The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[pkober]

It's tough being an alpa apologist.....

alpa can't reform itself and be more responsive to it's problems and weaknesses because it has no will to challenge the senior people at each airline, who use their leverage at the bargaining table to benefit themselves at the expense of the strength of the association.
Thus, no reform on national seniority, no end to oursourcing and second-class careers, no end to whipsawing by mgmt. Mgmt. has played us like a old drum for too long...

The national president could force reform simply by refusing to sign contracts with these provisions.
Or, the national board, made up of reps., could pass resolutions changing alpa's constitution and by-laws.
But, who controls the board? The reps with the most constituents(majors/legacies) and the least inclination to embrace change, and whose constituents benefit from the status quo. We need to heal ourselves, first.

Our elected officers in Herndon need to stop working for the alpa staff lawyers and communications people(the message wagging the dog?) and start fighting for our jobs and careers. At present, ask any officer of the association what is first duty is to, and the true answer will be to the association and it's fiscal position, not to the status of our jobs or the profession.

The only thing about alpa and our contracts that survived intact this decade was.... the major contingincy fund. It's like a b2 bomber, left in the hanger and never used. They piddle out stipends to mec's in negotiations for strike preparedness, but will never use it to actually fight for us.
We use the funds to actually facilitate our roll-over/bend-over with management.....

My 1.9% worth, fraternally

Get ready to be told to "get involved" by those who like to beat their chests and yell from the mountain tops how involved they are.

BTW, B2's deploy all over the world. I would compare it more to the guys who get hired so that they can work at ALPA and never have to fly again.

 

[Flopgut]

ALPA furloughed staffers today...

It is what you wanted isn't?

What is interesting is that you obviously believe ALPA furloughing is worse than an ALPA member being furloughed.

We don't fly planes so ALPA can exist. We're the customer. Of my many, and most recent, interaction(s) with ALPA National I can say beyond any doubt: They're sure powered human flight only took place so there could be ALPA.

I don't like anybody getting furloughed. However, if you alienate, p!ssoff, overcharge or otherwise treat your customers like sh!t, you're not far from being furloughed.

All ALPA has to do is rededicate themselves to their customers and look for ways to better serve them and furloughs will end. (Which is the same thing any going concern has to do) But they won't.

 

[PCL_128]

The national president could force reform simply by refusing to sign contracts with these provisions.

I've always said the same thing, and it's the only criticism I had for Duane, but most ALPA Presidents don't feel comfortable telling the majority of a pilot group that they aren't allowed to have what they've voted in favor of. It's a tough call.

But, who controls the board? The reps with the most constituents(majors/legacies) and the least inclination to embrace change, and whose constituents benefit from the status quo. We need to heal ourselves, first.

This is no longer correct. When AAA/AWA left, the balance of power shifted within the Association. It's been leaning that direction for a while, but the departure of those two MECs finished it up. The B-carriers now have a majority within the Association and have the power on the BOD. They've always had the majority on the EB. The only question is whether the B-carrier MECs are smart enough to band together and work as a team like the legacy MECs always have, or if they'll act like a bunch of children and bicker with each other. They have an opportunity to effect some real change if they are smart about it.

At present, ask any officer of the association what is first duty is to, and the true answer will be to the association and it's fiscal position, not to the status of our jobs or the profession.

You'll have a hard time finding any rep that would say that, including the National officers. Their answer would always be, first and foremost, the profession.

The only thing about alpa and our contracts that survived intact this decade was.... the major contingincy fund. It's like a b2 bomber, left in the hanger and never used. They piddle out stipends to mec's in negotiations for strike preparedness, but will never use it to actually fight for us.

There is a strong resistance to using the MCF for anything other than its original intention, which was SPC/strike events. That's what the fund was always intended for, and old habits die hard. I advocated for transferring $10 million from the MCF to the OCF to help with the budget shortfall. That $10 million would last a long time and prevent a reduction in services without really harming the MCF to a great degree, as the MCF has been self-sustaining for years. But that decisions has to be made by the EC, and none of them were really open to it. Like I said, old habits die hard. Prater had to fight tooth and nail to get the EC to approve just $4 million for organizing activities from the MCF.

