Today is a very important day!!!

[lymanm]

Wow, alot of issues hit home with me on this thread. I've read the new rules and I think I understand them, and obviously plan on following them. However, I would like some feedback on where I'd fit within these new rules:

-Born in Canada
-Legal Native American Indian (Iroquois) & thus have American Permanent Resident Status courtesy of the Jay Treaty of 1794
-obtained my FAA CFI in 2000
-have accumulated 400 dual given during the summers of 2002, 2003 & 2004 in the USA
-have paid US taxes on income earned during these summers
-registered for the Draft (as required by the Permanent Resident Status)

From what I understand, I'll be Cat 2 if/when I undergo training in a large (12.5+) aircraft. As I am still current, I'll be Cat 4 to rent/instruct in an aircraft I'm already qualified for until my currency lapses, in which case I'll revert to a Cat 3. If I'm mistaken, please let me know!

As far as the moral question regarding citizenship goes - PLEASE! I'll venture to guess my family and ancestors can pre-date 99% of posters on this board. Natrually, modern laws say I was born in Canada, and I assume full responsibility of being a non-US citizen when it comes to background checks. While I think this is wildly unfair when applied to my specific situation, I also am not naive to deny that it's a different world in 2004.

For those who say Permanent Residents are "lucky to be here", I advise current citizens to look for a wider perspective and investigate your ancestry. No doubt, you at one time would have been excluded in the exact same way you currently exclude and persecute others.

I've always planned on obtaining citizenship to avoid having to undergo checks such as this. But, in light of this type of preposterous and ineffective regulation, I'm quite happy living out my career in the US as a resident only.

 

[80/20]

Lymanm, asking out of curiosity and not suggesting that you should, would you have to give up your Canadian passport to become a US citizen? How about residents from other countries – anyone?

 

[PNEPilot]

I'm a UK citizen, permanent resident alien, been here eight years...

The US Naturalization process would require me to renounce my British citizenship and hand over my passport to the US authorities, yes.

I could then subsequently apply for a British Passport - that is forever my right since I was born in Britain, however such an application would result in revocation of my American citizenship.

My daughter, born of my American wife in the USA, is automatically an American citizen, of course, and, as my daughter, also has the right live and work in Britain and to hold a British passport as well, without renouncing her American citizenship

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Wow, alot of issues hit home with me on this thread. I've read the new rules and I think I understand them, and obviously plan on following them. However, I would like some feedback on where I'd fit within these new rules:

-Born in Canada
-Legal Native American Indian (Iroquois) & thus have American Permanent Resident Status courtesy of the Jay Treaty of 1794
-obtained my FAA CFI in 2000
-have accumulated 400 dual given during the summers of 2002, 2003 & 2004 in the USA
-have paid US taxes on income earned during these summers
-registered for the Draft (as required by the Permanent Resident Status)

From what I understand, I'll be Cat 2 if/when I undergo training in a large (12.5+) aircraft. As I am still current, I'll be Cat 4 to rent/instruct in an aircraft I'm already qualified for until my currency lapses, in which case I'll revert to a Cat 3. If I'm mistaken, please let me know!

As far as the moral question regarding citizenship goes - PLEASE! I'll venture to guess my family and ancestors can pre-date 99% of posters on this board. Natrually, modern laws say I was born in Canada, and I assume full responsibility of being a non-US citizen when it comes to background checks. While I think this is wildly unfair when applied to my specific situation, I also am not naive to deny that it's a different world in 2004.

For those who say Permanent Residents are "lucky to be here", I advise current citizens to look for a wider perspective and investigate your ancestry. No doubt, you at one time would have been excluded in the exact same way you currently exclude and persecute others.

I've always planned on obtaining citizenship to avoid having to undergo checks such as this. But, in light of this type of preposterous and ineffective regulation, I'm quite happy living out my career in the US as a resident only.

Lymanm,

Indeed, most folks here can trace their ancestry to europe, just as most in the western hemisphere. The main issue that irks me is the fact that we have a huge number of people in our country that moan and complain about this and that.

