Travis Barker - 4 killed, 2 hurt as rock star's jet crashes

[AirplanesSuck]

Nevermind... carry on. Sorry I said it.

 

[LJDRVR]

RIP Sara and James.

There's absolutely no reason that the 31, 60 and 45 shouldn't have had a dragchute like their predecessors.

 

[400A]

RIP Sara and James.

There's absolutely no reason that the 31, 60 and 45 shouldn't have had a dragchute like their predecessors.

Why would a 45 need it? Awesome brakes.

 

[Hung Start]

1) Correct... if the T/R relay box receives "air" signals from squat switches.

2) Not completely correct... the hydraulic pressure for brakes comes from the nose gear down line. However, the anti-skid function is controlled by individual squat switches. The only way you can guarantee effective brakes (with squat switches in "air mode") with the gear down is turning the anti-skid off or using emergency braking.
Not trying to nitpick, but the question was "will you loose brakes if a squat switch is damaged?" No, you will not, you could loose the anti skid function, but you still will have full brake pressure.

3) Not completely correct... The squat switch relay box uses signals from both switches, and as long as one is in "ground mode," the relay box is in "ground mode." However, many systems bypass the relay box and get signals from both squat switches individually (anti-skid, for example).
True, some things are controlled off of individual switches. But I was trying to answer specific items. You cannot speed up the engines with the piggy backs up and the T/R's closed, and you do not loose total brake pressure either.

4) Correct. Aborts do not rely on autospoilers... they are to be fully deployed manually.


Edited so as not to offend anyone who writes more than he/she reads.

And, I certainly take no offense to you for answering. As has been said before, I think we are all just trying to become better educated on this.

Best regards

Hung

 

[Fly91]

Why would a 45 need it? Awesome brakes.

The Learjet 45 or 60 could have a set of Gulfstream V brakes on them, without tires the brakes are useless. A drag chute works no matter what is happening.

 

[LJPilot]

Airplane sucks is correct. The T/R's squat switch signal does not come from the squat switch relay box. It recieves a signal from both squat switches and needs both in ground mode. That is the case for earlier models without the mod, but I think it was corrected on later models.

 

[AviateYou]

RIP Sara and James.

There's absolutely no reason that the 31, 60 and 45 shouldn't have had a dragchute like their predecessors.

Yeah my condolences too. My man Jumbo. Hey there I don't think the 45 needs a chute as the carbon fiber brakes and landing gear are state of the art. We had balanced field length at Lugano, Switzerland and it's as short as it gets. They really do work well. How's Continental Treating ya?

C

 

[AviateYou]

Let me share some really valuable information with you on the Learjet 55 and 60 tires ie Goodyear 17.5x5.75-8-14 TL Main Tires: Theses tires are small as everyone knows and they are 14 ply and run at 180 psi + or -5 PSI they are rated for a max load of over 6000 lbs each. Average car tires run at 30 to 40 psi if that indicates how much pressure these aircraft tires operate under. Learjet Service Technicians will tell you that it is absolutely critical to maintain the correct tire pressure and any issue under inflation can be catastrophic even if it's as little as 5% one under inflated tire can over stress it's companion tire. The learjet service manual requires you to remove both mains, perform an eddy current on the rims, and reinspect and replace with new tires and/or rims if there is any defect such as a crack, or really slow leak. That is how critical it is for these tires on 55's and 60's The 55B has a chute but doesn't give us the "peace of mind" that a nitrogen tire gage does to actually know these tires are properly inflated. I had a brand new outboard main that had been inspected twice deflate to 90 psi and it looked like it was just a little low - why? because the 14 ply tires sidewalls are so stiff they will not visually indicate they are low until the aircraft is almost full of fuel we had 6000 lbs on our 55ER and it still only looked a little low when in fact it was less than half at 90 psi!

My suggestion would be to GET A NITROGEN TIRE GAGE AND START CHECKING your tire pressures yourself. Do not trust anyone with these tires but yourself even if they were just mounted as ours were. Good luck. PS They cost less than a hundred and should be part of every pilot's checklist. And the same goes for Michelins.

 

[Basil]

My suggestion would be to GET A NITROGEN TIRE GAGE AND START CHECKING your tire pressures yourself.

Is there such a thing as a Nitrogen Tire Gauge? I never thought of it before, but wouldn't any high-quality calibrated tire gauge work? Pressure is pressure, right?

 

[AviateYou]

Is there such a thing as a Nitrogen Tire Gauge? I never thought of it before, but wouldn't any high-quality calibrated tire gauge work? Pressure is pressure, right?

Exactly as long as it is the higly calibrated one that you mentioned which takes into account that Nitrogen is a larger gas molecule than compressed air I'll give you the part number to the one we purchased through ARINC by Friday if you want it?

