The union's action demonstrated the discipline of its membership.

[BigMeat]

Among them was Guillermo Castillo, 35, of Calexico, who decided to wait it out near the TraPac Terminal in the Port of Los Angeles. Resting his head on a towel matted against his cab door, Castillo complained: "I heard nothing about this. I'm losing a whole day of work, and about $580




Why do I feel like that for the last 10 years I have been underpaid?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hey Rez... check out this link and tell me what you think.

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...iew.aspx?itemid=14005&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256


Whatcha think?

What other union on the face of this planet would do this?

Do what? What do you expect ALPA to do? What would the teamsters do? IPA, NPA...

Quit blaming ALPA for not being stronger than you expect it to be in this country. If you want strong unions go to France.

The economy is prime in this country... labor is lower than whale shat.... you don't get it.

I don't recall ALPA pilots helping me when I was furloughed out of seniority order. No one from Aloha cared.... but all of sudden your pain is foremost... and you want everyone else to stop what they are doing and take care of you.... Did you stop what you were doing to take care of anyone?


What are you doing to help your cause at Aloha? Are you working to right the wrongs??? Or are you just being pissed off that your being pissed on.

Answer this:

What do you expect ALPA to do!

Don't just say ALPA should MAKE Aloha management do this or that...

Or ALPA should just go to the courts and make the judge....


What is happening to you has happened to too many pilots already... it is nothing new.. it is just new to you.

Did you protest when it happend to others?

You have my support and help... but not with your attitude...


What do you expect ALPA to do?

 

[Freight Dog]

Do what? What do you expect ALPA to do? What would the teamsters do? IPA, NPA...

For starters, STOP ENDORSING WORKING FOR FREE!!!

I can tell you this, no Teamsters, IPA, APA, Longshoremen, etc. would ever endorse or encourage members to work for free!

How about basics, Rez?

Jesus Christ... did you even read the goddamn flyer?

 

[JohnDoe]

Rez:

As Freight Dog said, at the very least, alpa should not have come out with a pretty little article basically endorsing the pilots working for free.

They should have, at the very least, come out with an article stating what a bad idea it was for union members to be flying for no pay.

So there you have it, that is what we expect alpa to do, at the very minimum.

Why didn't that happen? Union members working for no pay.........this union (oops, association, and a loose one at that) has members working for no pay. All is lost IMHO.

 

[regionaltard]

Now... how is collectively laziness ALPA's fault..

Nothwthstanding the fact that many pilots are indeed lazy, what you call laziness is noting more than recognition of the futility of working within ALPA's current structure to effect meaningful change. Left completely unchecked during the tenures of Randy "Make it Rain for the Man" Babbitt and Duane "Alter ego, what alter ego?" Woerth the "democracy" you tout allowed the near total disenfranchisement of a significant portion of ALPA's membership to the detriment of us all.

I wasn't advocating for change as much as describing what I thought the miracle that saves the Association will look like. Barring that miracle, you can stick a fork in ALPA; it's done as a player in national politics and in the corporate arena. It will no doubt survive in some form as a vendor of services to airline pilots, but the days of a rising tide that lifts all boats are disappearing rapidly in the rear-view mirror.

I'm pretty sure that Prater isn't the guy to lead us to the promised land, but I give him credit for understanding that Age 65 was a done deal regardless of what those members of the Association who took the time to voice an opinion thought. It's debatable whether or not a more robust ALPA could have influenced the course of events, but it's also debatable whether or not the naked self-interest that drove oppositiom to Age 65 would have been as prevalent in a healthy and robust Union culture.

When you filter out all of the ad hominem attacks and seniority-grab conspiracy theories and recognize that a bit of overreaching is a necessary component of any foray into our system of civil justice, I believe that the kernel of truth in the RJDC's activities was a DFR lawsuit that should have been heard in its entirety. The fact that it expired as much as a result of the friction inherent in the legal system as anything else was not a victory for ALPA. You prattle on about the noble intentions of the Founders, but much of what the RJDC was advocating for amounted to no more than a strictly constructionist reading of the C & B and the Admin. Manual. A victory by the RJDC would have been cataclysmic in the short term, but I truly believe that BTFTTG is a necessary condition for rebuilding ALPA. I supported them despite having one of the "good jobs" because I understood that I did actually have a dog in the fight.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

For starters, STOP ENDORSING WORKING FOR FREE!!!

