Trouble at AMR

[G4G5]

Ya know...

G4G5, after reading most of your posts on this thread, I was under the impression that we had an unemotional team player on this board able to truly see and understand issues on both sides of the fence...

And then you dropped that last bomb of a post, which appears to have betrayed your true feelings on the matter - and contrary to what you said repeatedly during that post, emotion DID enter into it. It was very obvious that Eaglefly struck a raw nerve and you blasted him with your true feelings - forget diplomacy.

Sort of reminds me of the fateful last scene in "A Few Good Men" in which Tom Cruise's character goads Jack Nicholson's character into blurting out his true feelings.

G4G5, I have been reading this board for many years now and I remember quite clearly when you showed up as an AA wannabe maybe two to three years ago with an interview pending and you were looking for any interview "gouge" you could get. Shortly thereafter you were hired. I remember reading your posts as an AA new hire and being struck by how quickly you jumped into character as a seasoned AA pilot with all of the answers once you got onto the property.

You may be thinking, "yea, and what's your point?" The point is this: you struck me then, and you stike me now, as a holier than thou know-it-all with all of the answers to all questions pertaining to AMR.

Sorry that you took it that way. My point when agruing with Eagle fly is that he has it all wrong. Listing a couple of definations does not stop AMR mgt from doing what it wants. AMR mgt is going to do whats best for AMR and he is way off base if he thinks that the AA pilots are out to screw the Eagle pilots.

Let me ask you this:
How do you plan on stopping the loss of jobs in STL to the reverse code share?
How do you plan on stopping the sale of Executive?
How do you plan on getting more 50 and 70 seat RJ's?
What is your plan to allow AMR to grow in the 90-110 seat RJ range?
Improve the flow through?
With 12 years left on your contract, how do you plan on getting a raise, improve work rules and quality of life?
Even more importantly how do you plan on getting furloughed EAGLE pilots back quicker?

The answer is you can't without the help of the APA and that was my point. Eagle fly is under this dilussion that the evil APA pilot are the ones who are trying to screw the Eagle pilots. It's not the AA pilots that are reverse code sharing, the APA didn't let you sign the 16 year contract? You sold your sole in the last contract to get all of the Eagle divisions on one list and with reverse code sharing Carty has managed to use it against Eagle and AA.

The only way to fix any of the above questions is with the help of the APA and a One list concept. In fact most of the above if not all the above questions will be addressed with the One list. This is what Eaglefly has completly over looked, if you re-read my post you will see I asked him the same questions and all he could come up with was SECTION 2 DEFINATIONS. No actual contract context just some definations that you would find in any generic contract. Hence my frustration. You know as well as I do that Carty can/will and already has shifted jobs and flying between AA mainline and Eagle. By it's very defination Eagle is the regional feed for AA mainline. It was created to feed and develope routes for AA. Once an Eagle route is at a point where AMR can improve ROI they can transfer it to AMR and the reverse is true. Both pilot groups have seen routes transfered, so I have no clue where Eagle fly comes up with this stuff. It truly is frustrating to see someone argue such a basic principal of the commuter, mainline relationship.

Don't let my crack about type rating fool you, I only mentioned it to him because for some reason he thinks I fear something. I don't, I am in a unique position because I can be objective about this. If the S hit's the fan, so be it. AA is not my life, I can start fresh back in corporate. So I don't have a "horse in the race". I was not ment to be offensive, only to show that I am impartial. My only objective is to see that AMR(AA and Eagle) is around in 30 years when I retire.

Let me ask you one more question
How do the AA mainline pilots benefit?

Carty has already said that he will not furlough Eagle pilots to recall AA mainline pilots. So, this does not cost you a single job.

With that being a Fact, what are the Eagle pilots scared of? Without it you can gurantee that Eagle will lose jobs(sale of divisions and reverse code share to stay with in the Scope ASM restrictions)

The reality is that the APA owns the 70 seat flying. This again is a fact. We own it through the 75,000# restriction, the ASM restriction, our furloughed pilots(you can't grow with our guys out). Bottom line, our contract restricts your growth and your does nothing to restrict ours.

