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The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

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Rez O. Lewshun said:
Unbelievable.... so ALPA national sould be responsible for Aloha pilots but Aloha pilots should not be for Aloha pilots....

Is that right??
Click to expand...

Man you speak like a true politician. And no that is not a compliment.

Are you actually reading my posts? Why do you keep saying I believe the pilots have no responsibility?

NO!! That is NOT right, and I have stated numerous times that they (the pilots) should not be doing it. YES, they (the pilots) do have responsibilty. BUT SO DOES NATIONAL.

Alpa losing credibility by coming out against members woking for no pay after they are doing it?: You mean like they did for supporting it.....!?! Do you actually think alpa gains any credibility for supporting it's union members working for no pay?

As for the rest of your post (where you continually sugggest I say the pilots have no responsibility), again: yes the aloha pilots have responsibilty. So does alpa. Care to actually talk about alpa's responsibilty? Are you actually saying national has no responsibility in this case?


Paycuts at national: how about the "management" of alpa (the board) institute the cuts just like any other management in the country would. Are you trying to say that the board (or whatever group that is in "charge") has no say in compensation of officers and office staff? Or no say in the staffing levels? Is there nobody at alpa national that can institute employee cuts?? They can come out with a resolution to increase dues, but not one to make cuts??

If times are that lean with regards to dues, then perhaps cuts need to be made. Whoever gets that done, then start doing it. Going to the members for more dues before making cuts is irresponsible. But most are not suprised in this behavior from alpa. You mentioned losing credibility........
 
is there non union labor working the docks?
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Rez,

To answer your question from page 1, no. There are two unions in the US representing all of the longshoremen. One West Coast (Int'l Longshore and Warehouse Union) and one East Coast (Int'l Longshoremen's Association). The ILA operates under one master contract (found here on their website: http://www.ilaunion.org/pdf/MasterContract.pdf ). They also have a veeeeery interesting code of ethics (see part 7: http://www.ilaunion.org/codeofethics.html ).
The ILWU is structured in much the same way, they just happen to be left wing loonies about a lot of things (Marxist in their founding days).

They were able to prevent non-union workers from doing any of their labor from day one. And, anyone that would dare to work for them as non-union could count on a goon squad visiting them (google "longshoremen" and "organized crime" -- some interesting article come up...). Unfortunately, the horse has already left the barn in regards to pilots in the US all coming under one union with one contract. That would have been the answer 50 years ago, but even then we were all too greedy to go for it (as it would have meant gains for some but cuts for others...).
 
JohnDoe said:
Man you speak like a true politician. And no that is not a compliment.

Are you actually reading my posts? Why do you keep saying I believe the pilots have no responsibility?

NO!! That is NOT right, and I have stated numerous times that they (the pilots) should not be doing it. YES, they (the pilots) do have responsibilty. BUT SO DOES NATIONAL.

Alpa losing credibility by coming out against members woking for no pay after they are doing it?: You mean like they did for supporting it.....!?! Do you actually think alpa gains any credibility for supporting it's union members working for no pay?

As for the rest of your post (where you continually sugggest I say the pilots have no responsibility), again: yes the aloha pilots have responsibilty. So does alpa. Care to actually talk about alpa's responsibilty? Are you actually saying national has no responsibility in this case?
Click to expand...

What do you expect ALPA to do? So you are against the effort to gain public sympathy. Got it.

What would you have ALPA do? Let's hear a pragmatic game plan.


Paycuts at national: how about the "management" of alpa (the board) institute the cuts just like any other management in the country would. Are you trying to say that the board (or whatever group that is in "charge") has no say in compensation of officers and office staff? Or no say in the staffing levels? Is there nobody at alpa national that can institute employee cuts?? They can come out with a resolution to increase dues, but not one to make cuts??
Click to expand...

IF you really want cuts... it should be in ALPA management. Not the officers. Keep in mind the only officer that is an employee of ALPA is the President. The other three are still on "flight pay loss" so to speak.

So cutting the Presidents pay is really fultile. It may emotionally feel good... but that's it...

You might want to look at the general manager of ALPA. His pay is high IMHO. That is the employee types that you should be looking at...

If times are that lean with regards to dues, then perhaps cuts need to be made. Whoever gets that done, then start doing it. Going to the members for more dues before making cuts is irresponsible. But most are not suprised in this behavior from alpa. You mentioned losing credibility........
Click to expand...

Let's stay realistic here....

First of all... Who is Whoever? That you need to know.


Going to the members for dues is not irresponsible. In fact the 401k effort is a push by the EB not the EC. In addition the 401k effort is from last year and its intent is level the playing field. I don't agree with it, but the support is from the EB. The EB as you know is made up mostly of MEC Chairmen... The MEC chairs are volunteers who get no ALPA salary, work more than they would than flying the line...

The problem with the ALPA budget is concessionary CBA's over the last 7 years brought on and mostly responsible by individuals who voted in favor of these cuts.