A few examples,

Currently there is a movement from the right to give LEGAL drivers licenses to ILLEGAL Aliens.

Those same people want to give aliens a LEGAL vote in this country.

In my dippy little hometown of 10000 or so a couple of years back a group not native to the town OR this country wanted the city to post all public signs in both Spanish and English.

And now, after 9/11 we have a group of non native, non citizen residents, and people with work visas all bent out of shape that we want to check on their background.

Somehow they expect us to let them have all the rights and priviledges of a citizen, even though in some cases they do not even want to put enough effort in to even learn the national language. They want to vote on issues in my country and be able to tell me how I should live and act, yet they do not want to give up their "Foreign" status.

If you wish to work or live here, fine. If you wish to keep your Canadian, or UK or whatever passport and citizenship, fine, I can understand your allegiance to your home country. Just don't expect to be treated like you are a citizen of our country when you have no vested interest or desire to become a member of our country.

So I can understand that your ancestry is Native American Indian, and that your ancesters were here before my ancesters were, BUT if you wish to excercise the rights and privledges of your native born ancestry, you must give up your Canadian status and privledges, you cannot have it both ways! Either you ARE a U.S. Citizen, or your are NOT a U.S. Citizen. Until you decide to owe your allegiance to the defense and wellfare of this country, you have no right to complain about how we run OUR country.



P.S. I was in Canada last week, perhaps I should have complained about having to clear customs and do all that paperwork, after all my country used to be a member of the British Empire also, So why do I have to bother with all that formality, they should have just let me in no problem! And what is the deal with the speedlimits posted in Kmh, You guys should really change that to Mph so I don't get confused while I am driving around up there on my U.S. Drivers license. And that whole ICAO phrasiology thing while in Canadian airspace, I say you ought to let me say "position and hold" if I want to!!!! By the way your parliment in Ottawa (sp?) is really off their rocker, where do I send my protest to their latest rulings? I have limited knowledge on how your legal system works but that shouldn't matter because I don't like it anyhow so I want it changed!!

 

[PNEPilot]

I don't think many of us permanent residents have a problem with submitting to a background check - pretty much all of us already did before we got here anyway, so no real harm in doing it again if you really think it's going to help...

what I did object to was the wording of the rule which led me, and many others, including AOPA, to beleive that we would have to go through the whole shenanigans every time we needed a BFR, a rental checkout, or even a quick trip round the pattern with a CFI to practice crosswinds. Until the TSA's responses to comments were published yesterday there was no indication that this was not the case.

I still feel it's a really shabby piece of cobbled together legislation that might have been understandable had it been released on 9/20/2001, but it's disturbing that this is the best they can come up with after three years.

There must be hundreds of thousands of foreign pilots who have quite legitimatley learned to fly in the USA, yet now we are all tarred with the same brush as the four hijackers... and anyone who believes that simply making new rules is going to do anything to stop terrorists is in urgent need of a serious reality check: terrorists carry out their deeds with no regard for laws and rules - Mohammed Atta and his colleagues broke plenty of already exisiting ones.

 

[FlyingToIST]

I have come upon another site that flyingtofisrst has rambled about this EXACT thread word for word using the name Baha which leads me to believe he may be from Mexico be that as it may Baha or flyintofirst,in the interest of full disclosure ... where are you from ??? As far as how long it takes to secure citizenship however long it takes you should go for it or get off the pot . Until then stay off the soap box its starting to teeter totter . BTW Seattle is a beautiful area isn't it?
Los Estados Unidos es un bueno pais ! Buena suerte Baha o Flyintofirst !! Viva Vavso

Sorry no comprende.. The point that I wanted to make was you cannot just show up to take the citizenship test.. If the government allowed me to do so today, I'd run to it. .. Keronsesnorter is making me laugh big time to.. Would you like my address and SSN with it?

 

[buckdanny]

How about residents from other countries – anyone?

I can keep my French citizenship when I become a US citizen in 2006, but will gladely wipe my a$$ with my French passport and send it back to Mr. Chirac American at heart all the way baby! Just born on the wrong side of the pond...

