Trouble at AMR

[G4G5]

Eagle
I see a great deal of "emotion" in G4G5 (a lot of fear too). He comes across as an AA pilot who is not used to "waiting" for anything or anyone to meet his needs.

G4G5
Take a look at my type ratings, can you name 3 better to have on the back of your ticket, if you were looking for a job? Sorry to break it to you, their is no fear here, just a realistic honest opnion. Not much emotion or waiting for my needs to be met(where did you come up with that one?)
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Eagle
Jeff, your (and G4G5's) observations are from the perspective of a "mainline" pilot. Mine is from the OVERWHELMING majority of Eagle pilots.

Our MEC disagrees with several of the proposals in the APA's CURRENT conceptual proposal.

Fact : ALPA National does not need to "look out for us". It is our MEC and our pilot group that will agree or not to give up our contractual rights to our CURRENT aircraft and routes.

G4G5
Enough of this talk, please state EXACTLY where it is written that you have contractual rights to routes controled by AMR? Where is is written that routes can not be transfered by AMR from it's Eagle unit to it's AA mainline unit? Fact you have no control over routes that are owned by the AMR corporation.
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Eagle
We are not inbankruptcy and our contractual rights regarding transfer of assets cannot be unilaterally abrogated by APA or AMR, therefore we have the contractual right to participate in any discussions that directly affect our current operations. For ALPA National to jeoprdize a group they already have a feduciary duty to fairly represent in an effort to attract a seperate pilot group would be a violation of that feduciary duty and would put ALPA Nationals tit in a legal ringer. Again, unlike the U/J4J situation, we have contractual language protecting our current operations.

G4G5
What are you talking about? What's bankruptcy got to do with it? How would it be possible for Eagle to go bankrupt? The last time I checked Eagle was not a publicly traded company, nor was American Airlines. Funny thing, AMR is.

What does U/J4J have to do with it? U does not own J4J. AMR owns Eagle and AMR owns AA mainline. Just by the virtue of the fact that you brought up the TWA/AA merger and Alegheny Mohawk it clear that you don't understand this. Which surprises me, if a 16 year Eagle senior captain whose opnion is the"OVERWHELMING majority of Eagle pilots"does not get it, how can I expect a jr FO to understand it.

You need to get your facts straight. You contract protection issues that you hide behind are only relevant when dealing with another airline. AA mainline is not another airline with resepct to Eagle contract. Eagle is a strategic business unit of the AMR corporation. As such Carty is free to do with it as he pleases as long as he abides by the contract. Your contract has NO protection clauses when it comes to transfering routes to AA mainline. Nor do you have a Scope clause protecting you form a transfer of aircraft to AA mainline. Get this straight. This is not emotion, opnion, "waiting" or fear, this is a fact.
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Eaglefly
It is interesting to note some of those stipulations in the APA's initial proposal :

1.) "Commuter" pilots excluded from development of proposal and subsequent discussions with managment.

G4G5
This is because AA mgt does not need to get Eagle involved. You don't have a Scope clause that restrict ASM growth, that forces the sale of Executive, that limits the number of 70 seat RJ's. That has any restriction on 75,000# flying. If Eagle's opnion was of ANY legal concern to AA mgt then you would have a seat at the table. What does not being invited to the table tell you?
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2.) "mainline" pilots UNILATERALLY determine distribution of aircraft and flying.

G4G5
We have a Scope clause that restrict the number of 70 seat RJ's based upon Eagle ASM's. We also control any thing over 75,000#'s. That's why we are in a position to "UNILATERALLY determine distribution of aircraft and flying". This is a fact of our contract(no emotion, just business)
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3.) "Mainline" pilots given special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.

G4G5
That's because we control the future of the CRJ70. So if Eagle wants to operate more, AA mgt needs to negotiate Scope relief with the APA. When in all reality the ERJ170/195 is the aircraft of the future all of this flying will go to the APA. The mainline pilots are in a position to control Eagle's growth with their Scope clause. It's not the other way around, that is the reason for the special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.
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4.) Only LIMITED number of "commuter" pilots permitted to bid mainline positions at an undetermined future date.

G4G5
This is AA mgt. They are concerned about the future training costs. Why would any AA pilot care where the number behind him came from?
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Eagle
Does this look familiar to anyone ?

Looks like J4J in a slightly prettier dress.

