybe a certain finger.

 

[redflyer65]

...and the threats/ultimatums will ultimately cost SWA much more over the long term.

Good luck with that Clyde. 1 of 50 thousand. Knock yourself out.

 

[Raoul Duke]

If I am who you claim I am, don't you think I would know what ALPA Legal really thinks? So either I am who you think I am and ALPA Legal disagrees with you, or I'm not who you claim I am. Either way, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

P.S. Union representatives can't be held personally liable. That's why DFR suits are filed against the union instead of against the reps.

Hold on a second - since the $55M payment to TWA pilots was described as a "nuisance" settlement (your words not mine), why wouldn't ALPA avoid the cost and risk of litigation and make a similar offer to the Air Tran pilots. While they may want more, I imagine that amount would take alot of the sting out of their current dispute.

 

[PCL_128]

It's unlikely that that lawsuit will even make it past summary judgment.

 

[XTW]

Flounder!

This guy reminds me of a character on National Lampoon's Animal House.




Group B4
First Officer Todd Ortscheid, AirTran

First Officer Todd Ortscheid was reelected executive vice president, Group B4, of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int?l, on Oct. 17, 2012, at the Association?s biennial Board of Directors meeting. His latest term began on Jan. 1, 2013.
Currently based in Atlanta, First Officer Ortscheid flies the B-717 for AirTran, where he previously served as vice chairman for the AirTran Master Executive Council (MEC). First Officer Ortscheid was also a first officer representative and a member of the MEC Contract Compliance Committee, and led the drive to merge the AirTran pilots? independent union with ALPA.
Before his AirTran experience, First Officer Ortscheid flew for Pinnacle Airlines (now Endeavor Air). While at Pinnacle, he was a local council officer in Detroit. He also served as Strategic Preparedness Committee chairman and was an active member of both the Scheduling and Communications Committees.
As a member of ALPA, First Officer Ortscheid has participated in member organizing drives at Colgan and other carriers.
He resides in Senoia, Ga.




from ALPA's public website

 

[ironspud]

I predict we will see that picture as an avatar someday.

 

[Raoul Duke]

It's unlikely that that lawsuit will even make it past summary judgment.

But isnt that exactly why ALPA would want to offer a nuisance settlement? They can avoid the whole thing altogether. . . Just throw the same pocket change that they paid to TWA (another case that was not supposed to make it past summary judgment) - with the added benefit of not having to spend money for attorneys etc. Besides, it is just insurance money, it is not like dues are affected or that they needed an assessment or something. This way they just avoid the whole thing - win win right?

 

[HowardBorden]

It's unlikely that that lawsuit will even make it past summary judgment.

I can't be bothered to look it up, but what was your prediction on the TWA lawsuit outcome?

 

[PCL_128]

But isnt that exactly why ALPA would want to offer a nuisance settlement?

A nuisance settlement in a case that hasn't even gotten to the summary judgment phase is a few thousand dollars, not millions. When you're confident that a case is going nowhere, there isn't any reason to throw money at it. Remember, ALPA has plenty of in-house attorneys, so legal expenses aren't high for ALPA at the early stages of a case.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Really, all ALPA did with this "nuisance settlement" was encourage the Airtran pilots to push their suit and get their own "nuisance settlement". So Todd, your argument really doesn't hold water.