The Wright fight lives

[scoreboard]

If this were really a free market from the start, the US airline business would probably be two or three huge, worldwide conglomerates that were mega profitable. Kinda like the US cargo biz.

I agree, and I intend for one of those to be SWA.

Ciao, me go work.

 

[Flopgut]

Yeah, the low fares thing is bugging SWA employees too. Really!!

It helps SWA growth and is supposed to help keep labor in the box as the ROI stays less than optimal. Of course the fuel hedges are doing their thing. But it doesn't help the long run. I guess I would hate SWA too if I wasn't here.


Agreed. I hope it all balances out soon, but I'm thinking rolling fare wars will be the norm as Airtran flexes their muscles and JetBlue gets back to profitability. Oh, then there is Virgin USA, Spirit, Frontier and every other LCC that wants to expand. Americans love this turmoil.

"Hate" is too strong a word. There has to be room in the anti SWA spectrum between "Luver" and "hater" I am at least "good natured semi hater." Honestly, almost all my posts have been directed to be in sharp contrast with what SWA folks believe to suggest to you all that things can change and get bad, anywhere. Lets hope that doesn't happen, and try to keep it from happening. I don't know for sure what we can do about fares. But, as I think about this version of the free market for airlines I'm not too sure that we all have not been victemized. (yes, yes, I am abundantly clear that if being a "victem" at SWA right now means: huge money, cars, boats or whatever blah, blah, blah...)[for whoever was about to quote that]. Pilots careers over the last 30 years have become far too provisional. For this profession it is 4th and long, so to speak. Somebody needs to make a play. It doesn't matter if it is the QB, punter or waterboy or whoever. Somebody make a play. That is why I think it is not a misplaced thought that as pilots we could try to affect the equation. We have all certainly been there for the costs side of the equation! Even at SWA! Consider this: forget about casm/rasm as you traditionally would. The only thing you should be worrying about marketing right now is the those remaining fuel hedges. You should be extracting maximum dollars for every second the engines are running right now. You are only going to be so full and you can only taxi so fast, efficiency be danged! You need the dollars! If you compare what we have given as pilots compared to how the costs of tickets have dropped for customers, it is a travesty! Just cause you are at the top of the game now at SWA does not make it less so, it might just mean your next for the woodshed.

Airfares are the answer. They are long overdue to go up

 

[Flopgut]

Just how do we start a dialog on something we do not control? How are we giving away anything? Yousaid yourself we don't control it, how are WE giving it away? Raising airfares fixes everything? If that were true, why didn't it work for Delta, United, Northwest, TWA? Nothing operates in a vacuum. See your note above "Free Market" economy.

IMHO we have given away pensions as a norm for retirement. Certainly many of us have taken paycuts. I strongly believe that we in this business have delivered "employee pricing" the likes of GM for decades already. If you scale our pricing to automobiles, rational waved bye bye to this industry in 78. Additionally, I think age change to 65 is a huge giveaway. Many of us are all too happy to declare an age change a big potential victory. Not so fast: Lets recap: We work longer (at least 25% longer in most cases), for less money overall...OK, I'm not afraid of work. But when we take a glance at at the revenue side: Holy Moly! The price of airline tickets aren't even close to where they ought to be! Why are we knocking ourselves out so some moron can get transcon airline fares cheaper than cab fare in Manhattan! Take an inventory in your own life of what you are paying for crap these days. We are complete clowns.

Lets at least put the same effort in to trying to see through some pricing changes as we are into securing our right to work longer. Could that need be anymore abundantly clear?

 

[Benhuntn]

Flop

Go work for Air China everyone is equal by law. No need to try to be unique or improve youself. Your whinning is getting so old. enough said!

 

[chase]

The same could be said about the WA now in the context of it being created to help SWA launch, and now being lifted to when it suits your operation.

Flop,

Wonder what you meant by this statement? cheers

 

[Flopgut]

Flop

Go work for Air China everyone is equal by law. No need to try to be unique or improve youself. Your whinning is getting so old. enough said!