With that being said let me ask you again, what do the AA mainline pilots gain? We already own the 70/90/100/110 seat RJ flying so what do we gain? The fact is, this is where the next growth in flying is going to come from and the AA mainline pilots get it with or without one list.

So, I'll answer the question. With one list we will get our furloughed pilots back quicker, we create jobs. What good is having the 70/90/100/110 seat flying if their are no aircraft to fly? The only way AMR places the order for these aircraft is if we offer to give back some of our Scope restrictions. Carty wants to be able to grow the airline according to supply and demand not the APA's contract.

How do the Eagle pilots gain?
More 50 seaters. the scope restriction on ASM will be less restrictive, allowing for growth. We allow Eagle to have more EJR 135/140/145 and you get furloughed Eagle pilots back quicker.
The need to sell Executive is gone, no more divide and sell of Eagle, jobs stay at Eagle.
No more reverse codesharing. All flying will be done by AA pilots. This benefits both groups. ALL of the STL, Trans States/Chataqua(SP) feed will be transfered to US(AA mainline and Eagle). Jobs are created instantly

We get the pay rates up (before 2015). Let's be realistic once AA mainline pilots are flying 70/90/100/110 seat RJ's it's in our best interest to get the pay rates up and improve work rules because AA mainline pilots(and Eagle pilots) will now be on one list flying RJ's. The old school thinking that the most jr capt should make more then the most sr fo, is over. The APA from what I hear is willing to give up on this. If a pilot wants to be an RJ capt instead of a 767 Intl Fo so be it. Let the pilot decide what he is willing to work for. Carty for the first time can have a" realistic pay rate" on the RJ and he wants to talk. This was in part due to the Comair folks. Most of our pilots would rather see the flying non existant than work for you contract rates but with the new 16 year pay rates on the Comair RJ's as a starting point, for the first time the APA feels that they can get a rate that they can live with on the RJ.

This is not a screw job, far from it. This is the APA being pro-active. The realities of the USAir and UAL pilots when combined with the current economic climate has forced us to work with the company if we want to create more jobs and get our furloughed pilots back quicker.

From an objective point of view, this is going to happen with or without Eagle. If you don't think so, ask yourself why only the APA and AMR are negotating? I asked Eaglefly and he had no answer. So ask yourself. Would you rather live with your current contract for the next 12 years or would you rather see all of the above points addressed? This is the only way that they get fixed.

I liked your movie analogy, A few good men is one of my personal favorites but I don't think that it's the correct one to use. With my discussions with Eaglyfly, common sence and the contract are out the window. The only thing he seems to understand is when you bring the post down to his level. May I suggest Airplane as a better movie analogy. Remember the scene were the only person who spoke jive on the plane was the old lady? Just consider my post as trying to bring the post to a language that he would understand.

PS "holier than thou know-it-all"
If you think any of the above is BS so be it. I have a tendancy to spend to much time reading about aviation. I in turn want to return something to those who helped me. Sure I wanted to get on with AA. If you know me so well then you are aware that I was hired and left NWA and Delta for AA (along with turning down JetBlue) So my vested interest is in seeing AMR survive. IMHO the onelist concept does exactly that. Sorry if you got turned off by the last post.

 

[bluesideup1]

I will try to take this one.

How do you plan on stopping the loss of jobs in STL to the reverse code share?

Right now we are currently waiting on arbitrators decision on this. So until then we will wait and see.

How do you plan on stopping the sale of Executive?

We can't but you are under the misconception that this will hurt most eagle pilots. Yes some will get screwed in the fact they won't be able to flow through and some will get stuck in places they don't want to be but I can tell you that once they are spun off they will flourish and multiply as a reverse code share which will further erodes AA flying. As for regular eagle we will now be able to take even more jets and I will become a Jet captain sooner rather than later.

How do you plan on getting more 50 and 70 seat RJ's?