Buck

 

[FL000]

I can keep my French citizenship when I become a US citizen in 2006, but will gladely wipe my a$$ with my French passport and send it back to Mr. Chirac American at heart all the way baby! Just born on the wrong side of the pond...

Buck

Please allow me to be the first to buy you a beer when that happens. Welcome...in advance.

 

[midlifeflyer]

An absolutely incredible number of comments from people who claim to love this great country while vehemently hating the most important things it stands for.

How sad.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Would you like my address and SSN with it?

Nope, but the Feds. do before your next training cycle.

 

[PNEPilot]

Actually the SSN is about the only thing they don't want

 

[FL000]

...while vehemently hating the most important things it stands for.

How sad.

Non-citizens telling us how to run our country? No thanks.

I guess though that if Kerry is elected I'll have to learn to live with it.

 

[NuGuy]

Please allow me to be the first to buy you a beer when that happens. Welcome...in advance.

And allow me to buy the second!

Nu

 

[lymanm]

To the first question, No I would not have to surrender my Canadian citizenship to obtain my US one. But seeing that I don't feel the need to vote, what would I have to gain by obtaining US citizenship?

"And now, after 9/11 we have a group of non native, non citizen residents, and people with work visas all bent out of shape that we want to check on their background."

I'm fully aware of the situation. I understand your frustration regarding that issue - and if you read my initial post carefully, I agree that in 2004, there has to be some regulations regarding background checks on Residents. I accept that no problemo. But I don't think it's fair to lump my unusual circumstance with what you refer to above.

"Either you ARE a U.S. Citizen, or your are NOT a U.S. Citizen. Until you decide to owe your allegiance to the defense and wellfare of this country, you have no right to complain about how we run OUR country."

Hmmm, paying taxes, contributing to the economy and signing up for the draft I would say give me plenty of voice.

I like your dig on Canada, it was almost cute. You clearly no very little about what you talk about. On the other hand, did I mention I went ahead a obtained a BA in US history?

"An absolutely incredible number of comments from people who claim to love this great country while vehemently hating the most important things it stands for."

I'm not going to lie - I don't love the US. I love elements of it, namely the chance a better flying career than what I'd expect in Canada. I can live in the US legally and I can earn a living legally. I have no expectation of being able to vote, and am willing to go along with these new TSA regs, as inappropriate to my specific situation as they are. I'll be as opinionated as I want. What's the problem with that?

 

[Vandal]

What a clown bringing not saying where he is from...feel sorry for his students.

 

[cale42]

While I find that it is very rare that I agree with Avbug, I would like to wholeheartedly second all the comments he made on this topic. The law is a small inconvenience at best for flight schools and independent flight instructors alike. However I DO feel that there needed(and still needs to be) more education on the subject. As a flight instructor that tries to independently keep up on new legislation and also works for a large flight school, I feel these new rules kind of snuck up on me and I'm not entirely sure how to handle them. However I will happily learn and abide by the process.


For all of you on your high horse because you had the good fortune to be born in the US and thus are a citizen, GET OFF IT. There are plenty of ppl from assorted countries that come here as non-citizens and contribute more to what makes "America" than you ever will. Where you were born doesn't mean s%&t to me. It's what you've done since. So learn to evaluate people on who they are and what they offer, not on some technicality about the citizenship they hold.

Thanks for the well thought out post Avbug.

cale

 

[Dizel8]

"Non-citizens telling us how to run our country?"

Sorry bub, but the US have been telling the rest of the world how to run their countries for decades.

While I understand your patriotism, and absolutely disagree with giving drivers licenses etc. to ILLEGAL immigrants, if feel you need to wind your neck in a bit.

 

[PNEPilot]

Think I've had enough of the blinkered ignorant xenophobia on this board. Obviously the only truth held self-evident here is that all Americans are created equal... fortunately I've been here long enough to know that isn't true.