I can tell you this, no Teamsters, IPA, APA, Longshoremen, etc. would ever endorse or encourage members to work for free!

How about basics, Rez?

Jesus Christ... did you even read the goddamn flyer?

I see it as an PR push to gain public sympathy...

Rez:

As Freight Dog said, at the very least, alpa should not have come out with a pretty little article basically endorsing the pilots working for free.

They should have, at the very least, come out with an article stating what a bad idea it was for union members to be flying for no pay.

So there you have it, that is what we expect alpa to do, at the very minimum.

Why didn't that happen? Union members working for no pay.........this union (oops, association, and a loose one at that) has members working for no pay. All is lost IMHO.

How about the individual...... not work? Why do you expect individuals to work for free? If they do want to work for free how is that ALPA's fault..

Is there a court order forcing them to work for free? Still blaming ALPA but yet we've as a culture and society been setting up for this train wreck for decades.




Again..... you keep looking to ALPA to solve your problems...but what are you doing to help ALPA help you? ALPA was a resource to my MEC when when I was furloughed out of seniorty... When I lost my job I busted my tail as an volunteer so my fellow pilots could get back on thier feet as soon as possible...

When other pilots were wondering what ALPA was going to do for them (even though thier company screwed them) guys like me and a few others who were in the same boat as them with families and no pay were working to make it as painless for others...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nothwthstanding the fact that many pilots are indeed lazy,

Oh... so you recognize it...but you want to ignore it...


That is like saying... Notwhithstanding the fact that he was sleeping around on his wife.... the guy is really horny... so that makes it ok...



Please.... this nullifies the rest of your post... but I'll respond to it anyway..

what you call laziness is noting more than recognition of the futility of working within ALPA's current structure to effect meaningful change. Left completely unchecked during the tenures of Randy "Make it Rain for the Man" Babbitt and Duane "Alter ego, what alter ego?" Woerth the "democracy" you tout allowed the near total disenfranchisement of a significant portion of ALPA's membership to the detriment of us all.

If you can't manage democracy in America, then where? Sure it takes work, and it is fustrating... but what else are you going to do? If democracy doesn't work... then what?

I wasn't advocating for change as much as describing what I thought the miracle that saves the Association will look like. Barring that miracle, you can stick a fork in ALPA; it's done as a player in national politics and in the corporate arena. It will no doubt survive in some form as a vendor of services to airline pilots, but the days of a rising tide that lifts all boats are disappearing rapidly in the rear-view mirror.

Then what do you suggest to protect the profession in the next decades?

I'm pretty sure that Prater isn't the guy to lead us to the promised land,

I never thought he was.... but the rest of the pilots had to have him....

but I give him credit for understanding that Age 65 was a done deal regardless of what those members of the Association who took the time to voice an opinion thought.

The minority. Does democracy work when a majority actually participates? I mean we had a town council and mayor election last week... 8% particapted. How pathetic.

We've got MIL guys defending the consititution and our democracy....for what? So we can be apathetic? Not give a shat? Let's be clear.. the very MIL pilots that are fighting for the constitution and democracy are rejecting democracy as union members...

So if we don't value democracy... then what do we do? Get rid of it? And replace it with what?

It's debatable whether or not a more robust ALPA could have influenced the course of events, but it's also debatable whether or not the naked self-interest that drove oppositiom to Age 65 would have been as prevalent in a healthy and robust Union culture.

The only way ALPA will be more influential is greater member particaption. If the ALPA president says to gov't and industry.. I'll have 40,000 pilots marching the Wash DC Mall next month if you don't change... and have the abilty to make it happen... that is influence...

But pilots are too lazy was your opener and that is ok.

When you filter out all of the ad hominem attacks and seniority-grab conspiracy theories and recognize that a bit of overreaching is a necessary component of any foray into our system of civil justice, I believe that the kernel of truth in the RJDC's activities was a DFR lawsuit that should have been heard in its entirety. The fact that it expired as much as a result of the friction inherent in the legal system as anything else was not a victory for ALPA. You prattle on about the noble intentions of the Founders, but much of what the RJDC was advocating for amounted to no more than a strictly constructionist reading of the C & B and the Admin. Manual. A victory by the RJDC would have been cataclysmic in the short term, but I truly believe that BTFTTG is a necessary condition for rebuilding ALPA. I supported them despite having one of the "good jobs" because I understood that I did actually have a dog in the fight.

I support the RJDC right to address its grievences.