We are at our contractual limit via the scope for regular eagle but I am sure a connection partner will soon be supplied with 50, 70, 90 seats that will meet the needs. Yes I will be disappointed but this reverse code share hits AA a lot harder that it does AE. All you have to do is look at all the old TWA flying done by connection to see this.

What is your plan to allow AMR to grow in the 90-110 seat RJ range?

This has never been our concern if anything it is AA with the eventual loss of the Fokker there will seem to be a gap that needs to be filled. This will probably happen with the above mentioned reverse code share. Once again more of an AA problem than AE problem.

The reality is that the APA owns the 70 seat flying. This again is a fact. We own it through the 75,000# restriction, the ASM restriction, our furloughed pilots(you can't grow with our guys out). Bottom line, our contract restricts your growth and your does nothing to restrict ours.

Actually that is no way a fact what do you think the CRJ 700 are doing being flown by AE pilots. They are the 70 seaters that are under 75,000lb. Eventually we will reach our maximum of 67 as we send back the emb 145.

Improve the flow through?

By starters the flow through will work fantastic once the hiring starts again. We have over 300 pilots with AA number just waiting to come over. By the time the hiring starts up again (hopefully in 3 to 4 years) we will have on the order of 1000-1200 eligable pilots for the flow through so for the forseeable future half of every AA class will be filled by an AE flow through.

With 12 years left on your contract, how do you plan on getting a raise, improve work rules and quality of life?

Now this one just hurts, it sucks, it sucks and it sucks but we are not about to sell our souls again to vote something that will stagnate us here even longer.

Now you seem to be under the impression that APA is going out of its way to help the poor Eagle pilot in thier plight to become a real airline and this olive branch of a one list concept is solely thier to help us. ITS NOT!!!!!! Let me help you with the reality of the situation: American flying is shrinking, Eagle flying is expanding. If the AA pilots do not get some control over the flying that is expanding then they will continue shrinking.

Now lets ponder what is happening around us. Delta has lost around 60% of its domestic flying to its commuters (your old definition no longer really applies when the commuter becomes less of a feed and more of a competition). United is in the middle of it worst crisis it has seen and most analysts give it a 50/50 chance of survival. They have taken drastic pay cuts, management is trying to void their contracts but what flying continues to grow--- their commuters. War is on the verge of happening and if I am not mistaken there is a clause in your contract that in the event of war Force Majour can be implemented. Now imagine this because Delta has already dealt with it and lost. Your scope clause becomes void Eagle/connection orders hundreds of 37,50,70,90 seat jets and we now control 60 percent of AA domestic flying. Don't say it can't happen because it already has at Delta, USair and soon at United.

Now this would be a lose/lose senerio for the pilots. I don't want to be stuck flying 90 jets around as a captain for $87 an hour only to retire with a $.50 on the dollar up to 3% company 401k match. That is not what I signed up for.

My thought is right now you need our flying more than we need your number just so you don't end up an international airline with and all american eagle domenstic feed.

So check your egos at the door, take out the outlandish parts of the proposal (hiring directly into mainline, flowback as a jet captain) make a true one list offer or let management have its way with both our livelyhoods.

 

[Loafman]

AMEN. These guys just don't see the forest for the ..er.. forest.

 

[G4G5]

Just so I got it straight, (according to your own post)you can't stop the sale of executive or stop reverse code sharing or get a raise, you can't improve work rules or quality of life and seeing AMR grow in anthing other then Eagle is not your concern. OK, I give but I'll try anyway.


Just a few quick responeses ( I've got a trip). What's good for AMR is good for Eagle because their is no Eagle stock traded on Wall Street, as much as you may hate to admit it, you make up AMR just like AA main line does. This is what the APA is begining to realize. So I disagree growth in the 70/90/100/110 seat range wil help Eagle.