 

[flygirlqt]

Your assumption is incorrect. Rez is just a line pilot like you or me.

Can you tells where the other 56,000 ALPA line pilots were during this "briefing"? Or the notification about this?

 

[PCL_128]

Can you tells where the other 56,000 ALPA line pilots were during this "briefing"? Or the notification about this?

I won't speak for Rez, because I haven't called him yet to see how he heard about it. But, I can say that I still hear quite a bit because I have lots of friends that are still reps and still staffers in Herndon. Rez used to be a rep, so maybe he just talked to a buddy in Herndon.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is a very enlightening comment here Rez as it leads one to believe that you are obviously pretty far up the hierarchy at ALPA National. This also explains perfectly your total intransigence in listening to the complaints of the membership. The more you write the more it becomes obvious that you are a direct benefactor in the spoils of ALPA National.

I flew with a guy who was in Gulf War One. He was not surprised but amazed at the ignorance of the common Iraqi citizen. Of course information there was greatly and tightly controlled that the conspiracy theories, paranoia and wild ideas were both amazing and frustrating.

The difference is information is readily available for the ALPA member. All I benefit from is my career and the profession. There is no financial gain, status, or recognition for me. Oh I keep getting offers to volunteer... but that is only time away from family. Besides I don't think you'll be appreciative...

You need me to be high up at ALPA-N to justify your mindset. I hold no elected office. If I were high up at ALPA-N I'd be doing a disservice by wasting time on FI when I could be working the issues. ... you are not going to change your mind.. thus you must justify...

Until those in power truly understand and accept that ALPA has a very serious problem on their hands with credibility and membership satisfaction, I expect the downward spiral for ALPA to continue. Naturally, ALPA National does not care because they understand their source of income is not related to their performance or return in value to the membership.

Again... more off base thinking to justify your mindset.

First who is truly in power. The ALPA-N officers are just as frustrated as many of us... they want to move in a direction... they are ex-officio on the EB. The MEC Chairs have the votes....

How did the MEC chairs get elected?

The end result I believe we will see another major airline with a decertification effort within the next couple of years. I am going to take a wild guess it will be either CAL or the former pilots at NWA pushing for it at the combined Delta.

I don't think CAL. You are saying that, I think, because you are close to the airline. Every pilot thinks their airline is the worst, minus USAIR. UAL recently had an ALPA decert effort fizzle out...

Also, you still never answered my question to you about your own ideas for fixing ALPA besides pointing fingers at the membership. How about some original ideas instead of your tired song and dance about membership apathy? Leadership and commitment starts at the top.

So you recognize membership apathy.... Do you agree or disagree its part of the problem?

Can you control your apathy and disdain...right now? Can you choose to work and fight for positive change despite the ALPA problems? Or is your cooperation conditional?

The risk of highlighting ALPA's problems is the membership will point and say "aha!" see its not me... here are the problems... I have no responsibility... if ALPA-N would only do their part then my career expectation would be realized.

But I'll mention what I think ALPA should be doing to fix things, combined with what the membership needs to do...... fair?



The leadership does need to build its relationship with the membership. The leaders get too focused on the issues and neglect the membership. This is a leadership skill but also, keep in mind, if an ALPA leader is working his/her relationship with the members they are not working the issues. With limited volunteers there is too much work to be done.

When only 35% of the members vote, who are the members getting as leaders. In addition, what does an LEC do, when only a management wanna-be and a narcissist is running for office, for example? ALPA is a volunteer organization. Everyone already has a job flying the line. Why should anyone volunteer to do more for no pay? Would you?

Every Feb. ALPA has a leadership conference. In reality it is a resource conference. It doesn't teach newly elected LEC reps to be union leaders. That needs to change. Just because one was elected doesn't mean s/he is a good leader. Is that ALPA-N fault? I mean sure ALPA can have a better leadership conference, and they should.. but is their responsibility of the only 35% of members that elected him. And what if the elected member is a total tool? Now what?