However I don't support thier tactics and methods. They would have been much more effective if they got significant of not majority support. But thier political skillset and leadership skills stink. They could not rally the membership. Had they, they would have been more successful.

Joe Merchants sig line is 'Democracy must be more than two wolves and a sheep argueing whats for dinner.'

Well democracy is more than that... via the lawsiuts... In many countries the miniority can't be heard, but in the good ol USA you can sue. Democracy allowed the McDonalds Hot coffee woman to sue. She was a single person who foreced the majority.

So even if one is weak minded and can't start a grassroots movement to effect change, meaning the RJDC, then they can always sue. Not so in most of the world.


Sorry, your post doesn't alleviate us as American citizens to be responsible members of democracy, whether it is gov't, HOA's, unions...

 

[CopilotDoug]

Did you vote in your last LEC election? I say no. Hows that draft resolution coming to slash compensation at the 2008BOD? No but you do meet the requirement for citizen...but you can't even be successful at that...And getting this thing back on track...I submit that pilot groups would be more effective in negotiating their own contracts through seperate inhouse Unions.

fractional pilots are not airline pilots...Fair enough, but can't you learn from them?

So if this is how pilots are.... how you are.... then why do expect the leaders to be different? I'm just giving you the big picture. The different airline pilot groups have their own interests in mind.

I'd rather go down trying to help my fellow pilot...And if I help vote in a contract which benefits me, doesn't that help the other pilots in my group?

 

[JohnDoe]

How about the individual...... not work? Why do you expect individuals to work for free? If they do want to work for free how is that ALPA's fault..

Is there a court order forcing them to work for free? Still blaming ALPA but yet we've as a culture and society been setting up for this train wreck for decades.

Rez:
Good job avoiding the question (like I should be suprised).

Of course the individuals should NOT be working for free. I assumed that went without saying, and most people would see that. Obviously I was wrong.

YOU, however, asked what we "expect alpa to do." I answered that question. They should, at the very least, have written an article AGAINST working for free. The Aloha pilots are doing it, and alpa should be against it. Do I need to rephrase it a couple of more times for you??

How about you re-read my response and answer the question.

 

[saabservant]

If you look at the advertisement/flyer, it is perfectly clear where the message is coming from- the alpa communications department. And believe me, the alpa comm. dept. is only second in influence in Herndon behind alpa legal.
The message, and it's presentation, are usually more important to leadership than the actual strategy, tactics, or effects on the pilots. If the pilots flying somehow believe that doing this will "save the airline, and our jobs" they are mistaken. Their airline and their jobs will be there so long as someone can and is making money by having it fly.

The message here to the public is to show how altruistic, and devoted the pilot group is to the hawaian(spelling?) economy and the public.
How does this play, and to whom, and for what effect in action/legislation I cannot know.
But it is another bad case of pilots taking concessions needlessly.

Here is what I would expect alpa to do:
Tell the bankruptcy court, the creditors committee(which has an interest in keeping aloha flying, more pennies on the dollar), and (alleged) mgmt. to pay, NOW, or ground the aircraft by refusing to fly for free. Believe me, the attorneys are not working for free...
There is NOTHING to be gained, and a profession and our QOL to lose when we roll over and allow them to scr** us in the a** like this.
MR.PRATER, MR. DONATELLI(alpa strike chairman), How about it? How about doing something, anything?

 

[saabservant]

delete

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Did you vote in your last LEC election? I say no. Hows that draft resolution coming to slash compensation at the 2008BOD? No but you do meet the requirement for citizen...but you can't even be successful at that...And getting this thing back on track...I submit that pilot groups would be more effective in negotiating their own contracts through seperate inhouse Unions.

fractional pilots are not airline pilots...Fair enough, but can't you learn from them?

So if this is how pilots are.... how you are.... then why do expect the leaders to be different? I'm just giving you the big picture. The different airline pilot groups have their own interests in mind.

I'd rather go down trying to help my fellow pilot...And if I help vote in a contract which benefits me, doesn't that help the other pilots in my group?

Did you vote in your last or any LEC election?

Yes or No?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:
Good job avoiding the question (like I should be suprised).

Of course the individuals should NOT be working for free. I assumed that went without saying, and most people would see that. Obviously I was wrong.

So is there any responsbility there?

YOU, however, asked what we "expect alpa to do." I answered that question. They should, at the very least, have written an article AGAINST working for free. The Aloha pilots are doing it, and alpa should be against it. Do I need to rephrase it a couple of more times for you??