See y'all

 

[Vavso]

Lymann and Cale

Lymann:

You left out the opportunity to get the best health care in the world . Many of the upper class Canadians come here regularly for access to our health care. Citizens should get first crack ...enough of our own citizens are not getting ample health care .BTW where you gonna get YOUR flu shot ?? vavso

Cale 42: so what is the great benefit a non citizen offers us The right to live here in arguably the best country in the world , not have to be drafted if and when the time comes, take up space in schools that our own people find over crowded . The opportunity to earn $ here ship it home and after the country has given to you you can pack up and leave?? BTW are the taxes you pay here higher or lower than home .?? Whats the expression ? "In for a penny in for a pound "or something ??? Vavso

Not to mention the foreign medical students who squeeze out our own for a position in medical school and then bug out back home leaving nothing behind !

 

[Ailerongirl]

"In for a penny in for a pound "

*grin* Funny that on this thread, the expression quoted is a British one!

 

[IFlyGC]

You guys/gals really P*SS me off with this "I hate foreigners" cr*p. Yes, I'm a Brit (and d*mn proud of it). No, I'm not going to renounce my citizenship just to get the right to vote and to sit at jury duty. Why do I (and probably a lot of others who are over here) stay here? Probably the same as in AvBug's mum's case.....family. Just as it's unfair to FORCE me to renounce my citizenship, it would also be unfair to force my wife to give up her US citizenship if she wanted to move back to the UK. It's called compromise....we accept certain things in order to live a harmonious life wherever we choose to live.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but 99% of the laws brought about after 9/11 are nothing more than words designed to make the public feel better.

TSA security checkpoints - we've all been through and seen the flaws, it's a joke.

Fingerprinting candidates for a/c over 12,500# (the old rules) - yeah, it checks for current terrorists....here's a novel idea....lets keep some innocent guys around to put through training and have THEM crash the planes.

Bulletproof cockpit doors - yep, a bulletproof door held closed with a pin no bigger than 1/4" in diameter and 3/4" in length.....real smart!

New TSA laws for foreign pilots - Do you really think the 9/11 assh*les checked their logbooks to make sure they had a current BFR or 6 approaches in 6 months? Sure, fingerprint candidates if you must, but it isn't going to stop people who really want to learn to fly (for terrorist purposes, anyway). Heck, learn in Iran and then hijack a plane over here.

and that's just 3 of the issues!!!!

The problem is that most of us foreigners see the USA with different glasses. We've seen it from the outside. Just like how racists are racist because that's how they've been raised and come to believe what they say, that's unfortunately how a LOT of americans are. You've only ever seen it from the "America is the best, smartest, blah blah blah......." side of things. Don't get me wrong, this IS a great country to live in and I'm honoured to be allowed to live here, but there are much bigger issues out there. A lot of these rules brought in to make the country safer really don't work....they are a JOKE!

FFDO's are a great idea! Finally a great law! Allow the pilots to defend the plane they are in charge of. Oh wait, hang on a second...... if both of the pilots are foreign then the plane is unprotected. Foreigners aren't allowed to become an FFDO's. Do we fly less important planes? Nope...still has my 121 companies' name on the side.

Is there a fix to all these issues? Sure there is.....but it'll never happen. The only way to prevent a hijacking is to make it painfully obvious that trying to take over an aircraft will be futile. FFDO's on every flight or air marshalls on every flight. REAL screening at airports....not that x-ray crap. Last time I checked, a sharp pencil won't show up on x-rays. Nor will sharpened plastic...or glass. Want REAL security then open EVERY bag and LOOK in EVERY carry-on. It's not going to happen.

Anyway, why the double standards against foreigners? Do American's have to get checked out when they rent a u-haul and then go to home depot to buy 1000 bags of fertilizer, or is Timothy McVeigh the only American who'll ever harm this country?

Before you flame me (which I know some of you will) keep this in mind.....do you REALLY feel safer flying today? Instead of typing to flame me, why not type to your senator with some suggestions on how to improve security. WE ARE PILOTS....WE SEE THE SYSTEM AT WORK....WE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO FIX IT!!! Rather than bitch about it, why don't we fix the bloody thing!!!

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Amen buddy.. What a bunch of BS..

