LJ45
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Travis Barker - 4 killed, 2 hurt as rock star's jet crashes
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Someone posted that there were men and equipment working in the area. As some might conclude, the contaminated runway seems to be the likely culprit. (I know no one knows for sure, yet) It sounds just like the Concorde accident. These airport workers need to do a much better job of clearing the runway!
I was flying a Hawker over the Gulf of Mexico heading to Tampa when we lost all hydraulic pressure and quantity. No big deal, we hand pumped the gear down and used the T/Rs to get it stopped (they used pneumatic pressure to activate). After we landed I heard on the radio that there was a “large chunk” of debris found on the runway. I inspected the aircraft and, expecting to see a big hole near the engine, found nothing was missing. When we got back to the FBO I asked what was found and they said it was a big fire hydrant nozzle had fallen of a fire truck! This would have brought down any airplane. Bottom line, we can all Monday-morning-quarterback this situation but if there is debris on the runway at night, there is virtually no way to avoid it. This plane was likely doomed due to complacent airport workers. They blew that tire at the worst possible time. Had they continued, they may not have ever made it to V1, then gone off the end of the runway at a higher speed and killed everyone. Of course they tried to stop and look what happened! Sounds like they did everything they were trained to do. My hats off to the crew and I pray I never have to make this decision in the time it takes to say “Lear 60.”
I was flying a Hawker over the Gulf of Mexico heading to Tampa when we lost all hydraulic pressure and quantity. No big deal, we hand pumped the gear down and used the T/Rs to get it stopped (they used pneumatic pressure to activate). After we landed I heard on the radio that there was a “large chunk” of debris found on the runway. I inspected the aircraft and, expecting to see a big hole near the engine, found nothing was missing. When we got back to the FBO I asked what was found and they said it was a big fire hydrant nozzle had fallen of a fire truck! This would have brought down any airplane. Bottom line, we can all Monday-morning-quarterback this situation but if there is debris on the runway at night, there is virtually no way to avoid it. This plane was likely doomed due to complacent airport workers. They blew that tire at the worst possible time. Had they continued, they may not have ever made it to V1, then gone off the end of the runway at a higher speed and killed everyone. Of course they tried to stop and look what happened! Sounds like they did everything they were trained to do. My hats off to the crew and I pray I never have to make this decision in the time it takes to say “Lear 60.”
Publishers
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As with any emergency, there is a period of time to recognize what is going on. From the reports, they heard what was the blown tire. Still tires fail with consequences, sometimes small, sometimes large. By the time you realize that the failure is serious, let's say both tires taken out, you have steering problems, and you are aborting putting additional stress on remaining tires.
Guessing only from the witness accounts, we had an aircraft on rim with considerable sparks. No crew wants to be in this scenario. High speed abort not very attractive at night, if you make it intothe air, back around and likely belly landing. SOP's are great and valuable, in this case, reaction is critical and even then outcome not assured.
Guessing only from the witness accounts, we had an aircraft on rim with considerable sparks. No crew wants to be in this scenario. High speed abort not very attractive at night, if you make it intothe air, back around and likely belly landing. SOP's are great and valuable, in this case, reaction is critical and even then outcome not assured.
The mod that I mentioned earlier does exist. Not sure of the date or SB# I was not able to obtain that today. I did converse with a 60 maint guy. TR deployment with mod requires either both squat switches or one squat switch with 40kts wheel speed. It is incorperated on all late model 60's. Not sure of the starting serial number. With out mod then it does take both squat switches.
notapilot,
I wasnt trying to take issue. I am embarrased to say that that was the first time I had read the JJ report. I asked the same tech that I referenced above about the NTSB's findings (90 some odd % unstead of the 85% max allowed in reverse) and it did not make sense to him. If the TR stowed with the piggybacks still up the FADEC should have gone to idle.
notapilot,
I wasnt trying to take issue. I am embarrased to say that that was the first time I had read the JJ report. I asked the same tech that I referenced above about the NTSB's findings (90 some odd % unstead of the 85% max allowed in reverse) and it did not make sense to him. If the TR stowed with the piggybacks still up the FADEC should have gone to idle.
LJ45
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The accident aircraft, because of serial number, came with the mod. I looked up the SB (SB60-78-7) and it applies to serial # 276 and earlier, so this one would have it. It is a recommend SB originally release 2005, with a revision in 2006.
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Ticker
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Club ORD FO
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Ticker
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Agreed. That or a firefighter working the scene. The FDR will tell the story for sure. They're pretty confident the FDR is intact.