I don't know if you have been keeping score, but overall the endeavor of flying airplanes as a way of making a living is on the ropes. Now I know it is abundantly clear that you SWA types could care less about this business outside your own company but it might eventually come to visit you. I have been in multiple labor unions and have been able to see that there is an important component of all our professional lives when we are able to think not only about our own companies, but also as labor in general.

I was not in the military. I have very high regard for those of you that served and are serving. Let me respectfully remind you that it is not going to be good enough for just some of us to have our piece of the American dream. Each soldier deserves to come home and take their turn at a chance to have what you and I already have. Good career opportunities for our returning troops and everyone else is very much in doubt right now throughout the economy. SWA is not going to hire everyone of them, although you probably think so. The only thing I know to do is to try to talk about the "larger truth" type problems in this business and how we might be able to spur on an improvment for this trade in general. This place does help a little. See, I would like to see more people than just SWA folks have a good career, you want to tell people to move to China.

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

Wonder what you meant by this statement? cheers

Chase, you are always friendly, but I can tell this is an ambush. Facts are this:

In that context what I meant was: The WA precluded market forces. Yes, all carriers at Love were going to move to DFW upon completeion. When SWA stayed one airline made the strategic decision to stay and match SWA on every price and every leg. They were thrown off the airport and forced to stop competing with SWA, that is not a free market.

Now we have all already hashed this much out, I think I've said enough about it. Specifically, in the context you ask about, I'm saying that you are not going to pull that crap again. For instance, say you want to start some cargo flying, you aren't going to be able to get UPS thrown off ONT or get FEDEX tossed out of IND. For that matter, I don't think you will be able to do that sort of thing to any passenger carriers again or any municipalities. It literally screwed eveyone but you.

 

[Ralgha]

And then, lose our jobs entirely to someone like Ryanair who wants to operate a scheduled airline with free tickets.

Hey now that's a good idea. I could start an airline that offers entirely free tickets (no taxes or fees even). All the income would come from the pilots who would pay hundreds of thousands for the opprotunity to fly my airplanes for a couple months. That would be a more profitable business model than Southwest, at least in the current market.

 

[Benhuntn]

Flop read my post again...I never said move to China, just said work for them. It's state owned and operated. No competition, no need to worry about WA,unique products or costs. Just tell the pax to sit down shut up or they will be runover by a tank. You will not need a pension everything is provided for.

 

[OffHot]

Geeze give the guy a break, I have spared with flopgut over the Braniff, airline economics and the WA, I may not agree with him on all issues, but unlike many on this board he does truely care about this industry, not just his airline. I do agree with him that joe public is spoiled on the $59 ticket and have now become to price sensitive. However I don't believe its SWA, AirTran or JB is at fault. The over capacity in this industry is the primary player, the ole supply and demand curve thing. Now who's fault is that? I don't know. Flopgut keep it coming, debate is good for the soul. Personally, I have only one house and am grateful everyday that SWA is doing well and I only wish that the industry as a whole turns around soon.

 

[chase]

Chase, you are always friendly, but I can tell this is an ambush. Facts are this:

