The Wright fight lives

[chase]

Chase, you are always friendly, but I can tell this is an ambush. Facts are this:

In that context what I meant was: The WA precluded market forces. Yes, all carriers (who signed the agreement to move to DFW when it was completed....SWA didn't sign that agreement, thus didn't have to move) at Love were going to move to DFW upon completeion. When SWA stayed one airline made the strategic decision to stay and match SWA on every price and every leg. They were thrown off the airport and forced to stop competing with SWA, that is not a free market. (I assume you're talking about Braniff....I wasn' aware they were thrown off the property...thanks for another piece of history....I'll re-read that portion for my own edification...however, I assume they were thrown off because the agreement they "signed" obligated them to follow on with their plan....let say though they would've been allowed to stay....what was their intent in staying at Love? was it to continue to give low fares to customers or was it to attempt to run SWA out of business? even if it was the later, that was fair....however it woudl appear from your comment they were forced to follow through with an agreemnt they had signed, kind of like a contract that companies sign with unions....no one the airline sign the agreement but again, it wasn't a totally free market system...that was wrong if in fact they weren't allowed to compete with SWA because of that fact....fact acknowledged....fast forward to now, are the restrictions still applicable? do they help the average customer get lower fares? Are the folks of N Texas helped or hurt by such a restriction? I wasn't trying to ambush you...just couldn't understand why you give the implication that SWA was "happy" with the WA or that it was designed to "benefit" SWA from the beginning....it wasn't....has it helped insulate SWA from other carriers who didn't want to put up with the WA restrictions? Absolutely but that wasn't our choice, that was the choice of other airlnes not to compete....now the time has come that SWA wishes to compete in a fair & open manner & some fo the same folks who "built the cage" to harness the animal, don't wish to allow it to come out of the cage for fear they've created an animal they can't tame....its tough when the hunter becomes the huntee but the reality of the market place is that this restriction has given other carriers a false sense of security in dealing with the passengers of N. Texas....assumed they couldn't be serviced better & more efficiently by someone else....that is obviously not the case. Whether the WA goes away in increments, over time or overnight, the inevitable march toward a free market system for the travelers of N. Texas will benefit the general public & bring reasonable fares to more folks....revisioinst history is a two way street....our respectful banner on both our views of it are fine in my opinion....however, the end result will be in my mind the aboltion of the WA & better air service to N. Texas....I would assume you think that if other parts of the country have the freedom to fly, that residents of N. Texas should have that same opportunity under the same unrestricted terms that 61 other populations centers do?

Now we have all already hashed this much out, I think I've said enough about it. Specifically, in the context you ask about, I'm saying that you are not going to pull that crap again. For instance, say you want to start some cargo flying, you aren't going to be able to get UPS thrown off ONT or get FEDEX tossed out of IND.You'll hear more from SWA on cargo in the future....we'll let everyone compete for that dollar....we are small fries when it comes to that market but we'll defintely be heard from in the future..... For that matter, I don't think you will be able to do that sort of thing to any passenger carriers again or any municipalities. It literally screwed eveyone but you.

Again I wasn't trying to set you up for an ambush....just wanted to clarify your statement....thanks again for the respectful reply & I know we are on different sides of the issue....my posts are more directed to the lurker who may not understand the history of the WA & why (IMHO) it needs to be abolished....we'll continue to disagree but that is OK my friend....cheers

 

[Flopgut]

Again I wasn't trying to set you up for an ambush....just wanted to clarify your statement....thanks again for the respectful reply & I know we are on different sides of the issue....my posts are more directed to the lurker who may not understand the history of the WA & why (IMHO) it needs to be abolished....we'll continue to disagree but that is OK my friend....cheers

OK. SWA is no less a party to the WA than Branniff was to the agreement that built DFW. But somehow, it is going to be OK to grant SWA relief from the agreement and to let Braniff dangle? Ouch. Check in to it a little, Herb had Braniff thrown off Love with a court order, not your proudest day.

So lets do fast forward a bit. I'm resigned to believe the WA is going to be repealed. What I think you should glean from this is that these sorts of lopsided victories might run out. (You look into the history of this whole deal and it hosed Fort Worth, no other municipality is going to get hoodwinked like that again) It is long overdue to examine fares, even for SWA (I know you are a little bit). There is no more low hanging fruit.

