Today is a very important day!!!

[KeroseneSnorter]

since I am a permanent-resident, not a citizen.


Today is also an anchor day for American democracy where government can make up a rule off of its ass, doesn't have to pass through Congress or Senate and have at it..

Until you go earn your citizenship you have zero right to Bit#h. If you do not like it, catch the next flight back to wherever you are a citizen.

We take almost all who wish to become a citizen, just take the test, forfit your current citizenship in your native country, pay your taxes, and serve in the military to defend the country if called. Then you can Bit#h all you want, and I will fight to defend your right to do it.

There is probably a good chance that you come from a country that wouldn't allow me, a U.S. Citizen, to be employed as a pilot in your country. Or at least make me jump through a bunch of hoops to do it. You probably even support the idea when your at home, since it makes it easier for you to aquire a flying job after you build your time and experience flying in the States.

What Country are you from?

 

[350DRIVER]

Until you go earn your citizenship you have zero right to Bit#h. If you do not like it, catch the next flight back to wherever you are a citizen.

We take almost all who wish to become a citizen, just take the test, forfit your current citizenship in your native country, pay your taxes, and serve in the military to defend the country if called. Then you can Bit#h all you want, and I will fight to defend your right to do it.

There is probably a good chance that you come from a country that wouldn't allow me, a U.S. Citizen, to be employed as a pilot in your country. Or at least make me jump through a bunch of hoops to do it. You probably even support the idea when your at home, since it makes it easier for you to aquire a flying job after you build your time and experience flying in the States.

What Country are you from?

My thoughts exactly, well stated..

FlyingToIST,

I do understand your point but if you want to fly then the simple solution is to accept it and move on, easy as that.

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[FlyingToIST]

Flyingtofirst would you mind sharing with me what country you hail from?? I would be very curious . How does that government react when people express "critical views" of government mandate? that being said :


safety for a little inconvenience ? are we forgetting the rag heads who took flying lessons -not wanting to learn to land just fly ?? Give it a break! .In some countries you cannot even own or rent a plane or fly at night without an Instrument rating . I think you should focus on the unfortunate aviation crashes of late and pray that they don't stop people from flying altogether ! People have this idea airplanes are dropping outta the sky 100 times a day when in reality its a very safe mode of transport and a great pleasure for us.

on a more personal note...being that you are freelance are you paying "ALL" your taxes?? Or are you part of the flock of people here on visas or illegally making money in the underground economy and sending a western union with your $ back to one of 50 foreign countries . ?
You are obviously an intelligent person having the cfi and all but how about taking the citizenship test and helping build this country and change the way the government is run . I get a little tired of any criticism of this country from non citizens . Sorry if that offends you but its from my heart Vavso

Vavso,
first of all get over your prejudice about me. I own an LLC , yes I am an operator as a freelencer. Instead of reporting it as a personal income I incorporated. I am already in the process of "trying to become" a normal flight school.

Secondly, I have been in the States "legally" for last 15 years LEGALLY. It takes years to become a citizen.. I am complaining because people are inconveniencing a lot of people, costing a lot of revenue and jobs just on the grounds of "citizen = good ; non-citizen = bad". As a matter of fact a previous flight school operator who is a citizen is the one who is cheating to government on taxes.. How ironic

Thirdly, being a permanent resident doesn't prevent me from doing work through my other LLC in the IT sector, hiring people and creating jobs.

Lastly, there is a difference between taking the citizenship test and CFI written. There is 5 year waiting period and even after that it takes about 2-3 years.

One more thing, I have 5 people that are dying to get flight training from "old country". They are trying to get into the airlines. They chose Canada instead of US. I wonder why.

I had a British gentleman who was in states for a wedding and wanted to get his private over the summer. When he found out about the waiting period, etc. He gave up on it.. Guess who lost???

As one of the posters put it, aviation was/is one of the biggest export items of this country. Guess who is going to lose on that also..

I just cannot believe that you can fly a C17 as a permanent resident for the government but you cannot get in a C172 w/out some government work.

Last time I checked speaking out against injustice was one of the founding principles of this country? What different does it make if I am a citizen or not. I am in the same boat as you are..

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Secondly, I have been in the States "legally" for last 15 years LEGALLY. It takes years to become a citizen..


Lastly, there is a difference between taking the citizenship test and CFI written. There is 5 year waiting period and even after that it takes about 2-3 years.

15 - 8 = 7 years. Why have you not taken your citizenship test yet?

Do you intend to?

Again, what is your country of origin? Your lack of an answer to several queries by posters leads me to believe that you may be from one of the "questionable" countries that may warrant such a background check on you.

 

[FlyingToIST]

15 - 8 = 7 years. Why have you not taken your citizenship test yet?