Pretty chilling.
AirplanesSuck
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Yeah, that's probably inconclusive... could have been the impact, people in the plane escaping, etc.
If the CVR is viable, they will be able to tell what the engines were doing just from sound analysis.
LRvsH25B
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Jerry Jones Learjet Crash
Very good info here that might answer some questions.
ATL01FA021HISTORY OF FLIGHT
On January 14, 2001, at 1345 central standard time, a Learjet LJ-60, N1DC, collided with two deer during landing and ran off the end of runway 7 at the Troy Municipal Airport, Troy, Alabama. The airplane was registered to and operated by Ark-Air Flight Inc. The business flight was operated under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 91 and visual flight rules. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an IFR flight plan was filed. The Airline Transport pilot (ATP) and ATP rated first officer received serious injuries, and the airplane was destroyedand there was a post-impact fire. The flight originated from Love Field in Dallas, Texas, at 1030 on January 14, 2001.
According to witnesses, the airplane collided with the deer shortly after touchdown and continued down the runway with the tires smoking, and veered off the right side of the runway near the end, crossed a taxiway, and impacted into a ditch and burst into flames. Local rescuers were able to extricate the crew before the fire engulfed the cockpit. According to the pilots, the thrust reversers failed to operate when engaged.
PILOT INFORMATION
The pilot held an airline transport pilot certificate with ATP privileges for airplane multiengine land, with type ratings in the Learjet LJ-60. He also held commercial pilot privileges for airplane single engine land, and was a certified flight instructor for airplane single and multiengine instrument airplanes. The pilot reported 20,750 total civilian hours on his most recent second class medical certificate, dated June 5, 2000, with no waivers or limitations. The pilot's most recent biennial flight review was in May of 2000, in the Learjet LJ-35.
The first officer held an ATP certificate with privileges for airplane multiengine land. He also held commercial pilot privileges for airplane single engine land, and was a certified flight instructor for airplane single and multiengine instrument airplanes. The first officer reported 3,500 hours total flight time in all aircraft with 750 hours in the LJ-60. The first officers most recent first class medical certificate was dated February 7, 2000, with no waivers or limitations. The first officers most recent biennial flight review was dated May of 2000, in the LJ-60.
AIRCRAFT INFORMATION
The Learjet LJ-60, S/N 60-035, N1DC, was manufactured in 1994. FAA records show the airplane was registered to Ark-Air Inc., on June 12, 1997. The maintenance records revealed the airplane was on a manufacturer's inspection program and was last inspected on August 8, 2000. The airplane had accumulated a total time of 2,088 hours at the time of the accident, including 241 hours since its last inspection.
METEOROLOGICAL INFORMATION
Visual Flight Rule conditions prevailed at the time of the accident, with visibility at 10 statute miles, ceiling at 8000 feet above ground level, temperature 16 degrees Celsius, dew point 8 degrees Celsius, wind 170 degrees at 8 knots and altimeter 30.19 inches of mercury.
WRECKAGE EXAMINATION
Heavy black skid marks were noted beginning at the first taxiway turnoff about 1500 feet down the 5,010 foot runway. Two fragmented deer carcasses were found several hundred feet after impact. The skid marks continued for about 2,500 feet and departed the right side of the runway near the Instrument Landing System shack at the end of the runway and proceeded an additional 500 feet over grass and dirt. The airplane was found resting on its left side down an embankment. The cockpit section of the fuselage was crushed upward into the crew seats. The fuselage aft of the cockpit was consumed by the post crash-fire. Examination of the landing gear found all three gear collapsed and deer fur was found lodged in the squat switch on the left main landing gear. The right and left main tires had areas of rubber that were worn completely through. The flaps were found extended, and both thrust reverser’s were found in the stowed position. Examination of the cockpit found the throttles in idle, and the thrust reverser levers in the stowed position.
MEDICAL/PATHOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Both pilots were hospitalized with serious injuries. There was no toxicology analysis conducted.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
With an estimated empty weight of 15,800 pounds and estimated fuel of 1,100 pounds, it was calculated that the airplane traveled 1500 feet down the runway after touchdown in 4.2 seconds before striking the deer, the performance group at Learjet using the weather reported at Troy, Alabama (variable winds and temperature at 14 degrees Celsius) the airplane landed with a ground speed of 124 knots. At 124 knots and maximum braking applied, the airplane should have come to a complete stop in about 850 feet.