In addition, the loss of ALPA carriers such as ACA/Indy, ATA, to name only two of many due to market forces has also impacted the ALPA budget.

Finally the USAPA effort. Your fellow USAIR pilots have really made a poor situation worst. The blame on that can go around... from USIR pilots, to ALPA staff and officers to you and me.


Got any pragmatic solutions...??
 
yea I will do the job for 1/2 of what is being paid right now, I am a former ALPA member should do just fine. But remember you get what you pay for.
 
pilotyip said:
yea I will do the job for 1/2 of what is being paid right now, I am a former ALPA member should do just fine. But remember you get what you pay for.
Click to expand...
YIP, you couldn't do much less than what is going on now.
 
CopilotDoug said:
If ALPA is to be fixed, it's a start. Now how about getting Prater onboard with the shared sacrifices?
Click to expand...

I thought you'd like someone losing thier job.... shows your character...

As far as prater.... your family members don't have the skillset... How do you think prater pay is cut... does he just declare it?

Do they even vote in LEC elections?
 
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Rez O. Lewshun said:
I thought you'd like someone losing thier job.... shows your character...

As far as prater.... your family members don't have the skillset... How do you think prater pay is cut... does he just declare it?

Do they even vote in LEC elections?
Click to expand...
No I don't take any pleasure in knowing someone is out of a job. But that's the real world and as you've said, life is not fair. No one is entitled to a paycheck.

Yeah, they're quite active in ALPA. But they aren't the guys bitching/complaining/doing nothing at the same time. So your argument isn't with them.
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
I got a quick breifing today.... no names...
Click to expand...

This is a very enlightening comment here Rez as it leads one to believe that you are obviously pretty far up the hierarchy at ALPA National. This also explains perfectly your total intransigence in listening to the complaints of the membership. The more you write the more it becomes obvious that you are a direct benefactor in the spoils of ALPA National.

Until those in power truly understand and accept that ALPA has a very serious problem on their hands with credibility and membership satisfaction, I expect the downward spiral for ALPA to continue. Naturally, ALPA National does not care because they understand their source of income is not related to their performance or return in value to the membership.

The end result I believe we will see another major airline with a decertification effort within the next couple of years. I am going to take a wild guess it will be either CAL or the former pilots at NWA pushing for it at the combined Delta.

Also, you still never answered my question to you about your own ideas for fixing ALPA besides pointing fingers at the membership. How about some original ideas instead of your tired song and dance about membership apathy? Leadership and commitment starts at the top.
 
flygirlqt said:
Also, you still never answered my question to you about your own ideas for fixing ALPA besides pointing fingers at the membership. How about some original ideas instead of your tired song and dance about membership apathy? Leadership and commitment starts at the top.
Click to expand...


Good luck getting an answer to anything.

All Rez seems to be able to do is answer questions with questions.

He still hasn't answered my simple question of whether alpa national had any responsibility to act in the case of aloha pilots working for free. Simple yes or no.
 
JohnDoe said:
Good luck getting an answer to anything.
All Rez seems to be able to do is answer questions with questions.
Click to expand...

Don't forget to mention that part of his answers always contains blame toward the membership to rationalize ALPA's failures over and over.

JohnDoe said:
He still hasn't answered my simple question of whether alpa national had any responsibility to act in the case of aloha pilots working for free. Simple yes or no.
Click to expand...

Maybe a yes or no answer is just to difficult for him?
 
It's tough being an alpa apologist.....

alpa can't reform itself and be more responsive to it's problems and weaknesses because it has no will to challenge the senior people at each airline, who use their leverage at the bargaining table to benefit themselves at the expense of the strength of the association.
Thus, no reform on national seniority, no end to oursourcing and second-class careers, no end to whipsawing by mgmt. Mgmt. has played us like a old drum for too long...

The national president could force reform simply by refusing to sign contracts with these provisions.
Or, the national board, made up of reps., could pass resolutions changing alpa's constitution and by-laws.
But, who controls the board? The reps with the most constituents(majors/legacies) and the least inclination to embrace change, and whose constituents benefit from the status quo. We need to heal ourselves, first.

Our elected officers in Herndon need to stop working for the alpa staff lawyers and communications people(the message wagging the dog?) and start fighting for our jobs and careers. At present, ask any officer of the association what is first duty is to, and the true answer will be to the association and it's fiscal position, not to the status of our jobs or the profession.

The only thing about alpa and our contracts that survived intact this decade was.... the major contingincy fund. It's like a b2 bomber, left in the hanger and never used. They piddle out stipends to mec's in negotiations for strike preparedness, but will never use it to actually fight for us.
We use the funds to actually facilitate our roll-over/bend-over with management.....

My 1.9% worth, fraternally
 
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Well said! You have a grasp of the situation now if only others in power would follow. Not likely given the usual buttboy suspects on this board.
 
flygirlqt said:
This is a very enlightening comment here Rez as it leads one to believe that you are obviously pretty far up the hierarchy at ALPA National.
Click to expand...

Your assumption is incorrect. Rez is just a line pilot like you or me.
 

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