Things to do in mormonland

[uncle_rico]

I've stayed out of this debate this whole time, but I just have to say that I'm greatly offended, as a true Christian, by the fact that you'd try to pass yourselves off as a Christian. You can't be Mormon AND a Christian (in the Biblical sense), despite what your leaders and doctrine tell you.

You call yourselves Christian, but you don't believe in the same Bible and the same beliefs that all other real Christians do. I can call myself Catholic, but that doesn't make me Catholic if I don't believe in the Catholic faith and beliefs.

The Mormons have a very loose belief in being Christian, and they are being misleading when they tell people who don't know better that they are Christian. You can point to a few selected areas in your bible that makes it appear that way, but your doctrine and ours is totally different.

For those interested in the truth, why Mormons aren't true Christians, below is provided a couple great links for you to brush up on (complete with proper references):

http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mormons_christian.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns234.html

your avatar is actually a compliment rather than the insult I think you intend.

 

[niteflyr]

Lots of people in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, Tsunami in Indonesia etc. etc. are not complaining about the financial position of the LDS church, they do huge humanitarian work world wide.

 

[User998]

I went ahead and posted my reply in several parts, so you could easily break it apart paragraph by paragraph and give me your valued input regarding what I think.

Obviously, you spent no time reading the two websites I posted earlier. Had you read them, you would know that everything I previously put was the truth. You can flap your jaws all you want about your religion not being this or that, but its hard to refute a website that uses actual Mormon passages, and the real Bible scriptures to prove its point. I'll post it here again for you to read:
http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mormons_christian.htm

Yes, I am aware that you guys use the King James Version Bible. Fantastic, but what you also use is another book called the Book of Mormon. It's a supplement to the King James Bible, and has several books and scriptures thats not in my King James Bible. My church doesn't use supplemental manuals to preach the Gospel. They use the Bible; no one within the past couple hundred years has printed another "bible" to supplement our religion (as yours did with the Book of Mormon.) And I've got the Book of Mormon in my closet, and I've read through it many times, and know what I'm talking about. Here's another website that will help illustrate why the Book of Mormon is questionable at best:
http://www.contenderministries.org/mormonism/bomproblems.php

And since we're talking about the Book of Mormon, what's up with these alleged golden plates that your Book of Mormon was translated from - never being found. Interesting how they just "disappeared" after Joseph was done translating them. As for my Bible, you can find the original scrolls in a museum. Also, my Bible hasn't contained thousands of errors, ommissions, and corrections since it was created more then 2,000 years ago. Also, do yourself a favor and research the non-Mormon-controlled version of Joseph Smith's biography. What an interesting fellow he was before he started the church. For some more information on some errors, and corrections, visit this website: http://www.bible.ca/mor-1830-changes.htm

And when you say your churchs name is Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, again, having Jesus Christ in the title of your name does not mean you believe and view Jesus Christ in the same respects that other religions do. Your religion says Jesus and Satan are brothers. Your religion says God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus. Your religion believes in many god's, whereas my believes in One Supreme Being.

Seriously guys, I'm all for an equal sided conversation hear, I don't mind hearing your views and rebuttals, but how about giving me some substance to go on here. All I hear is generic "you're wrong" comments, and no substance to why we're wrong. You keep saying we don't understand your religion, or we're stupid, but your giving us no reason why we're not wrong. If we're wrong, outline it for us, and tell us what we're saying is wrong and why. Until then, I'm not convinced or impressed.

Also, I'd like to hear an honest comment on this question. Why is it that your religion is so "Us vs. Them". You don't outright say it, but it seems that all you guys ever are is on the defense. You're like the kid on the playground that gets picked on all the time, so you have a very stand-offish personality towards people who aren't "one of you." And you guys always make a point to make yourselves like your a special club or something.

And one more thing, I understand that everyone has their own religion, and their own beliefs (great, its a free country, thats what makes us so great!), BUT why is it that the Mormons are regarded by almost every other respectable religion in the world as a cult? The Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Protestants, etc don't look at each other as cults. We're all different, some even in extreme ways, but none of the other religions make beef about the others like they do Mormons. That's one of the views that all these religions all speak out and agree. Not putting you on the defensive, but I've always been curious why you guys are viewed like that - if you truly aren't.

And for the record, I've spent extensive time researching your church. My uncle was a member for over 20 years before getting out, I dated a girl for 2.5 years that was a member of your church, and I spent a lot of time trying to study and understand your religion. I also have lived in an area that is almost 80% Mormon, and for three years I use to work in a company of 45 people, where I was one of only three people who were not Mormon. I've had many friends who were Mormons, and have heard many conversations concerning your religion. I'm not simply a "hater" out there that's just spouting off with no educational background on the subject.

