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Travis Barker - 4 killed, 2 hurt as rock star's jet crashes

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Just heard...

The throttles were reportedly found in the full forward position. Not much more that we haven't heard before.

This is very much preliminary info. No further details. Sorry...wish I had more. Doesn't make sense to me either.

Yeah, that's probably inconclusive... could have been the impact, people in the plane escaping, etc.

If the CVR is viable, they will be able to tell what the engines were doing just from sound analysis.
 
Jerry Jones Learjet Crash

Very good info here that might answer some questions.

ATL01FA021HISTORY OF FLIGHT

On January 14, 2001, at 1345 central standard time, a Learjet LJ-60, N1DC, collided with two deer during landing and ran off the end of runway 7 at the Troy Municipal Airport, Troy, Alabama. The airplane was registered to and operated by Ark-Air Flight Inc. The business flight was operated under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 91 and visual flight rules. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an IFR flight plan was filed. The Airline Transport pilot (ATP) and ATP rated first officer received serious injuries, and the airplane was destroyedand there was a post-impact fire. The flight originated from Love Field in Dallas, Texas, at 1030 on January 14, 2001.

According to witnesses, the airplane collided with the deer shortly after touchdown and continued down the runway with the tires smoking, and veered off the right side of the runway near the end, crossed a taxiway, and impacted into a ditch and burst into flames. Local rescuers were able to extricate the crew before the fire engulfed the cockpit. According to the pilots, the thrust reversers failed to operate when engaged.

PILOT INFORMATION

The pilot held an airline transport pilot certificate with ATP privileges for airplane multiengine land, with type ratings in the Learjet LJ-60. He also held commercial pilot privileges for airplane single engine land, and was a certified flight instructor for airplane single and multiengine instrument airplanes. The pilot reported 20,750 total civilian hours on his most recent second class medical certificate, dated June 5, 2000, with no waivers or limitations. The pilot's most recent biennial flight review was in May of 2000, in the Learjet LJ-35.

The first officer held an ATP certificate with privileges for airplane multiengine land. He also held commercial pilot privileges for airplane single engine land, and was a certified flight instructor for airplane single and multiengine instrument airplanes. The first officer reported 3,500 hours total flight time in all aircraft with 750 hours in the LJ-60. The first officers most recent first class medical certificate was dated February 7, 2000, with no waivers or limitations. The first officers most recent biennial flight review was dated May of 2000, in the LJ-60.


AIRCRAFT INFORMATION

The Learjet LJ-60, S/N 60-035, N1DC, was manufactured in 1994. FAA records show the airplane was registered to Ark-Air Inc., on June 12, 1997. The maintenance records revealed the airplane was on a manufacturer's inspection program and was last inspected on August 8, 2000. The airplane had accumulated a total time of 2,088 hours at the time of the accident, including 241 hours since its last inspection.

METEOROLOGICAL INFORMATION

Visual Flight Rule conditions prevailed at the time of the accident, with visibility at 10 statute miles, ceiling at 8000 feet above ground level, temperature 16 degrees Celsius, dew point 8 degrees Celsius, wind 170 degrees at 8 knots and altimeter 30.19 inches of mercury.

WRECKAGE EXAMINATION

Heavy black skid marks were noted beginning at the first taxiway turnoff about 1500 feet down the 5,010 foot runway. Two fragmented deer carcasses were found several hundred feet after impact. The skid marks continued for about 2,500 feet and departed the right side of the runway near the Instrument Landing System shack at the end of the runway and proceeded an additional 500 feet over grass and dirt. The airplane was found resting on its left side down an embankment. The cockpit section of the fuselage was crushed upward into the crew seats. The fuselage aft of the cockpit was consumed by the post crash-fire. Examination of the landing gear found all three gear collapsed and deer fur was found lodged in the squat switch on the left main landing gear. The right and left main tires had areas of rubber that were worn completely through. The flaps were found extended, and both thrust reverser’s were found in the stowed position. Examination of the cockpit found the throttles in idle, and the thrust reverser levers in the stowed position.

MEDICAL/PATHOLOGICAL INFORMATION

Both pilots were hospitalized with serious injuries. There was no toxicology analysis conducted.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

With an estimated empty weight of 15,800 pounds and estimated fuel of 1,100 pounds, it was calculated that the airplane traveled 1500 feet down the runway after touchdown in 4.2 seconds before striking the deer, the performance group at Learjet using the weather reported at Troy, Alabama (variable winds and temperature at 14 degrees Celsius) the airplane landed with a ground speed of 124 knots. At 124 knots and maximum braking applied, the airplane should have come to a complete stop in about 850 feet.