Do you intend to?

Again, what is your country of origin? Your lack of an answer to several queries by posters leads me to believe that you may be from one of the "questionable" countries that may warrant such a background check on you.

I am not going to answer that because it is personal. Obviously you have no clue about visa processes, about how a person can stay a permanent resident that long, etc.

I didn't say that I was permanent resident for 15 years. I have BEEN in states for 15 years all of them LEGALLY.

The rest is for you to figure out. Call an immigration lawyer.. Go to INS' website. etc. et.

I am not here to educate you about the immigration process, I am here to raise a concern about some legislation that was passed with no oversight of Congress or Senate that will have an impact on the lives and livelyhoods of people.

Period!!

 

[dseagrav]

I am not here to educate you about the immigration process, I am here to raise a concern about some legislation that was passed with no oversight of Congress or Senate that will have an impact on the lives and livelyhoods of people.

Period!!

And again, until you become a citizen and put your ballot where your mouth is, you have no right to bitch!

Period!!

 

[350DRIVER]

I am not going to answer that because it is personal. Obviously you have no clue about visa processes, about how a person can stay a permanent resident that long, etc.

I didn't say that I was permanent resident for 15 years. I have BEEN in states for 15 years all of them LEGALLY.

The rest is for you to figure out. Call an immigration lawyer.. Go to INS' website. etc. et.

I am not here to educate you about the immigration process, I am here to raise a concern about some legislation that was passed with no oversight of Congress or Senate that will have an impact on the lives and livelyhoods of people.

Period!!

Become a citizen then and stop whining, until you do such you won't find many to support your beliefs. Call AOPA, surely they can help !!!! (a tad of sarcasm injected).

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[avbug]

Flyingtoast is entirely ignorant about the program, as are several other posters who have made wildly inaccurate comments about the nature and requirements that it imposes.

One poster questioned why flight schools are burdened with doing the leg work for a student. The flight school is not. Clearly not. The program requires that the student submit for a background check, which is not conducted by the flight school. All the student need do is complete minor paperwork, get fingerprinted, submit it. The school's part? TSA contacts the school to see if the student is known. Big imposition there.

The instructor has a paperwork burden, keeping records? Instructors have ALWAYS had a burden to keep records...nothing new here. Lemme tell you something, mate. Keeping records has kept my butt out of prison, when I was able to prove I was in the clear, and has kept me out of a very big law suit when I was able to show exactly what training I did and didn't do with detailed records, after a foolish student years later crashed an airplane while not current, with no medical, in a place he shouldn't have been.

Keeping records makes sense...keep them a long time. Think that's a burden to you? Not hardly. I can testify to the fact that while you never may need to refer to them, keeping copious detailed notes of all your activities with your students may save your bacon...and just once is all it takes to make you a believer. Only one insinuation, one false accusation...just be able to show your part...you'll be glad you did. Don't whine about the terrible burden that places on an instructor. It's salvation.

Flight schools shutting down, hmmm? If a flight school gets all it's business from abroad, there might be some hesitation, but that's still no deterrent. If a flight school incorporates the process into their customer service, it can become nearly seamless. Part of doing business. The draw for students to come here has always been the cost, and that hasn't changed. It's still easier and less expensive to obtain certification here than any place in the world. After a handfull of foriegn students used that easy, inexpensive training to kill thousands, I have zero heartburn about minor measures such as this that take a step toward helping to prevent it.

For those here who have been whining about flyingtoast not becoming a citizen, get off it. My mother isn't a citizen. She's a legal alien, has been paying taxes here entire life, but is not a citizen. During a particular international incident when I was younger, there was some doubt as to weather the US would side with her country of origin or not; we faced the possibility of needing to leave the country...until the US elected to back up that country and all blew over.

Should she become a citizen? No. She doesn't enjoy the right to vote, but she pays full taxes, performs a variety of community service, obeys all laws, and executes every duty that any citizen might. And she's been here 40 years now.

Me? I'm a citizen. I support her, I support citizens alike. I see no difference. Those who push that button might have a serious bone of contention with me and no leg to stand upon. Those who push it too far might not have the leg at all when we're done.

Now, to make a point. Would Mom need a fingerprint check if for some elaborately bizarre reason she elected to seek flight training? Yes, she would. Would she need it more than once? No, she would not. Do I have any heartburn requiring my own mother to undergo a fingerprinting and background check, and to pay the fee? Nope. It's the law. It wasn't passed covertly, nor is it some "facist" effort to undermine the government. Once she obtains her sport pilot,or recreational pilot, or private pilot, would she need to pay a processing fee, if training in an aircraft in which she's already qualified? No, she wouldn't. If we did all the training at once, including training in additional aircraft, would she need to pay the training fee over and over again? No, because it would be one instance of training.

