This is why the last payrates offered by NJA were "insulting."

[FamilyGuy]

Really? Nice try - here's the language to which you're referring:

Yep.

Originally Posted by Tom Gasta
How can the Company afford “three times current payroll”.
Answer: First, the payroll is only 2 times as much...


Nice editing job....here's the next line...

How can the Company afford "three times current payroll".

Answer: First, the payroll is only 2 times as much, but "BM" knew that, he simply wants to dazzle you. The three times comes with the Retro pay.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I actually never said what I make here. I compared my former salary as a regional FO to a first-year captain at NetJets. Never said I was one. But I'll play along...

You dont have to say exactly what you make....you bracket it quite nicely with your earlier statements:

I came here knowing what the pay was. Overall, it's about the same (a little less, but not appreciably) as what I was making at my former job, with more upside potential.

Let's see, smart guy, my W2 from my last full year at a regional (as an FO, and nowhere near year 10) says $38,152. Netjets capt pay year 1 (most of those pesky bypass guys) is $37,560. Unless my math teacher was an idiot, last time I checked $38,152 was greater than $37,560.

I never said I am paying the "basic bills." My wife works as well - 2 incomes allows us to live where we do. I could have Lakers, Dodgers, and Angels season tickets right now as well, if I wanted to. (Maybe if your boyfriend had a job, you could afford those Buckeye tickets...) But if we decide to start a family and have my wife stay at home, we could no longer afford to live here. We could not afford the "basic bills."

Under the current CBA, I would not be able to afford it as a 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-, 5th-, 6th-, or 7th-year captain. Under the latest proposal, I would not be able to afford it as a 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-year captain, and just barely as a 4th-year.

Welcome to the United States in the 21st century.....dual income households are a fact of life these days....in fact, the majority of households in the US are dual income families.

Most of the reason for this is that everyone seems to want all the extra 'frills' - the 3,000 sq ft home, the season tickets to the alma mater, the health club memberships, etc....

We are confusing WANTS with NEEDS.

If you want those things, and you decide you're both willing to work to get those things, then that's your choice as a couple.

But you should not be trying to hold a company hostage economically to force them to pay a wage that allows you to get your "wants" on a single income basis.

Let the free market do its job and determine the appropriate level of compensation for a job. This business of artificially inflating wages above the equilibrium point will only lead to pain in the future as the market corrects itself.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Family Guy:

Free Market HAS already determined what is the approprite level of compensation and the averages are well published in this industry. The numbers are out there and have been for years.

Sad to say the pilots at Netjets are NOWHERE NEAR this level...and thats their fault. They accepted these wages.

Dual incomes are a "fact of life" these days? No they are not....maybe if you work for a bottom feeder......Most corp pilots I know can afford to have their wife stay home if she chooses and they are smart with finances.. You simply cant do this on a Netjet salary - (even if you live in a van down by the river.)

Get your money coming in the door or forever hold your peace....a hard lesson.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I'm an ass clown.

I bet Family Guy didn't get laid last night. Dude, posting at 2am on a Friday??? Scary.

 

[gunfyter]

Family guy does not have kids.

Dual Income.

Its not very possible to have your spouse work and take proper care of your children when you can't pitch in most of the time because you are on the road.

Maybe we should live on a collective farm too.

Pilots need to make a dual income on one job.

 

[Hogprint]

Fam guy posted:

Let the free market do its job and determine the appropriate level of compensation for a job

The market has a price for every airframe we operate. We don't come close on any but the BBJ. You can't in good conscience argue that.

It's OK to make money. Just ask your leadership.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Fam guy posted:

The market has a price for every airframe we operate. We don't come close on any but the BBJ. You can't in good conscience argue that.

It's OK to make money. Just ask your leadership.

I can argue that.

Its a tradeoff....give up some of the other perks that you've negotiated and you get more pay....its that simple.

NBAA wages are not applicable...not when you have much better work schedules, rules, benefits, stability, etc....

 

[Ultra Grump]

Originally Posted by Tom Gasta
How can the Company afford “three times current payroll”.
Answer: First, the payroll is only 2 times as much...


Nice editing job....here's the next line...

I know what the next line was. It doesn't refer to our "pay," which you did:

You haven't said you should be paid 3x your current pay, but one of your 'negotiators' Tom Gasta did...

The "pay" is not 3x, it's 2x.

You dont have to say exactly what you make....you bracket it quite nicely with your earlier statements:

I still don't see which years I was referring to in there, but believe what you like. Doesn't change the facts, does it?

But you should not be trying to hold a company hostage economically to force them to pay a wage that allows you to get your "wants" on a single income basis.

How exactly are we doing that? We're not on strike, in case you hadn't noticed. If you're willing to work for a wage that only fulfills your "needs" and none of your "wants," go ahead, that's your choice. I am willing to work to make my wages better so I can have some "wants," too.

Let the free market do its job and determine the appropriate level of compensation for a job. This business of artificially inflating wages above the equilibrium point will only lead to pain in the future as the market corrects itself.

Okay, professor. As has been pointed out, the free market has done its job - wages have been set in the NBAA averages. The company is artificially deflating them below the equilibrium point. We're trying to put them back where they should be.