A sound spectrum study was conducted using the Cockpit Voice Recorder as the source of the sound. The study was conducted by the National Transportation Safety Board's Vehicle Recorders Division. The study revealed that the engines fan speed increased from 8727.5 (82.3 percent) rpm to 9590 (90.4 percent) rpm between 11 seconds after touchdown and 18.2 seconds after touchdown. This increase in fan speed does not achieve the calculated takeoff N1, however, this engine speed is higher than achievable on a reverse thrust schedule. According to Pratt and Whitney of Canada, N1 is governed during reverse operations. The governing limit varies, and is based on ambient conditions and the airspeed. At 100 knots or greater, the maximum governing limit for N1 should be about 85.2 percent (according to Bombardier Aerospace) instead of the 90 percent found on the engines 20.4 seconds after landing.

Normal operating procedures include deploying the thrust reversers within 4 to 6 seconds after landing. Pilots deploy thrust reversers (T/R) by raising piggyback levers located in the cockpit with the throttles. With the loss of the squat switch on the left main landing gear, the T/R relay box deenergized the deploy solenoid and the T/R's go to the stow position. The electronic engine control (EEC) commands the engine speed to go to idle. As the T/R's complete the stow cycle, the unlock switches open, signaling the T/R relay box to remove the discrete signals. The EEC's switch to the forward thrust schedule and within 2.6 seconds estimated, and if the piggybacks remain at the max reverse position the engines rpm begins to increase to near takeoff power.

The airplane was released to the owners representative USAIG 2635 Century Parkway Suite 120, Atlanta, Ga. 30345.
 
no FDR on lear 60s, just CVR


Oh...didn't know that. When I heard "Recorder" I assumed it was a FDR and not just a CVR.

Well, despite what we see in the pics, they actually have a lot to work with in respect to the physical evidence and the CVR.
 
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Agreed. That or a firefighter working the scene. The FDR will tell the story for sure. They're pretty confident the FDR is intact.

Pretty chilling.

As a Lear 60 pilot, I am not aware of any 60 having a Flight Data Recorder. Only CVRs are installed unless things have changed with the newer models.
 
As a Lear 60 pilot, I am not aware of any 60 having a Flight Data Recorder. Only CVRs are installed unless things have changed with the newer models.


Edited my original post for clarity.

I heard "Recorder" and assumed FDR.

Hello...my name is DUH!
 
Fdr

As a Lear 60 pilot, I am not aware of any 60 having a Flight Data Recorder. Only CVRs are installed unless things have changed with the newer models.

The engine information will be recorded on the EDS won't it? I am not sure exactly what is received from an EDS download but it should include some useful information. Also the sound analysis should clarify this further.

I do not think (non certified to JAA standards) Lear 60's have an FDR that I know of. But I have been wrong.

Speaking of being wrong. I did not know of the SB recommendation that mod'd the squats to allow the aircraft to know that it is still on the ground when one squat switch is compromised. I stated that I have never heard of this being on a 60. Thanks to LJ45 and USCpilot for remembering and bringing up the Mod.
 
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I am fairly certain engine info would have been recorded on the EDS. Whether or the not the EDS is salvagable is another story. I don't think the EDS is given the same protection as the CVR.
 
I am fairly certain engine info would have been recorded on the EDS. Whether or the not the EDS is salvagable is another story. I don't think the EDS is given the same protection as the CVR.

The EDS records a lot of stuff, but I think you're right... it's probably burned up and useless.

Like I said, though, they can figure out an amazing amount of info from a CVR sound analysis.
 
not for nothing, but why are they telling ATC "we had a blow out" when they should be rotating and flying off the deck or focusing on getting the plane stopped and secured? Seems like a big distraction, keying the mike and talking to tower at night in the middle of a blowout rolling down the runway.
 
not for nothing, but why are they telling ATC "we had a blow out" when they should be rotating and flying off the deck or focusing on getting the plane stopped and secured? Seems like a big distraction, keying the mike and talking to tower at night in the middle of a blowout rolling down the runway.

I don't think anybody knows the answer to your "why." I think it's proably far too early to second-guess this crew since the facts are still so limited.

Generally speaking, though, some pilots think it is a priority to notify ATC ASAP so then can know what's happening and get help moving.
 
we dont know yet what they said, they didn't release the transcripts yet. They might have said "we are going off the end of the runway."

I'd sure as hell do that, I would want them to get the trucks rolling
 
At every carrier I have worked for procedures call for the PM to notify the tower when the PF calls and executes a reject.

This is done so that ARFF can be notified, and the tower knows not to clear anyone else to either take off or land until they can be assured the rejecting aircraft is clear of the runway.