In addition, when LEC members attend meetings, the leaders don't really know how to run a meeting. When unsatisfied members show up to voice their concerns they are often "shut down" and "over ruled". Why would a member return to the next meeting?

Look how Prater got elected. Do you know how the CAL and UAL guys behaved? How can you blame ALPA-N for that?

Like any relationship.. it takes two. Both have responsibilities, do they not?

The membership operates on a mindset that is not realistic with ALPA:

First... the membership is quite selfish. Each individual wants to know what ALPA is going to do for them. They are not interested in the problems of their fellow pilot or of the profession. Simply put each ALPA member wants for them: days off and money. Isn't that what it is really all about? (for example USAPA. They split and now we are all paying for it.) When ALPA doesn't do for the individual what the individual thinks ALPA should be doing regardless of reasonable expectations... the member gets mad...

Instead ALPA needs to lead its members to realize that the way to days off and money is through being custodians of the profession... not trying to take all one can at another expense. Which is how we currently do it.

Members are ignorant. They really don't take the time to understand how unions work. They will read their FOM and AOM to fly the jet but they won't read the C&BL, Admin Manual, magazine or Flying the Line I & II. Of course when this is suggested members roll their eyes because members operate on the paradigm that ALPA should be working to serving them.. why should they have to self educate... they pay dues.

Paying dues is something everyone does. Does it yield entitlement? To what? Over whom? We all pays dues and ALPA work is done via volunteering. So if one pays dues and another pays dues and volunteers... who is really helping the profession.

ALPA members think ALPA is more powerful than it is. Members expect ALPA to just wave a wand and make it so. ALPA is just a small cog amongst larger cogs in the vast machine manipulated by those who control the distribution of power and wealth in the world. I say the world, because we have truly gone global. And there are people, gov't, companies, etc on the other side of the world that will effect our careers. To think that ALPA can protect us from those forces is truly ignorant.

Who is ALPA National? The Executive council and board. Once again.. most members don't know. And they expect ALPA-N to work local issues. ALPA-N isn't set up like that, so expecting something that isn't true isn't fair for anyone....is it?


The beloved issue: compensation. Is it too much? If it is, it is not as much as the membership thinks... Many members think the President should take his own salary at his airline. That would be a 50% paycut. Would you take a 50% paycut? I say 50% because instead of having 15 days off, its 30 days on. Would you work 100% more the same money..

The compensation is determined by the BOD. A democratic and political process. Not a back room process as many want to believe. If you really believe comp. is an issue then change it. Why would any do it for you? Start a grassroots movement. Draft a resolution. Show it to others and edit it as needed so it will pass. Pass it at your LEC. Now here is the effective part. Start a website: www.alpaprezcompensation.com or whatever you like. Get on FI and show others how pass your resolution at their LEC's. With enough resolutions passed at LEC before the 2008BOD you should be able to address it in committee. Your thoughts?


It really is about service isn't it.... the ALPA members expect and demand to be served. But in actuality, it is about mutual service... The leadership and membership serve each other. Like any relationship.. say a marriage. Does a wife serve her husband and the husband not serve the wife? Or do they mutually work together?

When union leaders address the company or gov't they are labeled at "union agenda-ist" in that they really don't represent their employees or citizens. They way things really get done is via the masses. When picketing, marching, polling and voting is done with minority participation it simply tells mgnt and gov't that pilots don't want self government. It tell them that they, the company and gov't know what is best for pilots. That unions are simply an obstacle to be overcome.

As American citizens do we have a responsibility to participate in democracy? Do soldiers die for what?

The members really want results without effort. They want reward but no responsibility. The real members of ALPA understand there are serious flaws but they don't give up and go antipathetic. They stay engaged.

I am extremely frustrated with ALPA. And I am quite surprised how ineffective we are. But what is there to gain by declaring it all FUBAR? With globalization coming, being in house or union free is career suicide. The jB and Skywest pilots will truly be screwed.

