The Wright fight lives

[Flopgut]

FBJ: Right, I get it. You have your head on straight. You can pick the best deal at the best company only to have the fundamentals completely change. As soon as you think your in the clear someone comes along and "gores your ox" and your toast. I know we can't do too much on our own as workers, but we should start a dialog on airfares. They are too low; we are ALL giving away too much. Raising airfares fixes everything, and always will.

Low hanging fruit is going to run out for SWA (the WA for instance). Your going to have to adapt and innovate. I'm comfortable enough to go ahead and attempt dialog while your top dog. Go ahead and stay at the top and lets discuss how to get these fares up (and do so, by the way, in a manner that uniquely serves the interests of the pilots!). Lets not wait til your costs go up and mine come down and we beat the crap out of each other til we have no 401k or B plan, no health insurance, and we fly for beans til we die! And then, lose our jobs entirely to someone like Ryanair who wants to operate a scheduled airline with free tickets.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Yeah, the low fares thing is bugging SWA employees too. Really!!

It helps SWA growth and is supposed to help keep labor in the box as the ROI stays less than optimal. Of course the fuel hedges are doing their thing. But it doesn't help the long run. I guess I would hate SWA too if I wasn't here.


Agreed. I hope it all balances out soon, but I'm thinking rolling fare wars will be the norm as Airtran flexes their muscles and JetBlue gets back to profitability. Oh, then there is Virgin USA, Spirit, Frontier and every other LCC that wants to expand. Americans love this turmoil.

 

[scoreboard]

Subjected them to the free market.

Flop, please remember what YOU say, please. Are you saying a free market is good? Sounds like it, yet, you set yourself up as hypocritcal and self serving with this ...

The idea I would like to further here is that the consumer is not deservant of what this business is doling out. Go to any other industry and ask for the sort of sweeping discount we are handing over and you'll have the door slammed in your face.

I'll answer this. GM and any car manufacture that sells at "Employee discount". Is that bad? I bet it's keeping them afloat. Do the customers deserve it? Read your "Free Market" comment.

I know we can't do too much on our own as workers, but we should start a dialog on airfares. They are too low; we are ALL giving away too much. Raising airfares fixes everything, and always will.

Just how do we start a dialog on something we do not control? How are we giving away anything? Yousaid yourself we don't control it, how are WE giving it away? Raising airfares fixes everything? If that were true, why didn't it work for Delta, United, Northwest, TWA? Nothing operates in a vacuum. See your note above "Free Market" economy.

 

[apdsm]

RE: Legend's demise

Subjected them to the free market.

I would like to nominate Flogput's statement for the 6FICMISYA!
(2006 FLIGHTINFO.COM MOST INACCURATE STATEMENT OF THE YEAR AWARD)

 

[Flopgut]

Score: I hear what you're saying. Free markets. There was an absence of a truly free market when Braniff got tossed out of Love. I know that is a delicate issue since you work for SWA. Think of it this way: There was an absence of a free market when UAL was not allowed to buy AWA and USAir. There is an absence of free market forces when code share agreements with Air France were recently squelched for NWA. The same could be said about the WA now in the context of it being created to help SWA launch, and now being lifted to when it suits your operation. Both instances artificially forced through poitically and a double whammy for everyone but SWA. (it is creepy when you hear a politician say "you folks come to a compromise or we'll hand you one", the WA IS the compromise! They are going to give what ever you want and they don't care who it screws!) Those sorts of negative aspects of our supposd free market system for airlines has created a terribly out of balance situation. If there were a true, free market in place from the start the US airline business that would be one thing. But there has not. It seems the whole situation has been orchestrated to make sure people get the cheapest airfares possible. Markets have been directed singuliarly to make the fares plummet, and they have.

If this were really a free market from the start, the US airline business would probably be two or three huge, worldwide conglomerates that were mega profitable. Kinda like the US cargo biz. To bad for all of us we are missing out on that.

I have to go for now.

 

[scoreboard]

If this were really a free market from the start, the US airline business would probably be two or three huge, worldwide conglomerates that were mega profitable. Kinda like the US cargo biz.

I agree, and I intend for one of those to be SWA.

Ciao, me go work.

 

[Flopgut]

Yeah, the low fares thing is bugging SWA employees too. Really!!

It helps SWA growth and is supposed to help keep labor in the box as the ROI stays less than optimal. Of course the fuel hedges are doing their thing. But it doesn't help the long run. I guess I would hate SWA too if I wasn't here.


Agreed. I hope it all balances out soon, but I'm thinking rolling fare wars will be the norm as Airtran flexes their muscles and JetBlue gets back to profitability. Oh, then there is Virgin USA, Spirit, Frontier and every other LCC that wants to expand. Americans love this turmoil.

"Hate" is too strong a word. There has to be room in the anti SWA spectrum between "Luver" and "hater" I am at least "good natured semi hater." Honestly, almost all my posts have been directed to be in sharp contrast with what SWA folks believe to suggest to you all that things can change and get bad, anywhere. Lets hope that doesn't happen, and try to keep it from happening. I don't know for sure what we can do about fares. But, as I think about this version of the free market for airlines I'm not too sure that we all have not been victemized. (yes, yes, I am abundantly clear that if being a "victem" at SWA right now means: huge money, cars, boats or whatever blah, blah, blah...)[for whoever was about to quote that]. Pilots careers over the last 30 years have become far too provisional. For this profession it is 4th and long, so to speak. Somebody needs to make a play. It doesn't matter if it is the QB, punter or waterboy or whoever. Somebody make a play. That is why I think it is not a misplaced thought that as pilots we could try to affect the equation. We have all certainly been there for the costs side of the equation! Even at SWA! Consider this: forget about casm/rasm as you traditionally would. The only thing you should be worrying about marketing right now is the those remaining fuel hedges. You should be extracting maximum dollars for every second the engines are running right now. You are only going to be so full and you can only taxi so fast, efficiency be danged! You need the dollars! If you compare what we have given as pilots compared to how the costs of tickets have dropped for customers, it is a travesty! Just cause you are at the top of the game now at SWA does not make it less so, it might just mean your next for the woodshed.