Does her "clearance" last only 30 days? No, it does not. If someone had bothered to look into the program, up to 30 days advance notice might be required for certain category training, but that's it.

Read about the program, and learn it. The deep dark requiremenents for flight instructors? Fill out a few minutes of internet form, then go to the FSDO with two forms of ID for verification. Done. You're in. You're a training provider that's known and validated. Though stuff, that. I can see why flight schools might be collapsing under the burden. Then when a student applies, go on line and verify the TSA query that the student really is known and has spoken to you. Tough stuff, again.

Do you need to do anything else beyond the ordinary? No, not really. Does the student need to lie pinned to the ramp with his head beneath your boot heel while you elicit painful fingerprints under electric or chemical restraint, for each flight lesson, each flight review, etc? No. Read the program. Understand it; it's not complicated. It's straightforward, it's not some evil, totalitarian, dictator-imposed act of horror. It's a requirement to have a background check, and then get on with training.

Get off the high horse about citizens. Don't like non-citizens competing for work? Neither do I. But what possible heartburn can anybody have about a non-citizen who provides employment, who pays taxes, who contributes to society? I surely don't. What heartburn could you possibly have about a non-citizen who comes here seeking training, brining money into the country? I don't. And neither does this program; it merely applies a face of legitimacy to the effort, and helps remove the stigma from the students. The students are clean, validated, cleared. It's a simple process.

C'mon folks. I get fingerprinted. I'm a citizen with a fist full of FAA certificates and a long work history. I've been in various government service(s). I've been in law enforcement. I'm a known quantity. I've been certified in the past to conduct the background checks. But I still submit for clearances, badges, whatever...and I have zero heartburn with it. None. Check me until you're blue in the face...and then again. Just give me some gojo to get the ink off. Then check again. Am I giving up any rights? Not a whit. Is it an imposition on me? Not a whit. Am I going to speak evil of the government or my flag as a result of it? Not a whit.

For those who do think these basic laws and protections, brought about legally and with appropriate notice, are wrong, then follow the basic legislative process of appeal. The system is set up for that. Start by writing your elected officials. I've never had one fail to write back in many years. I've seen changes over the years. Run for office yourself. Arnold did. Jesse did. Ronald did. You can too. But don't sit down and whine and cry about the facist totalitarian regime that lords over us, cuz folks, it just ain't so. You want to make a difference? Then stop talking and do it. Your whining is giving me a headache.

For God's sake read the program and understand it first before you cut down the country, crucify legal aliens, burn the flag, or post ignornantly about the nature of the program. Is that too much to ask?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I am not going to answer that because it is personal. Obviously you have no clue about visa processes, about how a person can stay a permanent resident that long, etc.

I didn't say that I was permanent resident for 15 years. I have BEEN in states for 15 years all of them LEGALLY.

The rest is for you to figure out. Call an immigration lawyer.. Go to INS' website. etc. et.

I am not here to educate you about the immigration process, I am here to raise a concern about some legislation that was passed with no oversight of Congress or Senate that will have an impact on the lives and livelyhoods of people.

Period!!

Again you have avoided the question so I will take that to mean you are of Middle Eastern decent or other local that would be considered a "high risk" country of origin, as far as homeland security would be concerned. Given that the terrorist attacks were performed by gentlemen from that section of the world, and flight trained in the U.S. I have zero problem with you, a non-citizen, being required to undergo a rigorous background check.

As to why you haven't taken the citizen test? I could care less, But until you do, I do not want to hear squat from you about being required to undergo background screening.

To me, a U.S. Citizen and Airline Pilot, If you were not screened I would see that as an impact on the lives and livelyhoods of people. After all, Thousands of Citizens lost their lives and Tens of thousands of U.S. Citizens lost their job as a direct impact of the lack of screening and security procedures that let the bad guys in and allowed 9/11 to occur.

So I welcome you again to the U.S. Smile while you are being printed, If you don't want to be printed.......take the next flight out. But you have no right to complain!

 

[Vavso]

Flyingtofirst or is it Baha??

I have come upon another site that flyingtofisrst has rambled about this EXACT thread word for word using the name Baha which leads me to believe he may be from Mexico be that as it may Baha or flyintofirst,in the interest of full disclosure ... where are you from ??? As far as how long it takes to secure citizenship however long it takes you should go for it or get off the pot . Until then stay off the soap box its starting to teeter totter . BTW Seattle is a beautiful area isn't it?
Los Estados Unidos es un bueno pais ! Buena suerte Baha o Flyintofirst !! Viva Vavso