ALPA hating is the popular culture hobby. But it doesn't accomplish much. In fact it regresses

No one is perfect. Not you, not me, not gov't, not ALPA. But we don't reject ourselves, our American citizenship because of imperfections.... why do we reject ALPA?


Will you reply in kind as I have?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What is interesting is that you obviously believe ALPA furloughing is worse than an ALPA member being furloughed.

No I just don't care for the mindset of misery loves company. IOW, you are miserable and it won't be right till everyone is miserable with you.

Rather, I'd rather work to make everyone content if not prosper.

We don't fly planes so ALPA can exist. We're the customer. Of my many, and most recent, interaction(s) with ALPA National I can say beyond any doubt: They're sure powered human flight only took place so there could be ALPA.

Who said we are the customer? Justify this mindset?

I see ALPA has a resource. Do you buy a tank of gas and expect the gas to drive you around? Turn the key, steer the car?

I don't like anybody getting furloughed. However, if you alienate, p!ssoff, overcharge or otherwise treat your customers like sh!t, you're not far from being furloughed.

The staffers have done that? They are getting laid off because of USAPA.

All ALPA has to do is rededicate themselves to their customers and look for ways to better serve them and furloughs will end. (Which is the same thing any going concern has to do) But they won't.

So the ALPA volunteers should work harder and smarter so you don't have to...??

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... here is your simple fix for ALPA.

It needs to become just like AOPA, an advocacy group that provides Aeromedical, Legal and does PAC stuff for airline pilots. It needs to cease being a bargaining agent for groups because it is grossly ineffective - Aloha case really proved it.

Basically, there ya go... exploit the strengths of ALPA and get rid of the weaknesses. We all know that ALPA is a worthless bargaining agent.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's tough being an alpa apologist.....

I make no apologies for ALPA. We, as members, have serious problems. ALPA has hugh problems...

I just don't see value in complaining without offering prgamatic solutions. Like paying dues, anyone can complain... but to actually work for progress.. that takes much more...

alpa can't reform itself and be more responsive to it's problems and weaknesses because it has no will to challenge the senior people at each airline, who use their leverage at the bargaining table to benefit themselves at the expense of the strength of the association.

Agreed.

However, is it ALPA's fault because the senior guys won't give up some of the pie? Would you volunteer to give up a % of your pay and work rules with nothing in return.

It is easy to point out the problems, but it takes much to work for solutions.

Thus, no reform on national seniority, no end to oursourcing and second-class careers, no end to whipsawing by mgmt. Mgmt. has played us like a old drum for too long...

As I said... you can blame game all you want. You think it is a select few that are hoarding all the riches. It is not.

The problems are complex with no easy solutions, but you'd rather just play the blame game.

The national president could force reform simply by refusing to sign contracts with these provisions.

How would you feel if you voted in favor with the majority and the ALPA president negated your vote? You'd cry foul.

Or, the national board, made up of reps., could pass resolutions changing alpa's constitution and by-laws.
But, who controls the board? The reps with the most constituents(majors/legacies) and the least inclination to embrace change, and whose constituents benefit from the status quo.

Isn't this simply majority. If the majority is made up of major airline pilots then shouldn't they be able to, thru voting, be the majority?

We need to heal ourselves, first.

What does that mean. I agree. but how?

Our elected officers in Herndon need to stop working for the alpa staff lawyers and communications people(the message wagging the dog?) and start fighting for our jobs and careers. At present, ask any officer of the association what is first duty is to, and the true answer will be to the association and it's fiscal position, not to the status of our jobs or the profession.

I never believed that...

The only thing about alpa and our contracts that survived intact this decade was.... the major contingincy fund. It's like a b2 bomber, left in the hanger and never used. They piddle out stipends to mec's in negotiations for strike preparedness, but will never use it to actually fight for us.
We use the funds to actually facilitate our roll-over/bend-over with management.....

It does take money... but what about pilots showing up in masses numbers?

My 1.9% worth, fraternally

My 1.95% PLUS all my time as a volunteer..working and fighting to make this profession better despite all the fustrations and flaws of ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez... here is your simple fix for ALPA.