How many CRJ700's do you currently operate? What do you need to give up inorder to get more aircraft? Knowing that all the future CRJ900's will be flown by AA mainline pilot's(above 75,000#). Do you think for a minute that Carty will operate two sets of work rules, have two sets of pilots maint, FA's parts, yada yada. All for an aircraft that requires a common type rating to fly or will he just transfer what few you have to AA mainline in return for a contract give back (remember we are negotiating as we speek and Eagle is not). Still think you own the 70 seat flying? Here'a big what if the complete ERJ170 series weighs in at over 75k#. If Don decideds to switch now and give up the hand full of CRJ's you get nothing and we don't give up a thing, ouch.


Improve the flow through?

Here's a quick does of reality. We are still furloughing today before it all ends we will be at around 1500+. We already offered an early retirement and only have 200 pilot leaving over then next 2 years. At 40 a month it will take over 3 years to get everyone back. Knowing that we are still planning to furlough all year and if history is any indicator it will be 2-3 years before the first pilot gets recalled. When do you think you will see you name on an AA list? Then remember their are 400 Eagle pilots with numbers. This is what folks like Eagle fly miss. So you have an AA number, big deal. The earliest you will get to use it is 2008(just stop to calculate the lost wages, benefits and retirement). If you don't have a number good luck using you flow through. Still think growing AA mainlin not an Eagle pilots concern. Let's try not to forget it will be a different world then and your flow throught never worked all that well.


"If the AA pilots do not get some control over the flying that is expanding then they will continue shrinking."

We have control over our flying. So much so that Carty had to create reverse code sharing and put Executive up for sale just to deal with the ASM limit. This hurts Eagle and so far you can't stop either. Your comparisons to UAL and DAL are way off base because of our Scope(it's much better then theirs).

 

[SuperDavi8ator]

War is on the verge of happening and if I am not mistaken there is a clause in your contract that in the event of war Force Majour can be implemented. Now imagine this because Delta has already dealt with it and lost. Your scope clause becomes void Eagle/connection orders hundreds of 37,50,70,90 seat jets and we now control 60 percent of AA domestic flying. Don't say it can't happen because it already has at Delta, USair and soon at United.

You are sadly mistaken. There are only parts of the contract that are "FM"able. SCOPE is not one of them. The no furlough clause in the AA/TWA LLC Transition agreement is. So yes we will probably furlough another big chunck of our guys when we go into Iraq. What do you think will happen to eagle? The ASM limit isn't "FM"able. If our ASMs shrink by a significant amount, that means you park airplanes and put more bodies on the street too. As far as more jets for you, dream on. Our SCOPE Clause is the only thing that is keeping a Delta/USAIR from happening here right now. Every (RJ) "Replacement Jet" that goes to an AX carrier is one you don't get to fly. If it is ok with you fine. If the AX carriers are cheaper than Eagle, guess what? they start replacing you too. Like I said, if that is ok, then fine. The "One List" concept hopes to address these issues.

Rumor around here is the AX grievance has already been worked out in APA’s favor. That is the only reason AMR is talking to us about one list. They have said NO every time before. If they think they can save a few bucks on a mainline contract, they will hang you guys out to dry in a heart beat. Your contract has nothing to do with it. Any route Eagle flys can be converted to mainline in a heartbeat. Makes you wonder.

I think you need to have at least have a few facts straight before you start spoutin off about owning 60% of AMR flying. The chances of that are exactly ZERO. Why not stop dreaming and start working on you A+14 on time percentages, You guys are just bringing us dow.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

seniority: seat and equipment

Bluesideup1:

You make some good points, but consider this:

If there is a One List, that means all the details of working out where every pilots' seniority fit will be dealt with. After that bidding equipment, seat and location should be done by seniority. It has always been a "bump and flush" system.

The check your egos at the door comment and the flow back to jet Captain and the hiring off the street to mainline (lets just say to larger equipment if it does become one list).