In that context what I meant was: The WA precluded market forces. Yes, all carriers (who signed the agreement to move to DFW when it was completed....SWA didn't sign that agreement, thus didn't have to move) at Love were going to move to DFW upon completeion. When SWA stayed one airline made the strategic decision to stay and match SWA on every price and every leg. They were thrown off the airport and forced to stop competing with SWA, that is not a free market. (I assume you're talking about Braniff....I wasn' aware they were thrown off the property...thanks for another piece of history....I'll re-read that portion for my own edification...however, I assume they were thrown off because the agreement they "signed" obligated them to follow on with their plan....let say though they would've been allowed to stay....what was their intent in staying at Love? was it to continue to give low fares to customers or was it to attempt to run SWA out of business? even if it was the later, that was fair....however it woudl appear from your comment they were forced to follow through with an agreemnt they had signed, kind of like a contract that companies sign with unions....no one the airline sign the agreement but again, it wasn't a totally free market system...that was wrong if in fact they weren't allowed to compete with SWA because of that fact....fact acknowledged....fast forward to now, are the restrictions still applicable? do they help the average customer get lower fares? Are the folks of N Texas helped or hurt by such a restriction? I wasn't trying to ambush you...just couldn't understand why you give the implication that SWA was "happy" with the WA or that it was designed to "benefit" SWA from the beginning....it wasn't....has it helped insulate SWA from other carriers who didn't want to put up with the WA restrictions? Absolutely but that wasn't our choice, that was the choice of other airlnes not to compete....now the time has come that SWA wishes to compete in a fair & open manner & some fo the same folks who "built the cage" to harness the animal, don't wish to allow it to come out of the cage for fear they've created an animal they can't tame....its tough when the hunter becomes the huntee but the reality of the market place is that this restriction has given other carriers a false sense of security in dealing with the passengers of N. Texas....assumed they couldn't be serviced better & more efficiently by someone else....that is obviously not the case. Whether the WA goes away in increments, over time or overnight, the inevitable march toward a free market system for the travelers of N. Texas will benefit the general public & bring reasonable fares to more folks....revisioinst history is a two way street....our respectful banner on both our views of it are fine in my opinion....however, the end result will be in my mind the aboltion of the WA & better air service to N. Texas....I would assume you think that if other parts of the country have the freedom to fly, that residents of N. Texas should have that same opportunity under the same unrestricted terms that 61 other populations centers do?

Now we have all already hashed this much out, I think I've said enough about it. Specifically, in the context you ask about, I'm saying that you are not going to pull that crap again. For instance, say you want to start some cargo flying, you aren't going to be able to get UPS thrown off ONT or get FEDEX tossed out of IND.You'll hear more from SWA on cargo in the future....we'll let everyone compete for that dollar....we are small fries when it comes to that market but we'll defintely be heard from in the future..... For that matter, I don't think you will be able to do that sort of thing to any passenger carriers again or any municipalities. It literally screwed eveyone but you.

Again I wasn't trying to set you up for an ambush....just wanted to clarify your statement....thanks again for the respectful reply & I know we are on different sides of the issue....my posts are more directed to the lurker who may not understand the history of the WA & why (IMHO) it needs to be abolished....we'll continue to disagree but that is OK my friend....cheers

 

[Flopgut]

Again I wasn't trying to set you up for an ambush....just wanted to clarify your statement....thanks again for the respectful reply & I know we are on different sides of the issue....my posts are more directed to the lurker who may not understand the history of the WA & why (IMHO) it needs to be abolished....we'll continue to disagree but that is OK my friend....cheers

OK. SWA is no less a party to the WA than Branniff was to the agreement that built DFW. But somehow, it is going to be OK to grant SWA relief from the agreement and to let Braniff dangle? Ouch. Check in to it a little, Herb had Braniff thrown off Love with a court order, not your proudest day.

So lets do fast forward a bit. I'm resigned to believe the WA is going to be repealed. What I think you should glean from this is that these sorts of lopsided victories might run out. (You look into the history of this whole deal and it hosed Fort Worth, no other municipality is going to get hoodwinked like that again) It is long overdue to examine fares, even for SWA (I know you are a little bit). There is no more low hanging fruit.

I think your regard for the traveling public is a little out of date. I'm not confused about good customer service, I have provided it my whole career. However, these days the customer is entitled to a safe, secure flight and that is about it! They are not paying enough. I don't care how much money SWA is making, you should be making 3 times that amount. Our clientel has degenerated into the most selfish and ignorant bunch of dregs anyone should be asked to deal with. A loyal customer these days is the one that doesn't slap a FA because their banana is half frozen! (Do you watch your show?) On top of that, the government has completely foresaken this industry. Less so for SWA to date but you might find yourselves in our shoes someday. Case in point: NWA has a bad day in DTW 10 years ago due to a blizzard. So congress enacts a law patterned after the bill of rights for airline customers. Our energy situation fell apart after a similiar wx event this last summer, so where is the energy users bill of rights? Its not like NWA took the opportunity in DTW to extract billions of dollars from their customers, they just tried to get through it and make it right. The energy companies have siezed upon this environment to visit a revenge on all of us for $20 a barrel oil of the past. Do you not see a glaring double standard here? This business has been groomed to provide the lowest airfares possible. Geopolitical events and artificial regulatory inputs have made airfare price metrics go lower than the price of food! The profession is suffering, we have all exceeded our mandate. Time to raise fares. Some airlines have performed well and some have not, but we have to heve our eye on a future sustainable point where the job still pays decent.