A successful reject at night is for naught if another airplane runs into you.
 
Abort vs takeoff

Above 80 knots it is a very bad idea to abort for a tire failure or blowout unless it's associated with severe directional control problems. A tire failure will not have much effect on takeoff performance, but will have a significant effect on braking performance and on directional control if you've lost all your tires on one side and apply heavy braking. To illustrate my point: back in the 70s hijackers commandeered a Southern Airways DC9 and demanded that it be flown to Cuba. The crew convinced the hijackers that they needed more fuel and a landing was made in the US. The FBI shot out all of the tires while the aircraft was on the ramp. The hijackers told the crew to takeoff anyway. When the crew resisted they shot the FO in the arm (he still has the bullet in his arm). At that point the captain decided it would be prudent to do what they said. The airplane successfully took off and landed in Havana with no serious problems. Of course I realize that a shredding tire could sling FOD into an engine with tail mounted engines, and squat switches could be damaged, but those problems can be addressed if and when they occur. Still accident history strongly supports continuing the takeoff when tire failures occur above 80knots. As long as we're talking about accident history, it's also not a good idea to balk a landing once you have the reversers deployed, lift dump activated, or you are below 80 knots. Of course if there's a cliff off the end of the runway and stopping distance is in doubt or you find yourself with nil braking and 60-70% of your normal takeoff distance remaining (depending on current speed) then you should consider getting airborne again to sort things out. The bottom line is that these kinds of decisions should basically be made before you ever turn a wheel. When it happens, then you just have to execute your previus decision based on the current parameters,
 
Above 80 knots it is a very bad idea to abort for a tire failure or blowout unless it's associated with severe directional control problems. A tire failure will not have much effect on takeoff performance, but will have a significant effect on braking performance and on directional control if you've lost all your tires on one side and apply heavy braking.

I agree, and in previous posts I made the same argument. When the nose is pointed even somewhat straight, with 2 good engines, a good wing, and seconds from being able to fly the answer should always be go unless one of the briefed items occurs, or something HUGE is in the way. From the accident photos, this aircraft stayed in a straight path down the runway for some 10,000 feet.

I still want to give the crew the benefit of doubt that there is more to this story. Something just doesnt fit. Unless it was just a case of second guessing eachother, or knee jerk pull back of the power because something was heard and the F/O saying "no....Go, go, go. But I cannot see a crew traveling 92mph and hearing a pop and trying to stop the aircraft. It just doesnt make sense.

These kinds of incidents give us the chance to really think about what we brief and to re-instill those words in our sub-concious and affirm that what we say we will do when we are taxiing toward the runway is what we really will do when those couple seconds are on our plates.
 
I dont really think we are asking the right questions. We know they tried to abort above 80, fine. Good idea or not it is not our place to say, we were not in the cockpit. The important thing to figure out is why the airplane could not be brought to a stop? They had a decent amount of runway left. They slide over a mile they say. Did the TRs not work properly? Did the squat switches fail? Did the gear collapse?

Regardless of it was a good idea or bad idea to abort, the airplane should have been capable of doing it. Lets say that you have a blown tire 5 knots before v1 which somehow tosses funk into the engine and you lose the engine. Abort right? Not going to work evidently. Why not? So something else went wrong that the crew could not have predicted. And that is what needs to be figured out and fixed so that it does not happen to another airplane
 
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As I said on another thread, in my opinion for the aircraft to slide that far, particularly after sheering the gear off, I think it was still producing thrust. Who knows if it was the previously mentioned T/R issue, a FADEC issue or something else, but I believe for it to go that far, it still had thrust. Debris field started at 2800 feet. I do not believe that they traveled another 5800 feet plus as far as they did off the runway, much out without the gear, in a very straight line, without power. I hope they are able to give a definitive answer at some point.
 
As I said on another thread, in my opinion for the aircraft to slide that far, particularly after sheering the gear off, I think it was still producing thrust. Who knows if it was the previously mentioned T/R issue, a FADEC issue or something else, but I believe for it to go that far, it still had thrust. Debris field started at 2800 feet. I do not believe that they traveled another 5800 feet plus as far as they did off the runway, much out without the gear, in a very straight line, without power. I hope they are able to give a definitive answer at some point.

They aborted the "abort, and tried to fly, after realizing there was no way they could stop by the end. And I think that decision was made well after the 2,800 ft. mark. Because like you mentioned, there is NO WAY they could go that far, stay perfectly straight, and still impact hard enough to do that kind of damage, if the power was pulled back to idle. IMO

A Lear 35 here at FXE did have a bird strike on an engine once while taking off and whatever actually happened in the engine, that engine went full power by itself and they had to pull the t-handle on down-wind to shut it down before they landed.....so............
 