I think your regard for the traveling public is a little out of date. I'm not confused about good customer service, I have provided it my whole career. However, these days the customer is entitled to a safe, secure flight and that is about it! They are not paying enough. I don't care how much money SWA is making, you should be making 3 times that amount. Our clientel has degenerated into the most selfish and ignorant bunch of dregs anyone should be asked to deal with. A loyal customer these days is the one that doesn't slap a FA because their banana is half frozen! (Do you watch your show?) On top of that, the government has completely foresaken this industry. Less so for SWA to date but you might find yourselves in our shoes someday. Case in point: NWA has a bad day in DTW 10 years ago due to a blizzard. So congress enacts a law patterned after the bill of rights for airline customers. Our energy situation fell apart after a similiar wx event this last summer, so where is the energy users bill of rights? Its not like NWA took the opportunity in DTW to extract billions of dollars from their customers, they just tried to get through it and make it right. The energy companies have siezed upon this environment to visit a revenge on all of us for $20 a barrel oil of the past. Do you not see a glaring double standard here? This business has been groomed to provide the lowest airfares possible. Geopolitical events and artificial regulatory inputs have made airfare price metrics go lower than the price of food! The profession is suffering, we have all exceeded our mandate. Time to raise fares. Some airlines have performed well and some have not, but we have to heve our eye on a future sustainable point where the job still pays decent.

On another note: Thomas Friedman is partially wrong, the world is not flat. The world is uphill now for the American worker. We will all eventually lose to workers with socialized medicine. The UAW acknowledged as much in their report recently that said 90% of paycuts the automakers wanted from employees would be moot if you removed health care costs in some way.

Always a good debate with you, I do learn from it. Thanks.

Offhot: Thanks.

 

[scoreboard]

Check in to it a little, Herb had Braniff thrown off Love with a court order, not your proudest day.

Site the court order, give us a date, something to go on, what your saying is NOT TRUE! The courts upheld the agreement Braniff, NOT SWA made to move. We did not file the suit. Get the facts correct!!

They are not paying enough.

You keep bringing this up and i keep asking do you shop at Walmart or buy the higher priced car when a cheaper one is across the street at another dealer, you have not answered that one yet...

I don't care how much money SWA is making,

We do care, and we don't care how much you don't care.

you should be making 3 times that amount.

We would love to, but bankrupt airlines are keeping us down, not the other way around.

A loyal customer these days is the one that doesn't slap a FA because their banana is half frozen!

You have banana's?

(Do you watch your show?)

Nope, i live it.

On top of that, the government has completely foresaken this industry.

Remember your free market statement, whats good for the goose...

 

[Flopgut]

Site the court order, give us a date, something to go on, what your saying is NOT TRUE! The courts upheld the agreement Braniff, NOT SWA made to move. We did not file the suit. Get the facts correct!!




You keep bringing this up and i keep asking do you shop at Walmart or buy the higher priced car when a cheaper one is across the street at another dealer, you have not answered that one yet...


We do care, and we don't care how much you don't care.



We would love to, but bankrupt airlines are keeping us down, not the other way around.



You have banana's?



Nope, i live it.



Remember your free market statement, whats good for the goose...

Alright, I'll work on the court date stuff. I get a lot of my best info from first hand accounts. How about you go ask one of your Braniff guys how they remember it, or ask Herb. Ask them this: Do they remember the person hired away from SWA by Braniff in its final days.

I buy union. The only part of the ALPA mag I really look at each month is the boycott lists in the back. It usually does not impact me. I once had my hotel changed in SFO to not stay in a struck hotel. I drive UAW cars, I have had a used Honda and Honda ATVs. I shop at WalMart for a large number of things, they have put two other shopping options out of business within 17 miles. This is normal behavior for union workers I've been around, until I became an airline pilot. Too many non AFL-CIO pilot unions [clubs] unfortunately.

Yes we have bananas, along with cereal, milk and a muffin. One recent 10F morning the bananas were all half frozen. This seemed to be sufficient hardship for our lovely flying public that one FA about got attacked. Of course at the amounts they are paying for tickets they of course should have flawless meal service, NOT! Just last night on a transcon we had a guy in first who ate two first class chicken meals with red wine, had two sundaes and then drank six diet cokes (whole cans) then got off the plane and told us that our seats suck, the movie sucked, and that we suck. What an a$$. I have no idea who this gut was, but I'm 100% certain my airline product at the price we are at, is better than whatever endeavor that guy does for a living.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Ask them this: Do they remember the person hired away from SWA by Braniff in its final days.