 

[Fly91]

Yeah my condolences too. My man Jumbo. Hey there I don't think the 45 needs a chute as the carbon fiber brakes and landing gear are state of the art. We had balanced field length at Lugano, Switzerland and it's as short as it gets. They really do work well. How's Continental Treating ya?

C

Anyone that doesn't think a drag chute on every Lear built (new or old Learjet) is NOT a good idea....is just an aviation MORON.

PERIOD.

 

[Fly91]

Is there such a thing as a Nitrogen Tire Gauge? I never thought of it before, but wouldn't any high-quality calibrated tire gauge work? Pressure is pressure, right?

Go back to some kind of school and then start posting your bullsh!t.

If you were being funny or meant to say something I didn't get, sorry. Be more specific when people have lost there ************************* lives.

 

[AviateYou]

Anyone that doesn't think a drag chute on every Lear built (new or old Learjet) is NOT a good idea....is just an aviation MORON.

PERIOD.

Shows how ignorant you are about the Learjet 45. Or is it just because you're inept overall? Take it up with Bombardier. Period.

 

[CA1900]

Anyone that doesn't think a drag chute on every Lear built (new or old Learjet) is NOT a good idea....is just an aviation MORON.

If you or Bombardier...or any other pilot on earth thinks that a drag chute is a bad idea.....well, you are just that..............MORONS. All of you.

I think we've found the moron...

First you say people are morons if they don't think it's a bad idea. Then you say they're morons if they do think it's a bad idea.

WHICH IS IT?

Try getting rid of the double negatives; it'll make your posts a lot easier to write -- and read.

 

[momalley81]

2) Not completely correct... the hydraulic pressure for brakes comes from the nose gear down line. However, the anti-skid function is controlled by individual squat switches. The only way you can guarantee effective brakes (with squat switches in "air mode") with the gear down is turning the anti-skid off or using emergency braking.

Not trying to nitpick, but the question was "will you loose brakes if a squat switch is damaged?" No, you will not, you could loose the anti skid function, but you still will have full brake pressure.



And, I certainly take no offense to you for answering. As has been said before, I think we are all just trying to become better educated on this.

Best regards

Hung

Ah, no. This is from FSI's PTM, volume 1 on the 60. Page 14-15:

With the antiskid ON while the squat switches are in the airborne mode and the landing gear extended, these circuits prevent brake pressure from being applied to the brakes. If it is desired to exercise the brakes in flight, the ANTISKID switch must be turned OFF

You lose the squat switch, you lose ALL BRAKES until turning off antiskid or using the nitrogen. I was unaware of this as well, and had to go back. This ONE paragraph is the only place its mentioned, that if the airplane is in air mode, the brakes are locked out.

 

[400A]

Congratulations Fly91 you turned a informative thread into a name calling session like you always do.

If you want a drag chute, go back and fly an old lear with a drag chute. You seem to think that the drag chute is the saver of all things. You failed to mention a few things that punch a hole in your theory and prove that you just came to pick a fight. First, Drag Chutes have been known to fail to deploy.

http://www.ainonline.com/news/singl...inal-reports-fod-blamed-for-learjet-accident/

http://propilotnews.com/2007_08_01_archive.html

There is something else you failed to mention in your argument, Drag Chutes have been known to deploy in flight. No thanks. If they were the flawless save-all that you say they are, they would be required for certification. I addition to that you should know that systems that rarely if ever get used have a high failure rate.

Your theory and rant about time spent in college does not hold water. It was just meant to insult. Move on to your next fight if you have no viable information to offer.

 

[Papps]

lets eliminate brakes altogether in favor of drag chutes.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The CRJ has a memory action for loss of braking or asymmetrical braking that has you turn off the antiskid switch.

Here's a dodo who experimented and lost

 

[AviateYou]

If you or Bombardier...or any other pilot on earth thinks that a drag chute is a bad idea.....well, you are just that..............MORONS. All of you.

Bombardier does not put the drag chute on the Lear 45 because of cost. Cost is much more important than human life or cost of damage caused by an incident/accident. Go to school and learn something before you comment on liability or anything that has to do with damages. It actually takes some education in a college type setting to realize how important human life really is to USA corporations.

Bombardier would much rather have a certain amount of people die per year, and the insurance companies associated with those operators pay the court awarded claims.....rather than have to make their planes that much more safer and more expensive to their customers.

If you don't know this, all I can say is: go back to school.

Death and damage is a calculated figure....manufacturers KNOW for a 100% fact that both WILL happen. They just have to gamble and build airplnes OR go out of business and do nothing. Its America and they have good lawyers, so they gamble and make planes and ALSO make 100's of millions of $$$ in profit.