As I said on another thread, in my opinion for the aircraft to slide that far, particularly after sheering the gear off, I think it was still producing thrust. Who knows if it was the previously mentioned T/R issue, a FADEC issue or something else, but I believe for it to go that far, it still had thrust. Debris field started at 2800 feet. I do not believe that they traveled another 5800 feet plus as far as they did off the runway, much out without the gear, in a very straight line, without power. I hope they are able to give a definitive answer at some point.

I think people were implying that a malfunction or design flaw caused the reversers to stay stowed, but the engines powered up as they normally would to produce reverse thrust.... but at this point who knows we are all just guessing.
 
Minor point, but something to think about: If you lose the engine 5 knots below V1 you should still be able to takeoff in the available runway but you will not have your 35 feet above the runway at the end.
 
I went to the book to look some stuff up, and made a couple of calls to clairify some things, here are some answers to the best of my ability. Not swearing all are 100% accurate, but I believe they are.

1) If the piggybacks were up, and the squat switch failed, would the engine continue to accellerate if the T/R's stowed: No, the FADECS would roll the engines back to idle.
2) If the squat switch was damaged, would they loose brakes: No, the brakes are disabled or enabled by the nose gear hydraulics. If the nose gear is down, brakes are available.
3) Would the failure of one squat switch put the aircraft in "air" mode: Should not. The relay box needs both left and right switches to be in the air to command that.
4) Would they loose autospoilers if a squat switch failed: Possibly, but they would still have the manual extension of the spoilers, which is a "memory item" for rejected T/O.

So, it seems, we would need a failure of both sides to put the aircraft in air mode. And if that happened, the T/R's would certainly retract and the engines would go to idle.

Why this accident happened, I will not pass judgement. There but the grace of God could go I. Like most out there, I am trying to learn and avoid.

Hung
 
Minor point, but something to think about: If you lose the engine 5 knots below V1 you should still be able to takeoff in the available runway but you will not have your 35 feet above the runway at the end.

Yeah but it may be confusing if you call the abort pop the spoilers, apply max breaks, and go for the reversers, but the plane doesn't seem to be slowing down. Im sure it happened very fast. As we always do in FI.com we are just armchair quarterbacking this one.
 
As we always do in FI.com we are just armchair quarterbacking this one.

I think everyone has done a good job not armchair quarterbacking. The way I see it, it has made everyone dig in manuals, review SOP's and become much more familiar with the topic. I personally read the 45 page study on aborts and sent it to the other pilot of our aircraft. I have not seen anyone say the crew messed up. I still do not know what happened, but it forced me to dig into the systems of the aircraft that I fly and say " Ok, if this happened in the hawker and I lost a squat switch what all have I lost" I do not participate in these threads to sell out a crew. I participate to learn.

So her is to all of those trying to learn as well and to those we lost.:beer:
 
1) If the piggybacks were up, and the squat switch failed, would the engine continue to accellerate if the T/R's stowed: No, the FADECS would roll the engines back to idle.
2) If the squat switch was damaged, would they loose brakes: No, the brakes are disabled or enabled by the nose gear hydraulics. If the nose gear is down, brakes are available.
3) Would the failure of one squat switch put the aircraft in "air" mode: Should not. The relay box needs both left and right switches to be in the air to command that.
4) Would they loose autospoilers if a squat switch failed: Possibly, but they would still have the manual extension of the spoilers, which is a "memory item" for rejected T/O.

1) Correct... if the T/R relay box receives "air" signals from squat switches.

2) Not completely correct... the hydraulic pressure for brakes comes from the nose gear down line. However, the anti-skid function is controlled by individual squat switches. The only way you can guarantee effective brakes (with squat switches in "air mode") with the gear down is turning the anti-skid off or using emergency braking.

3) Not completely correct... The squat switch relay box uses signals from both switches, and as long as one is in "ground mode," the relay box is in "ground mode." However, many systems bypass the relay box and get signals from both squat switches individually (anti-skid, for example).

4) Correct. Aborts do not rely on autospoilers... they are to be fully deployed manually.


Edited so as not to offend anyone who writes more than he/she reads.
 
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1)

And for everyone's information:

"Lose" is the is what you do when you misplace something or don't win. "Loose" is the opposite of "tight."

"Break" is to damage something or a period of down-time. "Brakes" are what airplanes and cars use to stop.

Not making fun of anyone, just letting you all know in case you didn't.


Thanks, that was very helpful information on what has been a otherwise good thread. :erm:
 

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