Yup....Howard Putnam....came from United Airlines after the SWA CEO, Lamar Muse left in a falling out with the BOD. Putnam became the President and CEO from 1978-1981. He left to take the CEO position at Braniff. Still lives in the DFW area and flies SWA on a regularly.

In 1981, Herb was elected to the CEO position by the SWA BOD.

Tejas

 

[Flopgut]

Yup....Howard Putnam....came from United Airlines after the SWA CEO, Lamar Muse left in a falling out with the BOD. Putnam became the President and CEO from 1978-1981. He left to take the CEO position at Braniff. Still lives in the DFW area and flies SWA on a regularly.

In 1981, Herb was elected to the CEO position by the SWA BOD.

Tejas

Some former Braniff I talk to say he was there to poison the well, or at least be a deliberate non-performer on behalf of SWA.

This is something I'm less inclined to believe than the rest of what I hear. I'm curious what people might say about it to you guys.

 

[Flopgut]

Just last night on a transcon we had a guy in first who ate two first class chicken meals with red wine, had two sundaes and then drank six diet cokes (whole cans) then got off the plane and told us that our seats suck, the movie sucked, and that we suck. What an a$$. I have no idea who this gut was, but I'm 100% certain my airline product at the price we are at, is better than whatever endeavor that guy does for a living.

You know, I just re-read this and I think I need to go back and check the passenger list...this was probably just one of our captains commuting home!

 

[scoreboard]

Flop, so it's settled, you buy at the place that gives you the best value, ie, our market economy working as it should. Thats what the public is doing now, shopping for the best airfare deals, just like you, and you say they don't deserve it? Sour grapes my friend.

The market is priced as it is because of factors beyond alot of folks control. You keep harping we need to raise prices. If we raise prices, we loose market share/profits, we are not going to do that. We have and will slowly eek up a ticket price here and there, but that takes a year or two to become substantial. It's insane to think any airline would underprice thier own cost structure, what do you get? Bankruptcy. Not my fault. Not anyones except those who control the companies in question.

Off topic: Health care, BMW pays $450 per year per employee for health care, Toyota $190, GM $1,800, Ford $1,500. Whats wrong with that picture? So now we should hate the doctors, not. I sure like the guy who graduated cumma suma whatever checking me out, sts.

Frozen bananas? Too funny, make daiquiri's!!

They hired Putnam, or Casey did, to help pull Braniff out of trouble. Casey was former American. Now, do you really think Casey hired Putnam, then let him run amok and doom Branniff? Hardly, the failure of Braniff was set in stone long before Putnam set foot on property. If anything, Casey is to blame (former AA), you do the math.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Hardly, the failure of Braniff was set in stone long before Putnam set foot on property. If anything, Casey is to blame (former AA), you do the math.

Oh yeah....Harding Lawrence the Braniff CEO when Deregulation came to be in 1978, actually believed that the US Government would rescind the Deregulation law after they realized they had made a mistake.

Braniff, under Harding's direction went out and embarked on a massive expansion of routes and bought lots of new airplanes at high interest rates, so that they would have that all important "critical mass" when the Deregulation law went away. 34 passengers on a 747 flying LAX-GUM wasn't gonna pay any bills, but Lawrence had the routes he wanted. Then the economy took a nose dive, Lawrence had to borrow to keep operations going....and Deregulation never did go away

BTW....didn't Al Casey actually have a brother in management at AA?

Tejas

 

[Dave Siegel]

Flop, so it's settled, you buy at the place that gives you the best value, ie, our market economy working as it should. Thats what the public is doing now, shopping for the best airfare deals, just like you, and you say they don't deserve it? Sour grapes my friend.

The market is priced as it is because of factors beyond alot of folks control. You keep harping we need to raise prices. If we raise prices, we loose market share/profits, we are not going to do that. We have and will slowly eek up a ticket price here and there, but that takes a year or two to become substantial. It's insane to think any airline would underprice thier own cost structure, what do you get? Bankruptcy. Not my fault. Not anyones except those who control the companies in question.

Hi, it's Dave! It is not surprising at all that Southwest pilots have a deeper insight into the economics of the industry than everyone else. That is why you begin with outstanding management, and the rest naturally falls into place. That is why Southwest will continue to be the best airline. Their employees know and acknowledge that management is indeed smarter and superior to them, and that only through strong management will an airline achieve long term success.

That is why American Airlines will never measure up. If you keep replacing the Captain of your ship, eventually you'll hit an iceberg.