If one list is realized than bidding will be by seniority, most likely with seat locks after moving to new equipment, etc. If we are One List, then why shouldn't a more senior pilot be able bump back to the RJ if his/her seniority could hold it? It is no different than loosing a seat from the B767 to the MD80 or to the F100. It sounds like you would like to flow up to mainline, but not let any mainline flow back to AE. Again, a true One List would not have AE or AA, we would all just be AA or better put, AMR pilots on one list.

Hiring to bigger equipment:

Hiring is usually done after a bid run to fill the vacancies that the active pilots did not choose. AA had hired from F/E on the B727 up to B767 (NYC). They didn't hire to the 767 to screw any other pilot group that was already on the property. It was done because the pilots did not bid it, period. Maybe the current pilots had a seat lock before the bid came out, had to fulfill a previous obligation, or maybe nobody wanted to go to NYC, etc. The new hire that got the B767 at NYC will be junior for a very long time as pilots more senior move up.

As an Eagle pilot, I would be more concerned about the ability to move up to bigger equipment by seniority without the RJ Captain restriction. At present, if an AA pilot wants to keep moving to bigger equipment as an F/O there is no resrtiction to make Captain on smaller equipment first. If a senior B777 F/O is going to loose that seat and has the seniority to hold MD80 Captain, shouldn't he/she be able to exercise seniority to hold that seat or should it be protected like the RJ Captain seat?

A true One List seniority should rule as it does at AA and AE. The comapny should be able to fill vacancies after a bid has run as per the contract. It is that simple. It is not about hiring military pilots ahead of Eagle. It is not about trying to steal RJ Captain seats, etc.

As far as the one list and the olive branch. Did it work for AE or are you still pissed that Executive has a MIA base and is taking the flying from Flagship? And thos F@ckin' Wings West Weinnies are hosing the flying for Simmon out of DFW!!! I think you get the point. A One List could make things better, but it is a long shot. Too many people are pissed off and most likely will not consider the options. It gets to a point where you just want to tank it to make a point.

Other carriers has had similar opportuniites in the past and have tanked it, too. Air Wisconson/ UAL, etc. There had been talk about the USAir wholly-owned carreirs becoming one carrier with the shuttle and flowing through. It never happened, the contract carriers got the RJs because they were cheaper and now the Jet for jobs for mainline furloughees proposal while the wholly-own keep flying turbo props with no flow through and are shrinking. That would never happen to Eagle; you have a contract!!!

You made some good points about a scenario where AA shrinks and AE grows, but don't think you are safe either. However, since you are not making $80k flying a turbo prop, you are probably safe from those that would contract your flying with an RJ for $40 to $50K.

I wish you luck with the "Connection", AE never flew out of STL, never had a base, it might not go in your favor as contracts were in place before the TWA acquisition. Although, I think you would have a case about loosing AE jets them.

It doesn't feel good to have guys on furlough while others are doing your flying, does it?

So if there is an olive brach, let's work not to wack each other in the face with it, because that only leads to braking off branches and sticking it some where the sun has never shined.

Enough said, I am going back to my happy place after I find my large print version of Soldier of Fortune!

XXOO

 

[eaglefly]

G4G5 believes what he wants to. Its hopeless.

He says theres no language in our contract that prevents AMR from transferring our flying to mainline.

he says prove it.

I do :

I highlight the definition of WHO is considered the "company" in the contractual language of our CBA.

I highlight the primary references to SCOPE and SUCCESORSHIP.

His reply ?

Umm... "Listing a couple of definitions does not stop AMR managment from doing what it wants".

G4G5 would have you believe that the Eagle pilots contract is meaningless and can be casually disregarded should AMR choose to.

G4G5 also seems to imply in the same breath that the APA contract cannot be disregarded and is the primary concern for AMR.

He is so sure "whats best for AMR" is what the APA proposes .

Listen to your own Hotline, and you'll hear whats "best for AMR"


Questions, he asks ?

"How do WE plan to stop the loss of jobs in STL to the reverse code-share ?"

-We haven't LOST any jobs in STL. We never had any to begin with (this one's really out where the buses don't run !).

"How do you plan on stopping the sale of Executive ?"