G4G5
J4J is not relevant, nor is the Delta, ASA/Comair or the NWA/Mesaba arrangement.
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Jeff, it seems as though you're saying i.e., "be good little boys and take what you're given by the APA and maybe in 5-8 years we'll throw you a bone".

Ahhh, thanks but no thanks.

G4G5
Ahhh, what choice do you have? With your contact, how are you planning on stoping the reverse code sharing loss of jobs in STL? Or the sale of Executive in SJU? Improve the flow through into mainline? Get pay raises prior to the end of your current contract? Get any of the future RJ70/90 flying? What we are offering is hardly what I would call a bone but if you can answer the above questions without the help of the APA, I would truly be amazed. I am waiting(get it, if not re-read the first paragraph)?
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Eaglefly
Thankfully, if we did not have those protective provisions in our contract, the APA could attempt to just take our operations and to hell with us.

G4G5
What provisions? Please feel free to list specific sections of your contract that protect you from AA mainline. Try to remember why AA mgt has Eagle. To feed, supply mainline and to grow routes for mainline. You will not find any Eagle contract provisions restricting this. If the AMR corporation determines that a particular route would be better served (more profitable with an MD80 vs an RJ70)then it is within their power to transfer the route to AA mainline. If the APA owns ALL flying above 75,000# then any transfer of a 50 seat RJ route to an ERJ170 or a CRJ90 would go to AA mainline. So again, what provisions do you have?
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Eagle fly
When the APA proposes a true "one list" scenario, we'll be there too.

G4G5
The APA is meeting with AA mgt all week. Is the Eagle MEC there?
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But to expect us to just hand over our CURRENT flying and draw a line thru our contractual protections for the APA's promise of a "maybe, kinda, we'll see" future is ludicrous.

But what do I know ?

G4G5
Again the comments about your contract show that you need to talk to a contract administrator about what AMR can and can't do with Eagle. This is not AMR transfering routes to ASA, this is very similar to DAL mgt transfering flying from Delta to ASA/Comair(Delta, Comair and ASA are all strategic business units of the DAL corporation).
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Eagle
I guess I need to do more "research" so I can make some "valid" points and stop being an "emotional" commuter pilot.

G4G5
Nothing more to add, no wise cracks or emotion. Just facts. Please.

 

[Loafman]

Just about every mainline pilot I've talked to since this all came about was extremely doubtful it would ever come to pass. They even apologized for the outright slap in the face to the Eagle pilot group. It seems that G4G5 thinks we all owe him our first born for this wonderful fu#%ing proposal. Well I've got a proposal for ya. As hungry as AMR management is for cost savings, I'll draw up a proposal that has us flying every mainline jet for a fraction of what you arrogant a$$es get for it. I was all about APA protecting my potential career with mainline, but if that's the attitude they're taking, screw em. Spin us off with Executive and reverse code share our a$$es off. I'll get some "RJ" stickers for the 777. It seems "regional" is a pretty loose term these days anyway.

 

[Loafman]

G4G5
That's because we control the future of the CRJ70. So if Eagle wants to operate more, AA mgt needs to negotiate Scope relief with the APA. When in all reality the ERJ170/195 is the aircraft of the future all of this flying will go to the APA. The mainline pilots are in a position to control Eagle's growth with their Scope clause. It's not the other way around, that is the reason for the special seniority and bidding rights at "commuter" division.

This is possibly the stupidest thing I've read yet. The "regional jet" - (I can't see GSO-DFW-BOI in one day as 'regional') will never pay off with it's higher than 737/MD80 seat mile costs with mainline salaries at the helm. There is absolutely no reason mainline pilots deserve any bidding rights at Eagle, unless you are a pilot eligible to flow back. I hear eternal reserve is nice if you're a flow-back, but if the rest of you want to fly the 700, fill out an application. Management has found loophole after loophole in your scope language and APA stepped on it's dick with the sick out a few years back. They no longer carry as much clout as they used to, and with McCain Lott looming around the corner, this whole discussion will be a moot point. If AMR is to survive in this industry, it has to deploy RJs to compete with DAL/DCI, and a leaner, meaner UAL and it's feeder structure.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Rodney King Medeiation!

Can't we all just get along?!

These last few posts are a testment to why I think a One List would bring more harmony (if possible) to the AMR pilot group as a whole. It worked for Eagle when the list became one. The issues of which Eagle carrier would do the flying disappeared, etc.