I have had an epiphany. I have realized that I have been beating my head against a brick wall here on Flightinfo. I stepped out of a thread once before, now I'm out of the board altogether. I'm done with it. Our contract will be resolved eventually, and I'm certain that FamilyGuy, disptchrNJA, CMHTroll and the others will be VERY surprised at what the company is finally willing to step up and pay us. Time will tell. Enjoy.

 

[gunfyter]

When I get to 300 hrs on the year like the corporate guys I can stop flying?

When I only do 8 overnights a month, I get to go home everynight after that?

Their work rules and schedules are BETTER than ours. They are not on Strip alert every day and with 0001L showtimes.

 

[Hogprint]

famguy posted:

give up some of the other perks that you've negotiated and you get more pay

Told you before. Keep the crew food. I'd rather take the time to go eat.

On another note. Grump, don't give in to the FUD! Resist them to the bitter end!

 

[FlyFlyFly]

To get back on topic, $70,000 per year is required in most of California, and many other states, just to pay the most basic bills. Under the latest proposal, a pilot here would not hit that until their 4th year. Inadequate

Ok Grump, back to topic...

If it requires $70K per year, and you are not making that with your current job, then you best get off your ass and go find a job that will pay the bills.

Otherwise, you are just blaming someone else for your inability to make an intelligent decision.

 

[Heavy Set]

Ok Grump, back to topic...

If it requires $70K per year, and you are not making that with your current job, then you best get off your ass and go find a job that will pay the bills.

Otherwise, you are just blaming someone else for your inability to make an intelligent decision.

After 3+ years of negotiating, he and the rest of NJA folks have a right to expect more. Had NJA management negotiated in good faith and avoided transparent delay tactics and an agreement had been made years ago, perhaps this thread would not have been an issue. Grump is merely stating that living in California is very difficult on an NJA salary.

The problem for NJA is that many, many current NJA pilots either are moving on or are seriously considering it with resumes out - that is going to come back and bite NJA in the a$$ soon... And then they are going to wonder why the experienced pilots they desire aren't interested in flying for NJA - because it has a BAD REPUTATION and it doesn't reward loyalty... Even E190 rates at Jet Blue are starting to look good in comparison.

 

[WGFP48]

Ok Heavy Set....if the NJA pilots want to move on "Let Them"...in the mean time..they really don't have much in the way of options...there are thousands of un-employed airline pilots looking for jobs...and much to your chagrin they do have experience...the majors are not hiring, and the few regionals that are hiring are at a much lower rate of pay...so they (the NJA Pilots) have painted themselves in a corner....trust me if the pilots at NJA walk...there will be more than enough replacement pilots...the company will impose pay rates, and it will be a lot better than current...and there will be a flock of people wanting to work at NJA...afraid to cross the picket line?? NOT!!!!! They will cross in droves...they will come from Delta, NWA, United, and lots of other sources...do you think for a minute that ALPA or any pilots they have represented will honor a Teamster's picket line??? NOT!!!!! So I say "Let it happen" ...lets get this strike on with...and lets get rid of the cancerous Teamsters union once and for all..WGFP48

 

[FamilyGuy]

After 3+ years of negotiating, he and the rest of NJA folks have a right to expect more. Had NJA management negotiated in good faith and avoided transparent delay tactics and an agreement had been made years ago, perhaps this thread would not have been an issue. Grump is merely stating that living in California is very difficult on an NJA salary.

Heavy - you need to do your research before you come here with those blanket statements about managements delay tactics.

The fact is that the union spent 3 years renegotiating every clause in the agreement. The union didnt have any interest in doing an agreement after 9/11....they knew if they did an agreement at that time they wouldnt be able to press for the raises that they wanted to get.

Living in California is very difficult on most people's salaries. I think this is why so many people are leaving the state for areas with a more affordable cost of living.

However, NJA wages compare favorably to the average wages for most Californians. The average HOUSEHOLD income in California is approximately $49,320, according to the California state website: http://www.dof.ca.gov/HTML/FS_DATA/LatestEconData/FS_Income.htm

All of this is a moot point though, since less than 5% of NJA pilots live in California....

The problem for NJA is that many, many current NJA pilots either are moving on or are seriously considering it with resumes out - that is going to come back and bite NJA in the a$$ soon... And then they are going to wonder why the experienced pilots they desire aren't interested in flying for NJA - because it has a BAD REPUTATION and it doesn't reward loyalty... Even E190 rates at Jet Blue are starting to look good in comparison.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier posts. Let the free market determine the appropriate wage levels.

If NJA cant get enough pilots to meet thier needs then they will have to raise wages or improve the conditions in order to entice a sufficient number of people to work here.

And you may want to reconsider that JetBlue E190 rates comment. I posted a comparison of those rates to CURRENT NetJets rates over a month ago...

Years.. Jetblue.. NetJets
1..............4970......3130
2..............5040......3320
3..............5180......3930
4..............5320......4830
5..............5390......5080
6..............5530......5350
7..............5600......5630
8..............5740......6210
9..............5880......6470
10............5950......6730
11............6090......7030
12............6230......7330
13............6230......7650
14............6230......7980
Totals...79380....80670

Source: airlinepilotpay.com

And before Grump comes on here complaining that these rates are not valid because Jetblue doesnt have any E190's yet....

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050913/sptu001.html?.v=12

 

[Diesel]

around and around and around we go.

god it's fun to watch.