A sound spectrum study was conducted using the Cockpit Voice Recorder as the source of the sound. The study was conducted by the National Transportation Safety Board's Vehicle Recorders Division. The study revealed that the engines fan speed increased from 8727.5 (82.3 percent) rpm to 9590 (90.4 percent) rpm between 11 seconds after touchdown and 18.2 seconds after touchdown. This increase in fan speed does not achieve the calculated takeoff N1, however, this engine speed is higher than achievable on a reverse thrust schedule. According to Pratt and Whitney of Canada, N1 is governed during reverse operations. The governing limit varies, and is based on ambient conditions and the airspeed. At 100 knots or greater, the maximum governing limit for N1 should be about 85.2 percent (according to Bombardier Aerospace) instead of the 90 percent found on the engines 20.4 seconds after landing.
Normal operating procedures include deploying the thrust reversers within 4 to 6 seconds after landing. Pilots deploy thrust reversers (T/R) by raising piggyback levers located in the cockpit with the throttles. With the loss of the squat switch on the left main landing gear, the T/R relay box deenergized the deploy solenoid and the T/R's go to the stow position. The electronic engine control (EEC) commands the engine speed to go to idle. As the T/R's complete the stow cycle, the unlock switches open, signaling the T/R relay box to remove the discrete signals. The EEC's switch to the forward thrust schedule and within 2.6 seconds estimated, and if the piggybacks remain at the max reverse position the engines rpm begins to increase to near takeoff power.
The airplane was released to the owners representative USAIG 2635 Century Parkway Suite 120, Atlanta, Ga. 30345.
Very good info here that might answer some questions.
ATL01FA021HISTORY OF FLIGHT
On January 14, 2001, at 1345 central standard time, a Learjet LJ-60, N1DC, collided with two deer during landing and ran off the end of runway 7 at the Troy Municipal Airport, Troy, Alabama. The airplane was registered to and operated by Ark-Air Flight Inc. The business flight was operated under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 91 and visual flight rules. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an IFR flight plan was filed. The Airline Transport pilot (ATP) and ATP rated first officer received serious injuries, and the airplane was destroyedand there was a post-impact fire. The flight originated from Love Field in Dallas, Texas, at 1030 on January 14, 2001.
According to witnesses, the airplane collided with the deer shortly after touchdown and continued down the runway with the tires smoking, and veered off the right side of the runway near the end, crossed a taxiway, and impacted into a ditch and burst into flames. Local rescuers were able to extricate the crew before the fire engulfed the cockpit. According to the pilots, the thrust reversers failed to operate when engaged.
PILOT INFORMATION
The pilot held an airline transport pilot certificate with ATP privileges for airplane multiengine land, with type ratings in the Learjet LJ-60. He also held commercial pilot privileges for airplane single engine land, and was a certified flight instructor for airplane single and multiengine instrument airplanes. The pilot reported 20,750 total civilian hours on his most recent second class medical certificate, dated June 5, 2000, with no waivers or limitations. The pilot's most recent biennial flight review was in May of 2000, in the Learjet LJ-35.
The first officer held an ATP certificate with privileges for airplane multiengine land. He also held commercial pilot privileges for airplane single engine land, and was a certified flight instructor for airplane single and multiengine instrument airplanes. The first officer reported 3,500 hours total flight time in all aircraft with 750 hours in the LJ-60. The first officers most recent first class medical certificate was dated February 7, 2000, with no waivers or limitations. The first officers most recent biennial flight review was dated May of 2000, in the LJ-60.
AIRCRAFT INFORMATION
The Learjet LJ-60, S/N 60-035, N1DC, was manufactured in 1994. FAA records show the airplane was registered to Ark-Air Inc., on June 12, 1997. The maintenance records revealed the airplane was on a manufacturer's inspection program and was last inspected on August 8, 2000. The airplane had accumulated a total time of 2,088 hours at the time of the accident, including 241 hours since its last inspection.
METEOROLOGICAL INFORMATION
Visual Flight Rule conditions prevailed at the time of the accident, with visibility at 10 statute miles, ceiling at 8000 feet above ground level, temperature 16 degrees Celsius, dew point 8 degrees Celsius, wind 170 degrees at 8 knots and altimeter 30.19 inches of mercury.
