They are selling like NOT cakes

[SkyGirl]

GV

I gotta ask how the Q was at fault when both pilots were pushing against the auto-pilot?

I think his point is that if a component (such as this "Q" thing) is not required or installed on your airplane, then it's impossible for you to mess it up. Anyway, that's what I got out of it.


_SkyGirl_

 

[G100driver]

GV

I gotta ask how the Q was at fault when both pilots were pushing against the auto-pilot?

Respectfully, I am all ears.

 

[GVFlyer]

GV

I gotta ask how the Q was at fault when both pilots were pushing against the auto-pilot?

Sure, in both cases the oscillations continued after the autopilot was disengaged.

The mishap could not have occured on a Gulfstream (as SkyGirl suggested), because there are no artificial feel systems required or installed on Gulfstream products. Futhermore, if I pull hard enough against the autopilot, it just decides that I really want to fly the airplane and simply disengages with no further consequences.

Here are the details:

On October 9, 1999 a Dassault Mystere Falcon 900B, operated by Amway Corp experienced a series of violent pitch oscillations, while the aircraft was in a steady descent, at 355 KIAS until about 10900 feet with the auto-pilot mode discrete indicating engage.

The Co-Pilot, who was the pilot flying, pulled back on the airplane control column to initiate the level off without disengaging the autopilot. At that point the aircraft pitch increased from about 2.75 degrees nose down to about 1.5 degrees aircraft nose up in one second with the auto-pilot still engaged. The aircraft then immediately pitched over to approximately 4 degrees nose down and the auto-pilot mode was no longer engaged. The pitch oscillations subsequently continued between about 3 degrees nose up and 4.5 degrees nose down. The aircraft load factor followed the aircraft pitch attitude and reached magnitudes between +3.3g and -1.2g.

The Co-Pilot reported that when he relaxed the back stick pressure on the control column, the airplane pitched nose down, a series of four pitch oscillations occurred, before the airplane was brought into control.

Following the preliminary report, D.G.A.C. - France issued on 17 November 1999 the A.D. no. 1999-464-029(B) which limits the airspeed to 260 KIAS or MI 0.76 in case of Arthur Q unit failure for Mystère Falcon 50, 900B and 900EX.



Here's the link to the rather detailed accident report for the Greek Falcon mishap.


The main purpose of the report was to find out what caused the aircraft pitch oscillations which led to death and injury of the passengers.The pitch oscillations began while the A/P was still engaged and continued after the A/P disengagement. It is was important to establish if these oscillations could have been induced by the A/P, why the A/P disengaged and why oscillations continued after A/P disengagement.


http://www.bea.aero/docspa/1999/sx-...ch="Final report accident Falcon 900B SX-ECH"


GV









.

 

[G100driver]

Thanks.

I still seems like both failures were a direct result of improper auto-pilot use. The question should be asked, would all these people had die if the crew was properly trained?

Kinda like saying gear-up accidents happen because the gear swings up.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Thanks.

I still seems like both failures were a direct result of improper auto-pilot use. The question should be asked, would all these people had die if the crew was properly trained?

Kinda like saying gear-up accidents happen because the gear swings up.

I think they all died because there was an unsecured, unapproved airline type beverage cart in the aisle that became a 400+lb pointy metal hammer when these guys decided to fight the autopilot......gotta love that!

I heard that thing looked like a slaughterhouse.

And yeah, artificial feel $ucks.

:smash:

 

[SCT]

"And yeah, artificial feel $ucks."

G200, I met a women in EGGB one night and came to the same conclusion.

SCT

 

[HMR]

Kinda like saying gear-up accidents happen because the gear swings up.

Ha! I was thinking that same analogy.

I could never understand why they were fighting the AP? I remember during FA50 initial someone mentioned one of the Greek captains had previously flown a 737(?) that allowed the pilot to override the AP with control inputs.
I don't know if that's true but every AP I've ever flown from a C172 to the Falcon will trim against control wheel inputs and result in a "confused" aircraft. If the Arthur Q is a bad design, improperly trained pilots making serious errors doesn't help.

 

[G100driver]

I think they all died because there was an unsecured, unapproved airline type beverage cart in the aisle that became a 400+lb pointy metal hammer when these guys decided to fight the autopilot......gotta love that!
:smash:

Yea that would leave a mark!uke:

 

[G100driver]

Ha! I was thinking that same analogy.

I could never understand why they were fighting the AP? I remember during FA50 initial someone mentioned one of the Greek captains had previously flown a 737(?) that allowed the pilot to override the AP with control inputs.
I don't know if that's true but every AP I've ever flown from a C172 to the Falcon will trim against control wheel inputs and result in a "confused" aircraft. If the Arthur Q is a bad design, improperly trained pilots making serious errors doesn't help.

In a previous aircraft I flew you could hold down the pitch synch. It would disconnect the A/P pitch while you pushed or pulled the yoke to a desired pitch attitude.

 

[AA717driver]

Airline-type auto pilots can be overridden with about 40lbs. of force. How much trim gets put in depends on how quickly you reach that force. TC

 

[falconpilot]

In a previous aircraft I flew you could hold down the pitch synch. It would disconnect the A/P pitch while you pushed or pulled the yoke to a desired pitch attitude.

I've flown a few planes like that.. Its called TCS (Touch Control Steering). I still think it was inproper autopilot use... Ive flown the aircraft with the "Q" stuck in the low speed mode... I would like to know what the checklist said before the A.D came out about the speed restriction... There is an "Arthur Q" anunciator light on the panel that illuminates when there is a disagreement between airspeed and the position of the Q. If it had failed the pilots should have known about it... And if the light was on.... And there was no procedure in the checklist at that time for it... Common sense should have taken over... Hmmm flight control problem.??? Maybe I shouldn't descend at 355 kts...

 

[HMR]

In a previous aircraft I flew you could hold down the pitch synch. It would disconnect the A/P pitch while you pushed or pulled the yoke to a desired pitch attitude.

I used to fly a piston twin with that feature. It worked great.

 

[gunfyter]

I really miss the TCS feature.

But then it took me a while before I did not miss having a Trim wheel until I learned to love TCS.

 

[TXDA2000]

The occilations continued because the PF had his hands on the yoke.