- The Executive sale is nothing more than AMR finding a guy (the previous owner) to "mind the store" (and make a few million ,which is peanuts to AMR) while Carty goes FULL STEAM toward Baseball-Style Arbitration. THEN HE WON'T HAVE MAINLINE SCOPE TO IMPEDE HIS INTERESTS.

"How do we plan on getting more 50 and 70 seat RJ's ?"

-If Baseball-Style arbitration becomes reality, Carty will have the ability to put ANY airplane with ANY carrier. I'm, not neccessarily happy with where the industry's going, but at least i'm not in denial.

"What is your plan to allow AMR to grow in the 90-110 seat RJ range ?"

- See previous answer.

"With 12 years left on your contract, how do you plan on getting a raise, improve work rules and quality of life ? -and- Even more importantly, how do you plan on getting furloughed Eagle pilots back quicker ?"

-Not much we can do with our contract except take 5 issues to arbitartion every 4 years to get bumped up a little with the rest of the industry, but that is attractive to AMR because of the limited future cost increases relative to competitors, which is another reason AMR might not be so quick to do away with it. Our furloughees (if any are left) would be called back AFTER mainline scope is nullified by what CARTY wants- Baseball-Style Arbitration. What YOUR plan to get the THOUSANDS of mainline pilots off of furlough ?

Answer : Eagles acceptance of an agreement that provides overwhelming benefits for mainline pilots while only providing SOME future promises in return (details of those to be negotiated AFTER we sign away our rights and protections).

PASS.

The "help" of APA ?

Hmmmm......

I have no delusion that APA is TRYING to screw the Eagle pilots (I've said that repeatedly too)

But to Reiterate, FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, I AND MOST EAGLE PILOTS DO BELIEVE A "ONE-LIST" SCENARIO IS GOOD FOR ALL PARTIES, BUT THE STIPULATIONS IN THE CURRENT PROPOSAL ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

What is there about that statement that you do not understand ?

This is what YOU seem to be overlooking.

If you reread EVERY one of my posts, I applaud a "one-list" concept to hopefully solve these problems.

Oh well, you can lead a mule to water......

Couple of other points :

-Going to be A LOT more than 1500 mainline furloughs (especially, when Baseball-Style Arbitration becomes a reality).

- Get pay rates up ? OhhhhKaayyy, yep, thats exactly what Carty wants. You just keep right on believing that.

-Why are only the APA and AMR negotiating ? Maybe you should ask the APA that. Again, you imply we at Eagle are just "afterthoughts" and should just hold on to Daddy's trouser leg as he walks aroung the house. I'm pointing out contractual protections we have that allow us to have a say in our futures. You refuse to accpet that and cover your ears while saying, "LAAH,LAAH,LAAH, LAAH".

And whether you accept it or not, WE DO have those protections.

If the future does not turn out as you see it, you say you'll just go back to Corporate. You could get a job back in a G5 making 90-100K per year with 15 days of per month. Probably no pension but a 401(K). You probably think Thats a pretty good life. It is.

Gee, I made over 90K last year, averaged 15 days off per month and have a 401(K). Isn't that a pretty good life. If not than why do we need to be "saved" from our terrible situation by accepting a proposal that fails to offer protections in exchange for agreement.

Enjoy your trip and keep an eye toward the future.

It is written in stone for no man.

 

[Loafman]

Why not stop dreaming and start working on you A+14 on time percentages, You guys are just bringing us dow.

Who the f#$k do you think is making money in this equation? If it weren't for us padding your bottom line, AMR would be further in the red. If you think we're bringing you down, look again.

 

[eaglefly]

 

[G4G5]

Eagle fly

B) SCOPE
1. ALL flying performed on COMPANY aircraft in its scheduled airline service will be performed by PILOTS ON THE SYSTEM SENIORITY LIST, in accordance with the terms of this agreement.