The assumption of the AE pilots is that the SJ flying will go to Eagle and that any SCOPE will disappear, that Eagle has all the power. At present that is far from true, but let's assume that happens and discuss how that will help your situation (Eaglefly and Loafman, and others AE pilots).

Say the SJs arrive at AE and you get to fly them. Will that help pilots like Eaglefly with 16 years to make it to mainline any sooner? What will the pay be like? Maybe like the ATR 42 VS. the ATR 72, you could make a whole $5 more per hour when you fly it. That industry leading-16-year contract is really kicking in!

The SJ pay should be somewhere between the current RJ and the F100. Wouldn't you like to make a better wage that mirrored your counterparts that fly similar sized equipment or better? Do you think you can do it all on your own with AMR better? Just a few thoughts.

We don't know how the proposal will work out if it will at all, but it is worth taking a look at with an open mind.

If I were still at AE I would be more concerned about getting less restrictive mechanisms for flow through and upgrade, more flexibility. I would illiminate the need to upgrade to RJ or SJ Captain to flow through to mainline for one. With the industry stagnating, the seniority lists will get more senior. An ATR Captain or senior RJ/SJ First Officer should be able to move to the MD80 if he/she had the seniority to do so. Seniority does not always mean someone moves to the biggest equipment. It's a personal choice size vs. quality of life; we should have the ability to choose.....Did I just say size doesn't matter?....I digress.

Nobody has all the answers and we haven't even seen the whole proposal. It sounds like everyone thinks they have the bomb and the reality is no one does. The industry is changing and it will take cohesion among all of the pilot groups and AMR to make this work and I am not just talking about the One List. It's about survival, being competitve in this environment while trying to protect our rice bowl and maintain quality of life.

G4G5 if you would loan me those type ratings or trade them for my HS-125, I could have had a primo job 2 months ago and walk away from all this BS. That would leave another bone at the table for our AE pals. My experience is there is definately a bone coming and it is definately not for the table (dualing banjoos in the background!)

(fade out)

 

[Loafman]

There's a bone coming, alright. And it's pecker shaped.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Loafman

I was putting your parents number on the speed dial when your post arrived. I was going to drop a dime and tell them you're a pilot and don't play piano. But now that I see you have retained a sense of humor, I won't be making that call....for now. But if things get ugly, I may have to use that as a bargaining chip. It's nothing personal, just business without emotion!!!

 

[Loafman]

ROFLMAO

 

[eaglefly]

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look G4G5, I couldn't care less about your type-ratings. Maybe they'll impress a bartender somewhere. Good luck.

AMR is a parent Corporation. They own AA and AMR Eagle. Two SEPERATE Subsidiaries.

Pertinant Excerpts from the CBA between ALPA and AMR Eagle.

Reference : Section 2 DEFINITIONS :

(D) "AMR EAGLE CARRIER", "COMPANY" or "COMPANIES" means a carrier owned by , AND DOING BUSINESS as American Eagle, including but not limited to Executive Airlines, Inc., Flagship Airlines Inc., Simmons Airlines, Inc., or Wings West Airlines Inc.

- Although American Airlines is also owned by the parent Corporation is AA BY DEFINITION considered "the company" for the purposes of this (our) CBA ?

NO.

-Is AA currently "doing business" as American Eagle ?

NO.

Okay, lets digress to Section 1 JOB SECURITY:

(B) SCOPE

1. ALL flying performed on COMPANY aircraft in its scheduled airline service will be performed by PILOTS ON THE SYSTEM SENIORITY LIST, in accordance with the terms of this agreement.

-Is AA "the company" ?

NO.

-Are AA pilots on the (our-Appendix A) "system seniority list".

NO.

note : Our CBA has sections SPECIFICALLY describing the methods for filling "vacancies" by pilots on the (our) system seniority list.



(D) SUCCESSORSHIP

2. In the event the company sells OR TRANSFERS all or a part of the OPERATIONS covered by this agreement, The company will AS A CONDITION of such sale OR TRANSFER , REQUIRE that this Agreement be made BINDING on the purchaser or TRANSFEREE of such operations.

- Is AA (American Airlines) considered the "company" for the purposes of this CBA ?

NO (again).

Therefore would the transfer of the operations covered under our agreement (current fleet/route combination, seniority list and everything else..) to a pilot group and SEPERATE airline NOT part of our CBA be a "transfer of operations" BY DEFINITION.

YES.