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Will I ever give up my Dutch passport? No, never!

1) Do I feel proud en privileged to work in the US en pay tax in this country? You betcha!

2) Does my country fight your war in iraq as real brothers would do side by side? Yup you betcha! (And we really pissed of our neighbors -french and germans- by doing so, but we couldn’t care any less)

3) What does it take for you to get a job in my country?

- JAA License
- The right to work and live in the EU

4) What did it take for me to get a job in your country?

- FAA license
- The right to work and live in the US

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Oh and by the way, Yes I do know of a few yanks flying for KLM mainline.. And guess what? They are more then welcome, as far as I am concerned.. Did they have to give up their US passport? Guess what? >> no! And that’s ok with me, I can perfectly understand that

 

[Flyingdutchman]

This discussion is always so stupid.. For you Mr. American, go ask where you mom’s grandmother is born.. UK? Ireland? Holland? Spain?
Get over it..

 

[IFlyGC]

Hey Dutchman....I feel your pain but this thread is already divided enough. The whole purpose of my rambling up there was to try and remind people that we are all on the same side. We need to work together to solve this problem, not antagonize them even more.

 

[Vavso]

My rant

my grandparents moved here became citizens and fought in a war for this country They also learned to speak english after arriving here.(though they were european .) The real test is whether in a major conflict you would elect to be drafted to fight for a country you live in .Or would you let a citizen of that country die to protect your butt in that country wherever it may be . The thought of a native born or citizen fighting for a free loader that would not put his bacon in the fire to protect his new home whether permanent or temporary is the ? . I am still wondering where Fly to first comes from . What is the big secret??? In the meantime when I need my next IPC ,BFR or add on rating it will be from a citizen . ANALOGY: The difference between a renter and homeowner is the renter usually takes no pride in his home and lets it go to hell,a home owner makes his home something special and keeps it well maintained . I cannot help but to wonder what some of these people are renters or homeowners.
I am full up to the throat with foreigners who come and pitch a tent here and wind up speaking in only their native tongue, bad mouthing the country in any form and then running down to Western Union to ship a bag of $ home to honduras,Turkey , India or 200 other countries.If you do not like that pack up your tent ,get on the next plane outta here and save some air for someone else to breathe - FREE AIR Vavso

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Dutch and English people die for your country as we speak buddy, while fighting your war, and without being US citizens. Whatever, I’ll rest my case. Hate me as much as you want, I don’t hate you.



FD.

 

[Ailerongirl]

my grandparents moved here became citizens and fought in a war for this country They also learned to speak english after arriving here.(though they were european .) The real test is whether in a major conflict you would elect to be drafted to fight for a country you live in .Or would you let a citizen of that country die to protect your butt in that country wherever it may be . The thought of a native born or citizen fighting for a free loader that would not put his bacon in the fire to protect his new home whether permanent or temporary is the ? . I am still wondering where Fly to first comes from . What is the big secret??? In the meantime when I need my next IPC ,BFR or add on rating it will be from a citizen . ANALOGY: The difference between a renter and homeowner is the renter usually takes no pride in his home and lets it go to hell,a home owner makes his home something special and keeps it well maintained . I cannot help but to wonder what some of these people are renters or homeowners.
I am full up to the throat with foreigners who come and pitch a tent here and wind up speaking in only their native tongue, bad mouthing the country in any form and then running down to Western Union to ship a bag of $ home to honduras,Turkey , India or 200 other countries.If you do not like that pack up your tent ,get on the next plane outta here and save some air for someone else to breathe - FREE AIR Vavso

Couple of things Vavso....

I'll bet for the most part permanent citizens who calls America hme *would* be willing to fight alongside American troops fighting for this country. When a citizen of another country moves to the States and is a legal, fully contributing member of society it's usually of their own free will.

Also your homeowner/renter analogy is very sterotypical. I think you'll find that renters take as much pride in their home as homeowners do....it's still a HOME to them, even though they don't physically own the building.

 

[TO024]

Ok, I am really confused here. Basically what does this law say? Will it affect me as a student pilot in a university aviation program?