So please, let's keep this civil, and lets hear what you got for me.

 

[skyhogg]

again.....just barely enough knowledge of actual fact to be dangerous.

What could you possibly know about my knowledge from that post?

I went through all the training, learned all of the doctrine, spit out all of the pre-digested drivel and then spent several years trying to get out without feeling like i was going to be condemned.

Your tone sounds patronizing and you assume because someone critisizes, they must be ignorant...typical.

 

[Sig]

First rule of whether it's a cult or not:

Do they turn their back on you when you leave?

It defies all sense of "christendom" to not keep thy neighbor, no matter who or what transgressions they represent or have committed. Something about forgiveness abounds, but that's beyond the retributive, capricious nature of a cult.

 

[GVFlyer]

Unless "join the Mormon church" is on your shortlist of things to do while on layover in Salt Lake City, I suggest you all go back to discussing hotels, restaurants, bars and places to meet the ladies.

You know what they say about arguing politics and religion...


GV

 

[User998]

First rule of whether it's a cult or not:

Do they turn their back on you when you leave?

Interesting you bring that up, below is a checklist you can use to help determine if a particular organization is a cult or not. The checklist is created by the ICSA, a well respected group that specialize in educating the public about social-pyscological influence and control, authoritarianism, and zeoltry in cultic groups.

See for yourself how many of these may apply in this situation:
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm

 

[NEDude]

Yes, I am aware that you guys use the King James Version Bible. Fantastic, but what you also use is another book called the Book of Mormon. It's a supplement to the King James Bible, and has several books and scriptures thats not in my King James Bible. My church doesn't use supplemental manuals to preach the Gospel. They use the Bible; no one within the past couple hundred years has printed another "bible" to supplement our religion (as yours did with the Book of Mormon.) And I've got the Book of Mormon in my closet, and I've read through it many times, and know what I'm talking about.

One of the reasons why we beleive in the Book of Mormon is that we belive that God doens't only teach to one select group of people. We believe that God has spoken to all the inhabitants of the world, as they are all his children. We also beleive that in time, records of those teachings will come forth. How can a just God justify teaching only a small handful of people, and a very small region of the world a few thousand years ago, and expect to provide salvation to all? How do the inhabitants of the Americas and Asia 1000 years ago gain salvation? Are they lost because they didn't beleive in Jesus Christ, even though they had no knowledge of him? The LDS church believes quite simply that God has spoken with all of his Children, not just the folks in a small area of the middle east. We also believe that he is still speaking today, that he didn't stop 2000 years ago. Which is why we teach not only using the Bible and Book of Mormon, but also the Doctorine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and numerous other church publications and writings from our church officers past and present. That is the difference between the LDS church and yours. Yours believes that Gods communication with earth was to a select few in the middle east 2000 years ago, Mormons believe that God is has always been speaking, and to all of his Children.

Also, my Bible hasn't contained thousands of errors, ommissions, and corrections since it was created more then 2,000 years ago.

Ummm, you may want to talk with the thousands of Biblical scholars out there who would offer tons of proof out there that your claim is very wrong.

And when you say your churchs name is Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, again, having Jesus Christ in the title of your name does not mean you believe and view Jesus Christ in the same respects that other religions do.

Quite right, if fact we openly claim that our view on the nature of God and Jesus Christ is quite different than most other religions. That does not change the fact that we view Jesus Christ as the head of our religion, the Son of God, and Savior of the world.

Your religion says Jesus and Satan are brothers.

Again you are getting into LDS teachings of the nature of God, which you may disagree with. But more accurately the belief is that all beings in this universe are children of God. Satan is one of Gods children who rebelled against Him. Taking that view, yes Satan is in fact the brother of Jesus Christ.

Your religion says God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus.

Show me any official church teaching that says that. There are many Mormons who believe that to be the case, but it is not an official teaching of the Church.

Seriously guys, I'm all for an equal sided conversation hear, I don't mind hearing your views and rebuttals, but how about giving me some substance to go on here. All I hear is generic "you're wrong" comments, and no substance to why we're wrong. You keep saying we don't understand your religion, or we're stupid, but your giving us no reason why we're not wrong. If we're wrong, outline it for us, and tell us what we're saying is wrong and why. Until then, I'm not convinced or impressed.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one would not try and convince or impress you. Believe what you want. But please let us believe what we want. Even if it is a little unorthodox in your mind.