No, your idea was so "off the map" that I didn't bother...

How can an organization write an article AGAINST working for free.... when thier members ARE WORKING FOR FREE!

How about you re-read my response and answer the question.

How about you try and understand what is going on instead of trying to insist that everyone do what you think we should do...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

MR.PRATER, MR. DONATELLI(alpa strike chairman), How about it? How about doing something, anything?

And if the Aloha pilots still work for free?

I am only discussing the possible realities..

 

[CopilotDoug]

Did you vote in your last or any LEC election?

Yes or No?

No Rez (Not under ALPA representation)

 

[saabservant]

I guess I'd hope that our six-figure national officers would have enough influence over an Mec or local council to persuade their members that this is a bad idea...or that they might be able to "order" a halt to this activity. There must be some endorsement by the LEC/MEC involved for this flying, especially if alpa communications is using it....

If they have no such pull, with our own councils/members, how can they have influence over management, congress, TSA, etc?

Again, go to the creditors committee and demand payment, or immediately shut down.

 

[JohnDoe]

How can an organization write an article AGAINST working for free.... when thier members ARE WORKING FOR FREE!

Ummm...pretty darn easy. They come out and say they do not support the notion of members working for no pay. Or, here's a shocker, how about NOT writing an article in support of it!! How is that so difficult? If a few members are doing it how does that mean national cannot come out against it?

And drop the whole aloha pilots "responsibility" arguement. As stated numerous times before, they should not be doing it. But because they are, national should step in and do something.

I am talking about ALPA's responsibility here, not the aloha pilots. To say that alpa has no responsibility here and that it entirely rests on the pilots is absurd. Especially when alpa comes out with an article basically supporting them. What about alpa's responisbility to not write that article supporting them??

Quit deflecting the arguement away from alpa's responsibility. They most certainly have one.

They sure were quick in replacing members of US air's mec. It is sad and unfortunate they sit back, and actually write an article in support of union members working for no pay.

And now they want to increase their dues money by "taxing" their member's 401k contributions. How about they institute pay and job cuts at national like a large majority of their constituents have been taking over the last 7 years.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No Rez (Not under ALPA representation)

Then why all the passion for ALPA issues if you are not a member?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess I'd hope that our six-figure national officers would have enough influence over an Mec or local council to persuade their members that this is a bad idea...or that they might be able to "order" a halt to this activity. There must be some endorsement by the LEC/MEC involved for this flying, especially if alpa communications is using it....

Recall that "ALPA National" is not four Officers. It is all the MEC chairmen and EVPs. Everyone gets vote...

If they have no such pull, with our own councils/members, how can they have influence over management, congress, TSA, etc?

External issues are easier at times to deal with than internal issues...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ummm...pretty darn easy. They come out and say they do not support the notion of members working for no pay. Or, here's a shocker, how about NOT writing an article in support of it!! How is that so difficult? If a few members are doing it how does that mean national cannot come out against it?

Are you nuts?

If ALPA says "we don't support it" and ALPA members do it anyway then ALPA loses all creditibility...

And drop the whole aloha pilots "responsibility" arguement. As stated numerous times before, they should not be doing it. But because they are, national should step in and do something.

Unbelievable.... so ALPA national sould be responsible for Aloha pilots but Aloha pilots should not be for Aloha pilots....

Is that right?

I am talking about ALPA's responsibility here, not the aloha pilots. To say that alpa has no responsibility here and that it entirely rests on the pilots is absurd. Especially when alpa comes out with an article basically supporting them. What about alpa's responisbility to not write that article supporting them??

Unreal.... here is the reason why we are so ineffective.

Quit deflecting the arguement away from alpa's responsibility. They most certainly have one.

Aloha pilots have no responsibility?

They sure were quick in replacing members of US air's mec. It is sad and unfortunate they sit back, and actually write an article in support of union members working for no pay.

And yet Aloha piots do it....

And now they want to increase their dues money by "taxing" their member's 401k contributions. How about they institute pay and job cuts at national like a large majority of their constituents have been taking over the last 7 years.

the 401k issue has been on going since last year...

I think it is really a poor time to proceed with the 401k issue.


ALPA National compensation... if cuts were to be made... how does it happen? Does the President say..."In order to share the pain, I am going to take a pay cut... therefore on my next check subtract X%."

IOW, can the President unilaterally make it so?