On another note: Thomas Friedman is partially wrong, the world is not flat. The world is uphill now for the American worker. We will all eventually lose to workers with socialized medicine. The UAW acknowledged as much in their report recently that said 90% of paycuts the automakers wanted from employees would be moot if you removed health care costs in some way.

Always a good debate with you, I do learn from it. Thanks.

Offhot: Thanks.

 

[scoreboard]

Check in to it a little, Herb had Braniff thrown off Love with a court order, not your proudest day.

Site the court order, give us a date, something to go on, what your saying is NOT TRUE! The courts upheld the agreement Braniff, NOT SWA made to move. We did not file the suit. Get the facts correct!!

They are not paying enough.

You keep bringing this up and i keep asking do you shop at Walmart or buy the higher priced car when a cheaper one is across the street at another dealer, you have not answered that one yet...

I don't care how much money SWA is making,

We do care, and we don't care how much you don't care.

you should be making 3 times that amount.

We would love to, but bankrupt airlines are keeping us down, not the other way around.

A loyal customer these days is the one that doesn't slap a FA because their banana is half frozen!

You have banana's?

(Do you watch your show?)

Nope, i live it.

On top of that, the government has completely foresaken this industry.

Remember your free market statement, whats good for the goose...

 

[Flopgut]

Site the court order, give us a date, something to go on, what your saying is NOT TRUE! The courts upheld the agreement Braniff, NOT SWA made to move. We did not file the suit. Get the facts correct!!




You keep bringing this up and i keep asking do you shop at Walmart or buy the higher priced car when a cheaper one is across the street at another dealer, you have not answered that one yet...


We do care, and we don't care how much you don't care.



We would love to, but bankrupt airlines are keeping us down, not the other way around.



You have banana's?



Nope, i live it.



Remember your free market statement, whats good for the goose...

Alright, I'll work on the court date stuff. I get a lot of my best info from first hand accounts. How about you go ask one of your Braniff guys how they remember it, or ask Herb. Ask them this: Do they remember the person hired away from SWA by Braniff in its final days.

I buy union. The only part of the ALPA mag I really look at each month is the boycott lists in the back. It usually does not impact me. I once had my hotel changed in SFO to not stay in a struck hotel. I drive UAW cars, I have had a used Honda and Honda ATVs. I shop at WalMart for a large number of things, they have put two other shopping options out of business within 17 miles. This is normal behavior for union workers I've been around, until I became an airline pilot. Too many non AFL-CIO pilot unions [clubs] unfortunately.

Yes we have bananas, along with cereal, milk and a muffin. One recent 10F morning the bananas were all half frozen. This seemed to be sufficient hardship for our lovely flying public that one FA about got attacked. Of course at the amounts they are paying for tickets they of course should have flawless meal service, NOT! Just last night on a transcon we had a guy in first who ate two first class chicken meals with red wine, had two sundaes and then drank six diet cokes (whole cans) then got off the plane and told us that our seats suck, the movie sucked, and that we suck. What an a$$. I have no idea who this gut was, but I'm 100% certain my airline product at the price we are at, is better than whatever endeavor that guy does for a living.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Ask them this: Do they remember the person hired away from SWA by Braniff in its final days.

Yup....Howard Putnam....came from United Airlines after the SWA CEO, Lamar Muse left in a falling out with the BOD. Putnam became the President and CEO from 1978-1981. He left to take the CEO position at Braniff. Still lives in the DFW area and flies SWA on a regularly.

In 1981, Herb was elected to the CEO position by the SWA BOD.