Also, I'd like to hear an honest comment on this question. Why is it that your religion is so "Us vs. Them". You don't outright say it, but it seems that all you guys ever are is on the defense. You're like the kid on the playground that gets picked on all the time, so you have a very stand-offish personality towards people who aren't "one of you." And you guys always make a point to make yourselves like your a special club or something.

Your post is an excellent example of why the "us versus them" attitude. You have obviously spent a lot of time and effort studying the LDS church in an effort to try and prove it wrong. So have many others. Also look at the early history of the church. Leaders were tortured, homes were burned, women raped, property stolen, among other things. The church was driven from place to place until finally the founder of the church was killed in cold blood by an angry mob. The church was driven out of a country founded on a principle of religious belief because of their religious beliefs. It wasn't until they moved a thousand miles away from anyone that they found peace. And you have to ask why we are on the defense?

And one more thing, I understand that everyone has their own religion, and their own beliefs (great, its a free country, thats what makes us so great!), BUT why is it that the Mormons are regarded by almost every other respectable religion in the world as a cult? The Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Protestants, etc don't look at each other as cults. We're all different, some even in extreme ways, but none of the other religions make beef about the others like they do Mormons. That's one of the views that all these religions all speak out and agree. Not putting you on the defensive, but I've always been curious why you guys are viewed like that - if you truly aren't.

The so-called Christian religions do often call us a cult. However most people who study cults do not put us in that category. Also, remember that there are different definitions of a cult. One definition is a group whose beliefs differ from traditional Prodestant Christian beliefs. Not an incorrect definition by most accounts. And in that context, then we could be considered a cult by many. Also keep in mind that the Mormon church is growing very rapidly. Some religions may consider it threatening and thus use scary words like "cult" to scare people away. If you were to look at academia and people who study cults from a social standpoint -ie why do people join cults, what are the dangers, etc they would not view us as one. Most of them define a cult as an organization that forces its members to cut themselves off from their society, friends and family. Forces them to abandon their careers and worldy possesions. Operates in secrecy and uses force and intimidation to keep their members. The LDS church comes nowhere close to this definition. These types of cults do not open their most sacred buildings to the public (anyone can tour a new Mormon temple before it is dedicated - in fact the public is openly invited to come take a tour when a new temple is built). These organizations do not make their teachings and beliefs openly available. The LDS church wants people to stay close to their families, whether their families join the church or not. Mormons are encouraged to become active in their communities, engage in civic activities and excell in their chosen professions. In this context, the LDS church is nowhere close to a cult. So I guess it all depends on which definition you chose.

And for the record, I've spent extensive time researching your church. My uncle was a member for over 20 years before getting out, I dated a girl for 2.5 years that was a member of your church, and I spent a lot of time trying to study and understand your religion. I also have lived in an area that is almost 80% Mormon, and for three years I use to work in a company of 45 people, where I was one of only three people who were not Mormon. I've had many friends who were Mormons, and have heard many conversations concerning your religion. I'm not simply a "hater" out there that's just spouting off with no educational background on the subject.

From a social standpoint, I can understand why you may not like the LDS church. Any time someone lives among a group that they do not belong to, there tends to be a lot of animosity. Non-Jews who live in a predominantly Jewish area tend to not like Jews. Non-Catholics who live among a lot of Catholics. Ethic groups who live in areas of predominantly other ethinc groups tend not to like them as well. So the standpoint of where you are coming from us understandable. I assume you lived in Utah. For the record, even though I am a Mormon, I am not from Utah. I grew up in the northeast, but went to Utah for college. I loved it out there, but even I was a little uncomfortable with how predominant the church is. I am now back in the northeast. I came from a background where none of my friends from HS were Mormons, I was the only one in my school.

 

[NEDude]

Interesting you bring that up, below is a checklist you can use to help determine if a particular organization is a cult or not. The checklist is created by the ICSA, a well respected group that specialize in educating the public about social-pyscological influence and control, authoritarianism, and zeoltry in cultic groups.

See for yourself how many of these may apply in this situation:
[URL="http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm"]http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm[/URL]

Looked at the checklist. The ones you could check off for Mormons, you could check off for any popular mainstream church or religion. But most of them you cannot check.

 

[Raskal]

:nuts: Holy sh!t! All I wanted was the name of a couple of bars and maybe a golf course!!

I love you guys

 

[G100driver]

My favorite Mexican resturant in all the US is the Red Eguana just down the road from the airport on the way to town. Always a line, always worth the wait.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

:nuts: Holy sh!t! All I wanted was the name of a couple of bars and maybe a golf course!!