It needs to become just like AOPA, an advocacy group that provides Aeromedical, Legal and does PAC stuff for airline pilots. It needs to cease being a bargaining agent for groups because it is grossly ineffective - Aloha case really proved it.

AOPA has about 500,000 members. ALPA has 56,000. Who has the strength in numbers?

Basically, there ya go... exploit the strengths of ALPA and get rid of the weaknesses. We all know that ALPA is a worthless bargaining agent.

I never heard the Aloha pilots complain about thier CBA. If you want to complain about how BK laws, etc favor labor last, we can compare notes.

Maybe you got screwed harder than I.

 

[PCL_128]

I flew with a guy who was in Gulf War One. He was not surprised but amazed at the ignorance of the common Iraqi citizen. Of course information there was greatly and tightly controlled that the conspiracy theories, paranoia and wild ideas were both amazing and frustrating.

The difference is information is readily available for the ALPA member. All I benefit from is my career and the profession. There is no financial gain, status, or recognition for me. Oh I keep getting offers to volunteer... but that is only time away from family. Besides I don't think you'll be appreciative...

You need me to be high up at ALPA-N to justify your mindset. I hold no elected office. If I were high up at ALPA-N I'd be doing a disservice by wasting time on FI when I could be working the issues. ... you are not going to change your mind.. thus you must justify...



Again... more off base thinking to justify your mindset.

First who is truly in power. The ALPA-N officers are just as frustrated as many of us... they want to move in a direction... they are ex-officio on the EB. The MEC Chairs have the votes....

How did the MEC chairs get elected?



I don't think CAL. You are saying that, I think, because you are close to the airline. Every pilot thinks their airline is the worst, minus USAIR. UAL recently had an ALPA decert effort fizzle out...



So you recognize membership apathy.... Do you agree or disagree its part of the problem?

Can you control your apathy and disdain...right now? Can you choose to work and fight for positive change despite the ALPA problems? Or is your cooperation conditional?

The risk of highlighting ALPA's problems is the membership will point and say "aha!" see its not me... here are the problems... I have no responsibility... if ALPA-N would only do their part then my career expectation would be realized.

But I'll mention what I think ALPA should be doing to fix things, combined with what the membership needs to do...... fair?



The leadership does need to build its relationship with the membership. The leaders get too focused on the issues and neglect the membership. This is a leadership skill but also, keep in mind, if an ALPA leader is working his/her relationship with the members they are not working the issues. With limited volunteers there is too much work to be done.

When only 35% of the members vote, who are the members getting as leaders. In addition, what does an LEC do, when only a management wanna-be and a narcissist is running for office, for example? ALPA is a volunteer organization. Everyone already has a job flying the line. Why should anyone volunteer to do more for no pay? Would you?

Every Feb. ALPA has a leadership conference. In reality it is a resource conference. It doesn't teach newly elected LEC reps to be union leaders. That needs to change. Just because one was elected doesn't mean s/he is a good leader. Is that ALPA-N fault? I mean sure ALPA can have a better leadership conference, and they should.. but is their responsibility of the only 35% of members that elected him. And what if the elected member is a total tool? Now what?


In addition, when LEC members attend meetings, the leaders don't really know how to run a meeting. When unsatisfied members show up to voice their concerns they are often "shut down" and "over ruled". Why would a member return to the next meeting?

Look how Prater got elected. Do you know how the CAL and UAL guys behaved? How can you blame ALPA-N for that?

Like any relationship.. it takes two. Both have responsibilities, do they not?

The membership operates on a mindset that is not realistic with ALPA:

First... the membership is quite selfish. Each individual wants to know what ALPA is going to do for them. They are not interested in the problems of their fellow pilot or of the profession. Simply put each ALPA member wants for them: days off and money. Isn't that what it is really all about? (for example USAPA. They split and now we are all paying for it.) When ALPA doesn't do for the individual what the individual thinks ALPA should be doing regardless of reasonable expectations... the member gets mad...