Tejas

 

[Flopgut]

Yup....Howard Putnam....came from United Airlines after the SWA CEO, Lamar Muse left in a falling out with the BOD. Putnam became the President and CEO from 1978-1981. He left to take the CEO position at Braniff. Still lives in the DFW area and flies SWA on a regularly.

In 1981, Herb was elected to the CEO position by the SWA BOD.

Tejas

Some former Braniff I talk to say he was there to poison the well, or at least be a deliberate non-performer on behalf of SWA.

This is something I'm less inclined to believe than the rest of what I hear. I'm curious what people might say about it to you guys.

 

[Flopgut]

Just last night on a transcon we had a guy in first who ate two first class chicken meals with red wine, had two sundaes and then drank six diet cokes (whole cans) then got off the plane and told us that our seats suck, the movie sucked, and that we suck. What an a$$. I have no idea who this gut was, but I'm 100% certain my airline product at the price we are at, is better than whatever endeavor that guy does for a living.

You know, I just re-read this and I think I need to go back and check the passenger list...this was probably just one of our captains commuting home!

 

[scoreboard]

Flop, so it's settled, you buy at the place that gives you the best value, ie, our market economy working as it should. Thats what the public is doing now, shopping for the best airfare deals, just like you, and you say they don't deserve it? Sour grapes my friend.

The market is priced as it is because of factors beyond alot of folks control. You keep harping we need to raise prices. If we raise prices, we loose market share/profits, we are not going to do that. We have and will slowly eek up a ticket price here and there, but that takes a year or two to become substantial. It's insane to think any airline would underprice thier own cost structure, what do you get? Bankruptcy. Not my fault. Not anyones except those who control the companies in question.

Off topic: Health care, BMW pays $450 per year per employee for health care, Toyota $190, GM $1,800, Ford $1,500. Whats wrong with that picture? So now we should hate the doctors, not. I sure like the guy who graduated cumma suma whatever checking me out, sts.

Frozen bananas? Too funny, make daiquiri's!!

They hired Putnam, or Casey did, to help pull Braniff out of trouble. Casey was former American. Now, do you really think Casey hired Putnam, then let him run amok and doom Branniff? Hardly, the failure of Braniff was set in stone long before Putnam set foot on property. If anything, Casey is to blame (former AA), you do the math.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Hardly, the failure of Braniff was set in stone long before Putnam set foot on property. If anything, Casey is to blame (former AA), you do the math.

Oh yeah....Harding Lawrence the Braniff CEO when Deregulation came to be in 1978, actually believed that the US Government would rescind the Deregulation law after they realized they had made a mistake.

Braniff, under Harding's direction went out and embarked on a massive expansion of routes and bought lots of new airplanes at high interest rates, so that they would have that all important "critical mass" when the Deregulation law went away. 34 passengers on a 747 flying LAX-GUM wasn't gonna pay any bills, but Lawrence had the routes he wanted. Then the economy took a nose dive, Lawrence had to borrow to keep operations going....and Deregulation never did go away

BTW....didn't Al Casey actually have a brother in management at AA?

Tejas

 

[Dave Siegel]

Flop, so it's settled, you buy at the place that gives you the best value, ie, our market economy working as it should. Thats what the public is doing now, shopping for the best airfare deals, just like you, and you say they don't deserve it? Sour grapes my friend.

The market is priced as it is because of factors beyond alot of folks control. You keep harping we need to raise prices. If we raise prices, we loose market share/profits, we are not going to do that. We have and will slowly eek up a ticket price here and there, but that takes a year or two to become substantial. It's insane to think any airline would underprice thier own cost structure, what do you get? Bankruptcy. Not my fault. Not anyones except those who control the companies in question.

Hi, it's Dave! It is not surprising at all that Southwest pilots have a deeper insight into the economics of the industry than everyone else. That is why you begin with outstanding management, and the rest naturally falls into place. That is why Southwest will continue to be the best airline. Their employees know and acknowledge that management is indeed smarter and superior to them, and that only through strong management will an airline achieve long term success.

That is why American Airlines will never measure up. If you keep replacing the Captain of your ship, eventually you'll hit an iceberg.