G4G5’s reply
This is not a Scope clause this is a sentence. A Scope clause has definable parameters that restrict the transfer of flying. This does nothing. It’s just a sentence that states , Eagle aircraft will be flown by Eagle pilots. Big deal, no ASM restrictions, no fleet counts nothing, nada. How does this sentence protect you from anything?
Here's another sentence, what happens when AMR decides to transfer the company aircraft to AA mainline. According to your "Scope clause" nothing, their is nothing that says that AMR can't move THEIR aircraft to AA mainline.

Just so I have this straight how does your Scope clause, protect you in the event AMR decides to buy the 70 seat ERJ's or if AMR decides to sell the CRJ's. Embraer is begging us to take them, just look at the financing they are offering. AA mgt just came out last week and stated that with the new ERJ purchases there is NO layout of capital, it’s pay as you use. Much more attractive then Bombardier, making the ERJ much more attractive then the CRJ.

~~
D) SUCCESSORSHIP

2. In the event the company sells OR TRANSFERS all or a part of the OPERATIONS covered by this agreement, The company will AS A CONDITION of such sale OR TRANSFER , REQUIRE that this Agreement be made BINDING on the purchaser or TRANSFEREE of such operations.

G4G5’s reply
This is where you are missing the boat, who does the company refer to? If their a CEO of Eagle? Is their an Eagle BOD? Is Eagle a publicly traded company? If your president is an executive of the AMR corporation then your company is AMR. Their is no, "condition of sale or transferee”. Who is transferring assets, list the two publicly traded companies that are involved in the transfer? Who is Don Carty transferring assets too? To Don Carty? If you think Eagle is the company then maybe you can tell me when they were incorporated? I really don’t know how to make it any clearer.

Or could it be that Eagle is a strategic business unit(AKA division of) the AMR corporation. If you think I am wrong ask an MBA, this is what I was referring to when I said, "ask your contract administrator."

If you still think I am wrong, refer to you Scope clause, “All company aircraft will be flown by pilots on the SYSTEM seniority list”. How come it does not say, All company aircraft will be flown by pilots on the COMPANY seniority list? Answer that?

~~
He says theres no language in our contract that prevents AMR from transferring our flying to mainline.
he says prove it.
I do :

G4G5’s reply
Tell me what you have proven? We all know that routes can be transferred to and from Eagle to and from mainline at the discretion of AMR. It's happened already and continues to happen. Just last month AMR planned to transfer the DFW-BUF route to Eagle. LGA to RDU routes are continually transferred form Eagle to AA mainline and back again. How may routes have been transferred in and out of LIT? So what have you proven? Again this is the purpose of the commuter mainline relationship. Are you saying that AMR can't transfer routes to and from Eagle?
Because we all know that not the case. But.

Just to be real clear are you saying that AMR can’t transfer routes to and from Eagle?

~~
G4G5 would have you believe that the Eagle pilots contract is meaningless and can be casually disregarded should AMR choose to.

G4G5’s Reply,
What do you call reverse code sharing and the sale of Executive? “Casually disregarded” is a term you could use.
The lawyers at AMR are well versed in contract law. When have you known AMR not to test the limits of a contract? The Eagle pilots are not the only ones; they do this to us continually. Are you saying that they always agree on your MEC interpretation of your contract?

This is part of my point, AMR mgt is doing it to us. Reverse code sharing and the sale of Executive, violates our Scope clause and our contract too. That is why we need to work together.

~~
G4G5 also seems to imply in the same breath that the APA contract cannot be disregarded and is the primary concern for AMR.

G4G5's Reply
When did I ever say this? AMR treats us just like they treat you. We have plenty of items pending arbitration too. The last time I checked there was somewhere around 40+ open items in arbitration.

~~
Questions, he asks ?

"How do WE plan to stop the loss of jobs in STL to the reverse code-share ?"

-We haven't LOST any jobs in STL. We never had any to begin with (this one's really out where the buses don't run !).

G4G5’s Reply:
Ok then what do you call the sale of the 15 EJR 145’s? Humm. I am pretty sure those were your aircraft and therefore your jobs.
Your contract also states that ONLY EAGLE will feed AA mainline. Is that the case in STL? Or does someone else have those jobs?