Instead ALPA needs to lead its members to realize that the way to days off and money is through being custodians of the profession... not trying to take all one can at another expense. Which is how we currently do it.

Members are ignorant. They really don't take the time to understand how unions work. They will read their FOM and AOM to fly the jet but they won't read the C&BL, Admin Manual, magazine or Flying the Line I & II. Of course when this is suggested members roll their eyes because members operate on the paradigm that ALPA should be working to serving them.. why should they have to self educate... they pay dues.

Paying dues is something everyone does. Does it yield entitlement? To what? Over whom? We all pays dues and ALPA work is done via volunteering. So if one pays dues and another pays dues and volunteers... who is really helping the profession.

ALPA members think ALPA is more powerful than it is. Members expect ALPA to just wave a wand and make it so. ALPA is just a small cog amongst larger cogs in the vast machine manipulated by those who control the distribution of power and wealth in the world. I say the world, because we have truly gone global. And there are people, gov't, companies, etc on the other side of the world that will effect our careers. To think that ALPA can protect us from those forces is truly ignorant.

Who is ALPA National? The Executive council and board. Once again.. most members don't know. And they expect ALPA-N to work local issues. ALPA-N isn't set up like that, so expecting something that isn't true isn't fair for anyone....is it?


The beloved issue: compensation. Is it too much? If it is, it is not as much as the membership thinks... Many members think the President should take his own salary at his airline. That would be a 50% paycut. Would you take a 50% paycut? I say 50% because instead of having 15 days off, its 30 days on. Would you work 100% more the same money..

The compensation is determined by the BOD. A democratic and political process. Not a back room process as many want to believe. If you really believe comp. is an issue then change it. Why would any do it for you? Start a grassroots movement. Draft a resolution. Show it to others and edit it as needed so it will pass. Pass it at your LEC. Now here is the effective part. Start a website: www.alpaprezcompensation.com or whatever you like. Get on FI and show others how pass your resolution at their LEC's. With enough resolutions passed at LEC before the 2008BOD you should be able to address it in committee. Your thoughts?


It really is about service isn't it.... the ALPA members expect and demand to be served. But in actuality, it is about mutual service... The leadership and membership serve each other. Like any relationship.. say a marriage. Does a wife serve her husband and the husband not serve the wife? Or do they mutually work together?

When union leaders address the company or gov't they are labeled at "union agenda-ist" in that they really don't represent their employees or citizens. They way things really get done is via the masses. When picketing, marching, polling and voting is done with minority participation it simply tells mgnt and gov't that pilots don't want self government. It tell them that they, the company and gov't know what is best for pilots. That unions are simply an obstacle to be overcome.

As American citizens do we have a responsibility to participate in democracy? Do soldiers die for what?

The members really want results without effort. They want reward but no responsibility. The real members of ALPA understand there are serious flaws but they don't give up and go antipathetic. They stay engaged.

I am extremely frustrated with ALPA. And I am quite surprised how ineffective we are. But what is there to gain by declaring it all FUBAR? With globalization coming, being in house or union free is career suicide. The jB and Skywest pilots will truly be screwed.

ALPA hating is the popular culture hobby. But it doesn't accomplish much. In fact it regresses

No one is perfect. Not you, not me, not gov't, not ALPA. But we don't reject ourselves, our American citizenship because of imperfections.... why do we reject ALPA?


Will you reply in kind as I have?

Damn, that was a good post! I agree with every word.

 

[PCL_128]

We all know that ALPA is a worthless bargaining agent.

No, we don't all agree with that. I wish I had ALPA as a bargaining agent right now.

 

[Freight Dog]

AOPA has about 500,000 members. ALPA has 56,000. Who has the strength in numbers?

If ALPA opened its doors to individuals, rather than pilot groups, you'd see its membership rise substantially. Nobody is saying that ALPA doesn't have a purpose. As an advocacy group, it's not bad. As a bargaining agent, miserable failure.

I never heard the Aloha pilots complain about thier CBA. If you want to complain about how BK laws, etc favor labor last, we can compare notes.

Maybe you got screwed harder than I.