WRECKAGE EXAMINATION
Heavy black skid marks were noted beginning at the first taxiway turnoff about 1500 feet down the 5,010 foot runway. Two fragmented deer carcasses were found several hundred feet after impact. The skid marks continued for about 2,500 feet and departed the right side of the runway near the Instrument Landing System shack at the end of the runway and proceeded an additional 500 feet over grass and dirt. The airplane was found resting on its left side down an embankment. The cockpit section of the fuselage was crushed upward into the crew seats. The fuselage aft of the cockpit was consumed by the post crash-fire. Examination of the landing gear found all three gear collapsed and deer fur was found lodged in the squat switch on the left main landing gear. The right and left main tires had areas of rubber that were worn completely through. The flaps were found extended, and both thrust reverser’s were found in the stowed position. Examination of the cockpit found the throttles in idle, and the thrust reverser levers in the stowed position.
MEDICAL/PATHOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Both pilots were hospitalized with serious injuries. There was no toxicology analysis conducted.
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
With an estimated empty weight of 15,800 pounds and estimated fuel of 1,100 pounds, it was calculated that the airplane traveled 1500 feet down the runway after touchdown in 4.2 seconds before striking the deer, the performance group at Learjet using the weather reported at Troy, Alabama (variable winds and temperature at 14 degrees Celsius) the airplane landed with a ground speed of 124 knots. At 124 knots and maximum braking applied, the airplane should have come to a complete stop in about 850 feet.
A sound spectrum study was conducted using the Cockpit Voice Recorder as the source of the sound. The study was conducted by the National Transportation Safety Board's Vehicle Recorders Division. The study revealed that the engines fan speed increased from 8727.5 (82.3 percent) rpm to 9590 (90.4 percent) rpm between 11 seconds after touchdown and 18.2 seconds after touchdown. This increase in fan speed does not achieve the calculated takeoff N1, however, this engine speed is higher than achievable on a reverse thrust schedule. According to Pratt and Whitney of Canada, N1 is governed during reverse operations. The governing limit varies, and is based on ambient conditions and the airspeed. At 100 knots or greater, the maximum governing limit for N1 should be about 85.2 percent (according to Bombardier Aerospace) instead of the 90 percent found on the engines 20.4 seconds after landing.
Normal operating procedures include deploying the thrust reversers within 4 to 6 seconds after landing. Pilots deploy thrust reversers (T/R) by raising piggyback levers located in the cockpit with the throttles. With the loss of the squat switch on the left main landing gear, the T/R relay box deenergized the deploy solenoid and the T/R's go to the stow position. The electronic engine control (EEC) commands the engine speed to go to idle. As the T/R's complete the stow cycle, the unlock switches open, signaling the T/R relay box to remove the discrete signals. The EEC's switch to the forward thrust schedule and within 2.6 seconds estimated, and if the piggybacks remain at the max reverse position the engines rpm begins to increase to near takeoff power.
The airplane was released to the owners representative USAIG 2635 Century Parkway Suite 120, Atlanta, Ga. 30345.
Club ORD FO
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Ticker
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Oh...didn't know that. When I heard "Recorder" I assumed it was a FDR and not just a CVR.
Well, despite what we see in the pics, they actually have a lot to work with in respect to the physical evidence and the CVR.
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Club ORD FO
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starcheckdriver
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As a Lear 60 pilot, I am not aware of any 60 having a Flight Data Recorder. Only CVRs are installed unless things have changed with the newer models.
Ticker
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Edited my original post for clarity.
I heard "Recorder" and assumed FDR.
Hello...my name is DUH!
LR60BOY
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Disagree........the last 60 that I flew was 60-278. Certified to JAR ops. Equipped with FDR and CVR. One of the reasons it was so heavy. 15400 BOW.
WTF
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Fdr
The engine information will be recorded on the EDS won't it? I am not sure exactly what is received from an EDS download but it should include some useful information. Also the sound analysis should clarify this further.
I do not think (non certified to JAA standards) Lear 60's have an FDR that I know of. But I have been wrong.
Speaking of being wrong. I did not know of the SB recommendation that mod'd the squats to allow the aircraft to know that it is still on the ground when one squat switch is compromised. I stated that I have never heard of this being on a 60. Thanks to LJ45 and USCpilot for remembering and bringing up the Mod.
The engine information will be recorded on the EDS won't it? I am not sure exactly what is received from an EDS download but it should include some useful information. Also the sound analysis should clarify this further.
I do not think (non certified to JAA standards) Lear 60's have an FDR that I know of. But I have been wrong.
Speaking of being wrong. I did not know of the SB recommendation that mod'd the squats to allow the aircraft to know that it is still on the ground when one squat switch is compromised. I stated that I have never heard of this being on a 60. Thanks to LJ45 and USCpilot for remembering and bringing up the Mod.
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starcheckdriver
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