Airfares are the answer. They are long overdue to go up

 

[Flopgut]

Just how do we start a dialog on something we do not control? How are we giving away anything? Yousaid yourself we don't control it, how are WE giving it away? Raising airfares fixes everything? If that were true, why didn't it work for Delta, United, Northwest, TWA? Nothing operates in a vacuum. See your note above "Free Market" economy.

IMHO we have given away pensions as a norm for retirement. Certainly many of us have taken paycuts. I strongly believe that we in this business have delivered "employee pricing" the likes of GM for decades already. If you scale our pricing to automobiles, rational waved bye bye to this industry in 78. Additionally, I think age change to 65 is a huge giveaway. Many of us are all too happy to declare an age change a big potential victory. Not so fast: Lets recap: We work longer (at least 25% longer in most cases), for less money overall...OK, I'm not afraid of work. But when we take a glance at at the revenue side: Holy Moly! The price of airline tickets aren't even close to where they ought to be! Why are we knocking ourselves out so some moron can get transcon airline fares cheaper than cab fare in Manhattan! Take an inventory in your own life of what you are paying for crap these days. We are complete clowns.

Lets at least put the same effort in to trying to see through some pricing changes as we are into securing our right to work longer. Could that need be anymore abundantly clear?

 

[Benhuntn]

Flop

Go work for Air China everyone is equal by law. No need to try to be unique or improve youself. Your whinning is getting so old. enough said!

 

[chase]

The same could be said about the WA now in the context of it being created to help SWA launch, and now being lifted to when it suits your operation.

Flop,

Wonder what you meant by this statement? cheers

 

[Flopgut]

Flop

Go work for Air China everyone is equal by law. No need to try to be unique or improve youself. Your whinning is getting so old. enough said!

I don't know if you have been keeping score, but overall the endeavor of flying airplanes as a way of making a living is on the ropes. Now I know it is abundantly clear that you SWA types could care less about this business outside your own company but it might eventually come to visit you. I have been in multiple labor unions and have been able to see that there is an important component of all our professional lives when we are able to think not only about our own companies, but also as labor in general.

I was not in the military. I have very high regard for those of you that served and are serving. Let me respectfully remind you that it is not going to be good enough for just some of us to have our piece of the American dream. Each soldier deserves to come home and take their turn at a chance to have what you and I already have. Good career opportunities for our returning troops and everyone else is very much in doubt right now throughout the economy. SWA is not going to hire everyone of them, although you probably think so. The only thing I know to do is to try to talk about the "larger truth" type problems in this business and how we might be able to spur on an improvment for this trade in general. This place does help a little. See, I would like to see more people than just SWA folks have a good career, you want to tell people to move to China.

 

[Flopgut]

Flop,

Wonder what you meant by this statement? cheers

Chase, you are always friendly, but I can tell this is an ambush. Facts are this:

In that context what I meant was: The WA precluded market forces. Yes, all carriers at Love were going to move to DFW upon completeion. When SWA stayed one airline made the strategic decision to stay and match SWA on every price and every leg. They were thrown off the airport and forced to stop competing with SWA, that is not a free market.

Now we have all already hashed this much out, I think I've said enough about it. Specifically, in the context you ask about, I'm saying that you are not going to pull that crap again. For instance, say you want to start some cargo flying, you aren't going to be able to get UPS thrown off ONT or get FEDEX tossed out of IND. For that matter, I don't think you will be able to do that sort of thing to any passenger carriers again or any municipalities. It literally screwed eveyone but you.

 

[Ralgha]

And then, lose our jobs entirely to someone like Ryanair who wants to operate a scheduled airline with free tickets.

Hey now that's a good idea. I could start an airline that offers entirely free tickets (no taxes or fees even). All the income would come from the pilots who would pay hundreds of thousands for the opprotunity to fly my airplanes for a couple months. That would be a more profitable business model than Southwest, at least in the current market.

 

[Benhuntn]

Flop read my post again...I never said move to China, just said work for them. It's state owned and operated. No competition, no need to worry about WA,unique products or costs. Just tell the pax to sit down shut up or they will be runover by a tank. You will not need a pension everything is provided for.

 

[OffHot]

Geeze give the guy a break, I have spared with flopgut over the Braniff, airline economics and the WA, I may not agree with him on all issues, but unlike many on this board he does truely care about this industry, not just his airline. I do agree with him that joe public is spoiled on the $59 ticket and have now become to price sensitive. However I don't believe its SWA, AirTran or JB is at fault. The over capacity in this industry is the primary player, the ole supply and demand curve thing. Now who's fault is that? I don't know. Flopgut keep it coming, debate is good for the soul. Personally, I have only one house and am grateful everyday that SWA is doing well and I only wish that the industry as a whole turns around soon.