No. The CBA was fine. But here's the underlying problem. ALPA's one and only threat is a strike. If you take that away, ALPA really has nothing to bargain with. Strike option has been taken away from within by ALPA National. You can talk tough all you want, but if you don't have the balls to walk the walk, you lose all credibility, and that's precisely what happened at Aloha - courtesy of ALPA National. The membership was ready to walk, and voted overwhelmingly to do so. ALPA National "strongly urged" not to.

Who controls the purse, Rez?

ALPA is really outdated as a union. It has its pluses, but being a union isn't one of them - it's actually a huge minus.

Oh, and please spare me the membership involvement and pragmatic solution talk.

Membership got heavily involved here, and there were no pragmatic solutions left.

Yet, here's ALPA answer:

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

If you aren't embarrassed by this as an ALPA member, Rez... then I really have to question your professionalism and your self-respect.

You can cheer and preach about ALPA all you want. The facts are there. The events are documented.

What did I want from ALPA?

1) Allow Aloha ALPA MEC call for a strike immediately following the overwhelming vote for strike. Those who cross would be labeled scabs.

2) Immediately release $500,000 from MCF for Aloha pilots.

This would have carried a huge message to the rest of the industry and would have gone the long way in recovery and restoration of the profession.

Instead...

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

I'm ashamed and embarrassed that I ever belonged to this organization.

 

[saabservant]

Apathy is certainly a problem, and maybe we are like the voting population, we get the politics we deserve.
I was elected with only nine votes, out of a council of over 350. About 12 came to the nomination meeting, over half were reps/officers.
Alpa is run by those who show up....

But, I AM TIRED OF HEARING THE SAME LAME EXCUSE FOR THE STATUS QUO: "THIS IS HOW WE DO IT, THIS IS HOW IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN DONE, AND PEOPLE WILL BIT** IF WE TRY TO CHANGE IT".

Contracts, seniority, everything.

Bull****.

If you try to push for reform, you get labeled as "radical", or "militant".
Looking at thousands of second-class career pilots at the regionals, and at the concessions taken, maybe we need some militancy.....

cheers

 

[Flopgut]

No I just don't care for the mindset of misery loves company. IOW, you are miserable and it won't be right till everyone is miserable with you.

Rather, I'd rather work to make everyone content if not prosper.



Who said we are the customer? Justify this mindset?

It doesn't matter what the endeavor is: there is always a customer-type relationship. www.tompeters.com

I see ALPA has a resource. Do you buy a tank of gas and expect the gas to drive you around? Turn the key, steer the car?



The staffers have done that? They are getting laid off because of USAPA.

Are the junior pilots who get furloughed directly causal? No, they're just the ones who get furloughed. No difference here. Staffers are paying the price for the screwed up leadership.



So the ALPA volunteers should work harder and smarter so you don't have to...??

ALPA should do the best they can for the membership. Period! That is NOT what they are doing. Remember that I like to discuss the RLA/RRB and how it relates to what we are doing? I've basically run that to ground and here is what I've come up with: ALPA National won't touch it because they can't figure out how they [ALPA] would get money from it. That's the sad truth!! And this goes back a longtime. ALPA was close to pursuing an RRB-like pilot benefit 25 years ago. It would have been a sweeping benefit for the entire profession, but since ALPA couldn't skim money directly into the ALPA budget, it got dropped.

We don't really have a union here Rez. You can't fix ALPA's problems by simply volunteering.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA National won't touch it because they can't figure out how they [ALPA] would get money from it. That's the sad truth!! And this goes back a longtime. ALPA was close to pursuing an RRB-like pilot benefit 25 years ago. It would have been a sweeping benefit for the entire profession, but since ALPA couldn't skim money directly into the ALPA budget, it got dropped.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If ALPA opened its doors to individuals, rather than pilot groups, you'd see its membership rise substantially. Nobody is saying that ALPA doesn't have a purpose. As an advocacy group, it's not bad. As a bargaining agent, miserable failure.

If ALPA would only do what you think.