Airlines are the same way. They know crashes will happen and are actually waiting and they are prepared for these crashes to happen. They have crash councelors ready, chaplins for the religeous people, media contacts ready to repspond, spokesman to say the right things to the public, and whatever else is part of an air crash. And all they are really worried about is "how do we keep the monetary damages to a minimum." The aircraft manufacturers also have speeches prepared for any crash that might happen. Its part of the aviation business. Live with it or get the hell out. If you think the great and horrible loss of life is NOT going to happen again, well, get the hell out of the aviation business, because you are part of the problem.

Its going to continue, crashes are going to continue, and arguments about how crashes happens will never stop.

Education before, after and during crash investigations are all we have to make the future safer.

Good luck.


space...............

I am hijacking this thread a bit in response to FLY91's post, I read through some of your posts about this terrible accident from which we have lost some absolutely wonderful people, fortunately 2 of them have survived.

"Go to school?" I think we are all trying to do that. It seems as though you are more concerned with liability and the pointing the finger at the manufacturer or airline instead of offering something that might help. I never mentioned that having a drag chute was a bad idea. I just stated that I didn't think the Learjet 45 needed it. I fly the 31A 35A, 55B, and 45XR currently as a full time and part time contract pilot and without trying to give you my resume, First Bill Lear designed the first generation of Lears because he wanted to improve Corporate & VIP travel and present the pilots and passengers the same performance, reliability, and safety that Commercial Airliners had at the time. A host of other owners such as Garrett bought Learjet and continued to improve the Learjet with safety enhancements. They are all good planes in their own way and yes there could be more improvements only if it was really necessary, practical, and cost effective.

Let's talk about the 45, I think I could tell you that Bombardier was sincere in it's wishes with the Clean-sheet design of the 45 and improved XR (this goes for the 40 as well) to improve safety with this aircraft. Improvements such as emergency free-fall Gravity extension trailing link landing gear with 1800 cycle life Carbon Fiber Brakes that offer unbelievable stopping power, plus the standard backup hydraulics and emergency brakes. An improved pressurization system that is much more user friendly and bleed-air system that supplements with HP air during low power settings when the anti-ice is on. A Spoileron back-up roll control in case of total aileron failure. Split elevator system with manual disconnect in case of elevator jam on one side. A much better designed wing with wing droop and vortilons to lower ref speeds and improve low speed handling amongst other features such as an improved spoiler system. Delta Fins that produce lift in the event of an inadvertant full stall that give this aircraft stall handling characteristics that are as docile as one could possibly hope for which also reduce ref speeds and dutch roll. (Bombardier Training Center in Dallas will let you demonstrate this in initial and recurrent training) a split bus DC electrical system that automatically load sheds and turns off power on the non-essential busses during a single or dual generator failure. The smallest jet in the world currently with EICAS or Crew alerting system and fuel system that is easier to operate than a 172. Those are just a few of the safety features that Bombardier designed into the "clean-sheet" Learjet 45 with as well as the BR engines mode which is standard on all XR versions which offer a significant increase in engine performance this along with the wing will puts this aircraft easily at FL 430, 450, and when your are light enough 470 which will definitely help with weather and fuel savings. Please go to school and get some IOE on an aircraft before you comment on design philosophies and an aircraft manufacture's code of ethics because It sounds as though you haven't flown this particular aircraft from your statements - if you had I don't think you would be making those statements about it. It's a very expensive aircraft for it's size but it looks like the Bombardier still wanted to offer their Pilot's and Customers that.

The aircraft manufacturers: sure they want to make money - don't we all? But they also have improved safety at the same time which in turn reduces liability for them in such a volatile personal injury lawsuit settlement hungry culture we seem to have nowadays. ( I know everyone needs to be accountable for negligence - but when does that end? ) Even with all of these enhancements - no piece of safety equipment is better than a well-trained pilot (Not my quote of course) but true.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Clean-sheet design of the 45 and improved XR (this goes for the 40 as well) to improve safety with this aircraft. Improvements such as emergency free-fall Gravity extension trailing link landing gear with 1800 cycle life Carbon Fiber Brakes that offer unbelievable stopping power, plus the standard backup hydaulics and emergency brakes. An improved pressurization that is much more user friendly and bleed-air system that supplements with HP air during low power settings when the ant-ice is on. A Spoileron back-up roll control in case of total aileron failure. Split elevator system with manual disconnect in case of elevator jam on one side. A much better designed wing with wing droop and vortilons to lower ref speeds and improve low speed handling amongst other features such as an improved spoiler system. Delta Fins that produce lift in the event of an inadvertant full stall that give this aircraft stall handling characteristics that are as docile as one could possibly hope for which also reduce ref speeds and dutch roll. (Bombardier Training Center in Dallas will let you demonstrate this in initial and recurrent training) a split bus DC electrical system that automatically load sheds and turns off power on the non-essential busses during a single or dual generator failure.

All nice things, that were already on airplanes in the 1960's.