~~
"How do you plan on stopping the sale of Executive ?"

- The Executive sale is nothing more than AMR finding a guy (the previous owner) to "mind the store" (and make a few million ,which is peanuts to AMR) while Carty goes FULL STEAM toward Baseball-Style Arbitration. THEN HE WON'T HAVE MAINLINE SCOPE TO IMPEDE HIS INTERESTS.

G4G5’s
Baseball style arbitration has not even been voted or approved yet and you are counting on it for what, stopping the pending sale of Executie? FACT, the only way we get to baseball style arbitration is through exhausted section 6 negotiations. We are nowhere near that yet? Carty can’t just walk in a say, “I just want to negotiate the Scope clause now”. So is that what you are relying on to stop the transfer of Eagle jobs with the sale of Executive?

It also requires “last best offer” to be accepted. So what you are talking about won’t happen, mgt has to make a realistic offer or they run the risk of getting nothing. So, the very worst we can do is get a Scope clause that is something that between what we have now and what NWA or DAL’s current scope clause is(which still gives us the CRJ900 or the ERJ). Anything different would not meet the requirements of baseball style arbitration. Your suggestion would be like asking for a $500 an hour pilot pay rate, not going to happen. If your offer is not realistic, and within current industry standards then you run the risk of walking away with nothing.

This again is my point; the sale of Executive hurts both pilot groups. Do you not agree?

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"How do we plan on getting more 50 and 70 seat RJ's ?"

-If Baseball-Style arbitration becomes reality, Carty will have the ability to put ANY airplane with ANY carrier. I'm, not neccessarily happy with where the industry's going, but at least i'm not in denial.

G4G5 Reply,
I love sentences that start with, “if”. You can’t get anymore, this is a fact of our Scope clause. Why do you think he got rid of the 15- ERJ’s? The whole one list concept is about trying to work through this. I am not in denial. I am asking you how do you plan on getting more 50 and 70 seat jets, without the help of the APA?

Again that is my point you don’t get more unless there is one list.

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"What is your plan to allow AMR to grow in the 90-110 seat RJ range ?"
See previous answer.

G4G5’s reply,
Waiting for baseball style arbitration is not the answer. Even the worst scope clause in the industry gives this flying to mainline. So knowing that AA will not buy any 90-110 seat aircraft without scope relief, what do you propose? If you think this is not important to Eagle, think again. Pilots on furlough and mainline growth are also triggers for our scope clause


"With 12 years left on your contract, how do you plan on getting a raise, improve work rules and quality of life ? -and- Even more importantly, how do you plan on getting furloughed Eagle pilots back quicker ?"

-Not much we can do with our contract except take 5 issues to arbitartion every 4 years to get bumped up a little with the rest of the industry, but that is attractive to AMR because of the limited future cost increases relative to competitors, which is another reason AMR might not be so quick to do away with it. Our furloughees (if any are left) would be called back AFTER mainline scope is nullified by what CARTY wants- Baseball-Style Arbitration. What YOUR plan to get the THOUSANDS of mainline pilots off of furlough ?

Answer : Eagles acceptance of an agreement that provides overwhelming benefits for mainline pilots while only providing SOME future promises in return (details of those to be negotiated AFTER we sign away our rights and protections).

PASS.

G4G5’s reply
Pass? Wrong answer. What you have just told everyone is that you would rather live with you current contract for the next 12 years instead of improving quality of life, pay, retirement and bennies, now. Why? This will not extend your 12 contract, one day. It instantly will improve it and get pilots back, verses having to wait 4 years to negotiate 5 issues, and you think baseball style arbitration will only affect AA mainline? Something better today is quite an improvement over what you have now and 12 years is a long time from now.

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I have no delusion that APA is TRYING to screw the Eagle pilots (I've said that repeatedly too)

G4G5’s reply
But you continually fail to prove it and that’s my point.