Answer this... why does ALPA not open its doors to individuals? Did it do so in the past? Was it successful?

No. The CBA was fine. But here's the underlying problem. ALPA's one and only threat is a strike. If you take that away, ALPA really has nothing to bargain with. Strike option has been taken away from within by ALPA National. You can talk tough all you want, but if you don't have the balls to walk the walk, you lose all credibility, and that's precisely what happened at Aloha - courtesy of ALPA National. The membership was ready to walk, and voted overwhelmingly to do so. ALPA National "strongly urged" not to.

Strike sympathies went away with the APA sick out, PATCO and the Bush Admin.

Who controls the purse, Rez?

How would striking a BK carrier saved your job?

ALPA is really outdated as a union. It has its pluses, but being a union isn't one of them - it's actually a huge minus.



Oh, and please spare me the membership involvement and pragmatic solution talk.

Membership got heavily involved here, and there were no pragmatic solutions left.

Yet, here's ALPA answer:

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

If you aren't embarrassed by this as an ALPA member, Rez... then I really have to question your professionalism and your self-respect.

I question the professionalism and self respect of those working for free.. you have no problem with them, but dispize ALPA for trying gain public sympathy. No?

You can cheer and preach about ALPA all you want. The facts are there. The events are documented.

I don't cheer ALPA, I just don't advocate being a cry baby and quitter...

What did I want from ALPA?

1) Allow Aloha ALPA MEC call for a strike immediately following the overwhelming vote for strike. Those who cross would be labeled scabs.

Ok... why did it not happen?

In your situation, would the strike be legal or illegal. If legal.. how would your MEC go about it and how long would it take.

If illegal what would be the consequences...

IOW, why did ALPA-N say no.

2) Immediately release $500,000 from MCF for Aloha pilots.

Ok... sounds good. What would you use the money for?

This would have carried a huge message to the rest of the industry and would have gone the long way in recovery and restoration of the profession.

How.

Instead...

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

I'm ashamed and embarrassed that I ever belonged to this organization.

At times... so am I but its all we got. So I'll try to make it not so shameful and embarrassing... is that ok.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It doesn't matter what the endeavor is: there is always a customer-type relationship. www.tompeters.com

it says.. we... you are all about ME. Do you see the difference?

The staffers have done that? They are getting laid off because of USAPA.

Are the junior pilots who get furloughed directly causal? No, they're just the ones who get furloughed. No difference here. Staffers are paying the price for the screwed up leadership.

fair enough... however too many pilots are gleeful at staffer furloughs simply because they want others to be miserable..

ALPA should do the best they can for the membership. Period! That is NOT what they are doing. Remember that I like to discuss the RLA/RRB and how it relates to what we are doing? I've basically run that to ground and here is what I've come up with: ALPA National won't touch it because they can't figure out how they [ALPA] would get money from it. That's the sad truth!! And this goes back a longtime. ALPA was close to pursuing an RRB-like pilot benefit 25 years ago. It would have been a sweeping benefit for the entire profession, but since ALPA couldn't skim money directly into the ALPA budget, it got dropped.

So you had a great idea, but only you or a minority thought so....

Lots of great ideas are shot down every day... in all organizations.... does that mean you give up and walk away?

What about the guys that stay engaged? Are they losers becuase they had great ideas at ALPA only to have those ideas rejected but they choose to stay at the table?

We don't really have a union here Rez. You can't fix ALPA's problems by simply volunteering.

What about voting? I think you'll say no.


So if volunteering, voting and staying at the table don't work.... what does?

 

[Colonel Savage]

No, we don't all agree with that. I wish I had ALPA as a bargaining agent right now.

How does the rest of the pilot group feel? Has anyone started a drive?

 

[PCL_128]

How does the rest of the pilot group feel?

No idea. I know I've heard plenty of individuals mention the idea of ALPA, but that isn't representative of the whole. I would like to eventually see polling data on the question, but now isn't the time during contract negotiations.

Has anyone started a drive?

ALPA doesn't raid unions, so a drive isn't possible without support from within the NPA leadership.