I love you guys

Settle down, Beavis. This is a message board, what do you think people are going to talk about when the threat is titled "things to do in MORMONland. :crying:



You should have titled it 'things to do in SLC'

SLC's great. I'm a history buff, and I find learning about the mormons very interesting, especially if you're right there. Even though I don't believe in alot of that mormon mumbojumbo, it's still interesting and the temple is awesome. SLC is just like any other city, except they do have some goofy alcohol laws, probably having something to do with the church. I know...makes no sense. You can skrew a different one of your wives on any given night, but the lawmakers regulate your drinking.

Regarding weird drinking laws, Oklahoma has that reduced alcohol beer $hit. I've never heard of anything like that before until I went drinking in Oklahoma, and I was my 6th beer and didn't have a buzz yet. WTF

 

[uncle_rico]

Settle down, Beavis. This is a message board, what do you think people are going to talk about when the threat is titled "things to do in MORMONland. :crying:



You should have titled it 'things to do in SLC'

SLC's great. I'm a history buff, and I find learning about the mormons very interesting, especially if you're right there. Even though I don't believe in alot of that mormon mumbojumbo, it's still interesting and the temple is awesome. SLC is just like any other city, except they do have some goofy alcohol laws, probably having something to do with the church. I know...makes no sense. You can skrew a different one of your wives on any given night, but the lawmakers regulate your drinking.

It's really a rare experience to come across someone so ignorant to the truth yet think they are such a fountain of knowledge. You have set a new standard in trash talking.
I wish you well....I'm done with this.....one word of caution, however. You are WAY off on what you think you know about the LDS church. Obviously you believe what you've been told, so I have to assume you try to be an honest person, but what you've been told is merely shades of truth twisted to sound ridiculous....which by the way....can be done with anything.
You say you "enjoy" learning about the mormons? Good...but your sources are way off....kinda like me going and asking Bin Laden to teach my kids about US history.

 

[414Flyer]

Well for the benefit of us non-LDS, then how about some of the LDS here tell us what some of those incorrect assertions are and what the corrections are, instead of just saying those websites are wrong without telling us what was wrong.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

It's really a rare experience to come across someone so ignorant to the truth yet think they are such a fountain of knowledge. You have set a new standard in trash talking.
I wish you well....I'm done with this.....one word of caution, however. You are WAY off on what you think you know about the LDS church. Obviously you believe what you've been told, so I have to assume you try to be an honest person, but what you've been told is merely shades of truth twisted to sound ridiculous....which by the way....can be done with anything.
You say you "enjoy" learning about the mormons? Good...but your sources are way off....kinda like me going and asking Bin Laden to teach my kids about US history.

Ok there Rico Suave.
First off, I'm not ignorant. 2nd, I've never once claimed to be a fountain of knowledge, nor have put down the mormon religion. Just because I'm opinionated and I voice my opinion, does not mean that I'm putting down the religion. I have been educated by mormons. My best friend is a mormon. I find the mormon religion interesting, even though don't believe in it. Just because a person chooses not to believe what mormons believe DOES NOT MAKE THEM IGNORANT. People in this country have a right to opinions. People in this country also have a right to express their opinions. Just because my opinion is different from yours or differs from what the mormons teach, does not mean that I'm ignorant of what you call the "truth". It's your opinion that you believe what mormons teach, and I respect that.

 

[justthewife]

Okay boys, that's enough. There's only one way to settle this. Casserole bake off, at the wardhouse, NOW!!!

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Im with Midnight Flyer on this one! You are 100% correct sir!

User998 and MF your guys are smart guys. Ill buy you guys a beer anytime.
I just got done watching that southpark episode on Mormons online, that was great!

Dear Mormons –

I don't mind hearing your views and rebuttals, but how about giving me some substance to go on here.

please respond to the following:

Are you interested in joining the Mormon church? Are you curious about it? Maybe you are taking or have taken the missionary lessons. Perhaps you even think that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a good Christian church that is family oriented and filled with godly people. If so, there are some things you need to know before you sign on the dotted line.
Mormonism is considered a non-Christian cult by all of Christianity. All you need to do is go to any Christian bookstore and look in the cult section. You will see books on Mormonism there. Now, are we "anti-Mormons" simply people who have a grudge against the LDS church? I can't speak for all who oppose Mormonism, but I have no grudge against it at all. I was never a Mormon and no Mormon injured me in the past. They are nice people. The problem isn't with them. It is with what they teach. It simply isn't Christian.
Mormon missionaries will tell you that there was an apostasy and that Joseph Smith was the one who restored the true gospel to this earth. This is a typical claim by every cult. Every one of them says that the present Christian church is false and that their initial leader restored the "truth." They have to invalidate present Christianity in order to get you to accept their brand of it.
Christianity teaches that there is only one God. Mormonism teaches that there are many gods. Christianity teaches you cannot become a god. Mormonism says you can. In fact, Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another planet who became a god and brought one of his wives with him to this world. In case you doubt this, check out the documentation below which is taken from Mormon writers.
Like all non-Christian cults, Mormonism uses the Bible to support its doctrines and does so improperly. For example, when the Bible says that there are no other gods besides God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8), Mormons quickly add "of this world." That means that there really are other gods out there and that the Bible is talking only about this world and not about others. They often quote 1 Cor. 8:5-6 which mentions the existence of other gods. But when doing this, they fail to read exactly what it says, that there are "so-called gods." In other words, they are called gods, but really are not gods. Paul was speaking about false gods, not the true and living God. Mormons frequently misrepresent scripture and take verses out of context to make it say what they want. Those who do not know what the Bible really teaches will easily be fooled by this cult.

Why is this important?
This is important because eternal salvation is at stake. God warned us to not serve false gods (Exodus 20), which are really not gods by nature (Gal. 4:8). He warned us to believe in the true Christ, not the false ones of the cults (Matt. 24:24). The god of Mormonism is false and cannot save you or anyone.
If you believe in a false god, you will be danged to eternal hell. Why, because ultimately, false gods do not exist except in the mind of the believer. In spite of being good, in spite of attending the Mormon church with its polished appearance, in spite of believing in Mormon doctrine about a man from another planet, you will go to hell if you believe in Mormon doctrine. It cannot save you from the righteous requirements that God requires. Only the true Jesus can save you from your sins. Not a god from another planet. Only the true God who alone is God in all the universe can save you.

Do you want to trust Mormon doctrine?
Following is a list of a few doctrines of Mormonism. Do you want to put your eternal trust in a church that teaches the following doctrines?

1. The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, p. 635. They teach there was an apostasy and the true church ceased to exist on earth.

There are many gods, Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.

God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.

1. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.

If you want further information, information that the Mormons won't tell you until you are very well entrenched in their cult, then read more of this site. It is full of information about why Mormonism is nothing more than a clever, false look-alike that cannot help you before God.

 

[Lollie]

I heard yo'r pole huggers have to wear pasties & thongs...not worth going to those bars haugh...

 

[uncle_rico]

Ok there Rico Suave.
First off, I'm not ignorant. 2nd, I've never once claimed to be a fountain of knowledge, nor have put down the mormon religion. Just because I'm opinionated and I voice my opinion, does not mean that I'm putting down the religion. I have been educated by mormons. My best friend is a mormon. I find the mormon religion interesting, even though don't believe in it. Just because a person chooses not to believe what mormons believe DOES NOT MAKE THEM IGNORANT. People in this country have a right to opinions. People in this country also have a right to express their opinions. Just because my opinion is different from yours or differs from what the mormons teach, does not mean that I'm ignorant of what you call the "truth". It's your opinion that you believe what mormons teach, and I respect that.

The problem I have with almost every post you have on this thread is that you are trying to "teach" what we as a church believe. The average reader will see what you post, and then, not knowing any different, walk away thinking what you have written is truth.

As I have said many times, what you say we believe is either out right wrong or, like 99% of all "anti-mormon" literature, will have some truth to it but be presented in such a way as to twist or misrepresent fact. Hence my use of the word ignorant....NOT stupid.

Of course you have rights to opinions, as you can see I'm full of them myself. I only get ruffled when you say you are not "putting down" the LDS church but every post of yours is trying to tell everyone how strange and off base we are.

If you know us as a religion so well you would know that one of our most basic beliefs is the right that EVERY man can worship who, where, or what they may. You will NEVER find a SINGLE scrap of official church produced material that tries to bash or disprove another religion.....ever.

If you or any other reader here wants to really discuss our beliefs, I would more than love to do so. PM me and I'll discuss anything you want. I will no longer respond here in this thread due to its obvious "mood".

Here is the OFFICIAL response to all this "mormons aren't christians" non-sense:


Question:
Are you Christians?

Answer:
Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:

"We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ."
"We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior...the dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life." "Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."

 

[G100driver]

You guys are:

sofa
king
re
Todd
Ed

Grow up. who gives a $hit!