Does this mean we have some say in the disposition of our CURRENT aircraft/route structure.

YES.

Although I will be the first to admit our contract is NOTHING to be proud of, it turns out there is a couple of "diamonds in the rough".

SCOPE AND SUCCESSORSHIP.

I mention bankruptcy because it allows contractual protections to be altered as obviously was the case with the TWA acquisition. No opportunity for leverage there.

I mention J4J because the concept proposed by the APA is virtually identical.

G4G5, unlike Mr. Helgeson, you come across as the a perfect example of why the AA pilot group is referred to as "ski-nazi's".

-You profess to lecture other pilots regarding the details and intracacies of the contracts and rights.

-You strengthen the impression that you would love to hose the pilots at Eagle or that some or all of us are "inferior" to your group.

Ex. "AA management does not need to get Eagle involved"

In fact you make many references to "AA managment". Your delusions of grandeur have you confusing AA with AMR (the parent company). You need to understand the differences between AMR, AA and AMR Eagle.

- You first say that J4J is "not relevant" than immeadiately highlight one of my previous points regarding the similarity with J4J - Mainline attempt at Unilateral decisions regarding CURRENT flying we have rights and protections to.

...and since you've brought up "control" and "future" lets discuss that for a minute.

Sould AMR tell the APA to pack sand regarding mainline RJ's what will the APA do ?

Cancel the Executive ASM extention, file grievances and continue to negotiate ?

Ok, then what ?

Request mediation. Fine. That goes on for say a few months then what ?

Declaration of an impasse.

Cooling off.

Last minute negotiations that might fail ?

Then strike ?

WRONG.

Bush PEB nails 60 more days.

Then ? Strike ?

Well, Slick Willy said no several years ago before the 45 million dollar tantrum (arguably, I believe that would have to bump our contract out of first place for biggest blunder by an airline labor union).

Will George W. and HIS republican congress allow the AA pilots to strike over scope and mainline RJ flying with the damage it would do to the economy ?

Don't bet on it.

Does the APA have the political clout on Capital Hill to convince politicians of their woes (not being a member of the AFL-CIO and all) ?

Wouldn't bet on that.

Do you think AMR knows this ?

Most Definitely.

Do You think the APA leadership is worried about this ?

Very likely.

Just how much clout DO you have to force your hand ?

You talk as though you guys call all the shots. You've been smoking the same pipe too long my friend. Its a whole new world and economics rule.

Would I like to get to mainline faster ?

Of course.

Will I participate in a one sided strong-arm to get there ?

Absolutely not !

Will I wholehartedly support a true "one list" scenario negotiated by the two pilot groups involved ?

Absolutely !

Maybe in the future the two pilot groups will forge a workable solution.

Again (ugh !), the stipulations put forward so far are NOT acceptable to the pilots at Eagle.

G4G5, I realize that no amount of information will convince you away from what you want to believe. I will not try to convince you of anything further. Apparently, you have two perceptions of reality.

1.) Your belief of how things are.

2.) Your belief of how things are.

Time will tell whether you get your opportunity to see the Eagle pilots fry.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

Ya know...

G4G5, after reading most of your posts on this thread, I was under the impression that we had an unemotional team player on this board able to truly see and understand issues on both sides of the fence...

And then you dropped that last bomb of a post, which appears to have betrayed your true feelings on the matter - and contrary to what you said repeatedly during that post, emotion DID enter into it. It was very obvious that Eaglefly struck a raw nerve and you blasted him with your true feelings - forget diplomacy.

Sort of reminds me of the fateful last scene in "A Few Good Men" in which Tom Cruise's character goads Jack Nicholson's character into blurting out his true feelings.

G4G5, I have been reading this board for many years now and I remember quite clearly when you showed up as an AA wannabe maybe two to three years ago with an interview pending and you were looking for any interview "gouge" you could get. Shortly thereafter you were hired. I remember reading your posts as an AA new hire and being struck by how quickly you jumped into character as a seasoned AA pilot with all of the answers once you got onto the property.

You may be thinking, "yea, and what's your point?" The point is this: you struck me then, and you stike me now, as a holier than thou know-it-all with all of the answers to all questions pertaining to AMR.

 

[Counselair]

Hey Helgeson,

Why don't you quit wasting time on this board and go out and get yourself a job. Maybe you could throw on a skirt and start slopping drinks again at FL350 you ex-FA wee fairy! Say hi to the girls for me!

TH