The Skinny on the Age 60 Rule

[3BCat]

It could matter less what the origins of the rule are. It has been the rule for 50 years and has been applied equally through the years. You may call it discrimination, but what is interesting about your position is that you would be happy with another equally discriminating age limit as long as it is greater. (that paints you quite selfish) I'm defending parity in the profession. I don't want a windfall that another did not, or will not, get. Pay and benefits have changed, so we need to change them back! Not work longer. Age 65 is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Sure, none of us are entitled to advancement. I can partially agree with that. But retirement attrition has worked pretty darn well for the likes of you! Hasn't it? You just want a break on this because timing happens to work for you. Frankly, a person with the "entitlement" type attitude you have, is the last person I want to keep around.

If you can pass the PC, the Oral, the Recurrent, the Line Check, and the Physical requirements, I say you remain competent to work. I don't care how many birthdays you've had. Is that selfish? I have what I have because I worked hard for it. I'm not pointing my finger at anyone else for my position, and I never will.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I think it matters a whole lot where this rule started, why it started, and why it's still in place. It's a real crime that any pilot has worked an entire career only to be shown the door because of this assinine law.

Why don't you go ahead and get all those pensions restored? No one would argue about that on this board. Go ahead and put the seniority lists back the way they were. You can't make this stuff go away. None of us can right all the wrongs or bring back the past.

Do you want to retire on your terms, or on someone else's? I vote that you get to choose. You don't seem to mind letting others choose for you. The right thing to do is to align pilot retirement with the rest of the world. It will affect my career too, because senior pilots work longer at the top.

You're just afraid to do what's right because you percieve it as a personal setback. That's selfish.

 

[Purple Promisee]

[FONT=tahoma,sans-serif]A farmer went out one day and bought a brand new stud rooster for his chicken coop.... Moral of this story? . Don't mess with the OLD FARTS - age, skill, and treachery will alwaysovercome youth and arrogance![/FONT]

Okay, but you don't have to be a cock about it!
(sorry, but, I had the shot, there was no danger....)

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

ALPA talks out of both sides of its mouth.

For 20-years they want to get rid of age 60. Then they change their minds and want to keep the age-60 rule . All of a sudden 60-year old ALPA members are unsafe they say. What changed. 2nd officer reps at first, now that has developed into fast promotions for the NOW guys.

ALPA is getting much weaker and once Agency Shop is voted out, the Union will fall apart unless it changes.

Agency shop is wrong and when it goes, as it will, the power will be gone.

ALPA's interest should be job protection, first and foremost, not promotion protection.

No wonder our profession is failing, everyone is interested in the NOW instead of the future. Young people just want that jet job now, who cares of the pay. Yes they say, give concessions now I just want to keep my job. Yes I am a coward, it's my life.

Get rid of the senior guys, I want my promotion now. I don't care about the future they say.

It is said, "What goes around, comes around."

Well I do hope these young guys have a chance to be senior so they can see what is really happening. You know what the career is becoming: A lifetime of crap. The yuppies have it now.

Maybe the future will be better, but if so, it will take major changes in attitude.

How can it be that Major airlines are allowed to outsource to an airline that is not only a non-union airline but an (enemy) alter-ego airline like Go-Jet? When things like that are permitted by the union membership at the major………that is the END.

 

[Larcifer]

I spent way to much time in the cockpit at one of the frax operators with 60+ guys and all I can say is "babysitting". Not saying they were bad people but there has to be a cutoff. They all had a severe case of tunnel vision and just didn't do a good job of seeing the big picture. I know there are 60+ guys out there that could fly circles around me but that isn't the norm. I've got 2 very close friends that were checkairman at a major for years before they retired and they will be the first to say that 60 should be a hard number.

Fire at will!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Nice try. But the facts show that the most accidents are occurring by airline pilots in their 20's. You know they guys, the one's who want to join the 4-1-0 Club. The "Hey dude, we're not going to make it" group.

Actually, as a matter of fact, world wide many airline pilots in other countries fly past age 60 and the results are in: they are the safest.

So if safety is the issue, then there should be an age 30-rule. Minimum age for an ATP: 30-years of age.

APA and ALPA want to keep age-60 so they can hopefully be paid full pay for not working after 60. The only thing is that ALPA is too stupid to know what has been lost with US Air's, United's, Delta's and Northwest's bankruptcy. ALPA is in denial of reality and APA is trying to hold on to something that is a lie. Pension funds, just like water, seeks its own level. Say good by to a DB fund. Say hello to providing for your own retirement.

You see, those approaching age-60 just want full pay for full work.

No.............safety is no issue here.

And in a final note:

It is interesting that someone would say that he has to baby-sit the senior pilots. My experience is that the younger pilots always want to make the job too hard, much harder than it is. The most experienced guys just take the job for what it is, easy. It may look like they are coasting on your efforts, because they are, just watching all that extra work being done when there is no need for such wasted effort or concern.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I spent way to much time in the cockpit at one of the frax operators with 60+ guys and all I can say is "babysitting".
Fire at will!

Maybe the guy has been flying the same airplane the last 10 years of his career in the same airline environment to the same 10 -15 cities and now he has to adapt to something entirely foreign. Of course, the understanding of how people work comes with maturity and I'm sure old gramps can see right through you.

 

[Larcifer]

I understand now, the constant badgering spewing forth from my mouth to keep from getting violated or bending metal was all a test. The 4 ft of wing that was dragged through the chain link fence because my advice to slow down wasn't heeded due to my youthful 40 yr old ignorance. And the one individual who was a 25yr airline veteran that liked to steer with the tiller at 120kts. That one must be a secret only let out to those over 60 with vast amounts of experience and wisdom. Or one of my favorites, the one 37 yr . veteran that was scared to death of weather but wanted to flying through a thunderstorm sitting at the marker because he wouldn't look at the radar or out the window. I'm not saying that there isn't a learning curve on the other end either but at least the one with the experience has his wits about him with the current regs. I've been sling'n hash at this job long enough to be thankful a monkey can do it so we really don't have to worry about much except days off. Since decent pay and benefits are a thing of the past.

I have no disrespect for pilots that are 60+ but we have to draw the line somewhere, and that's all I've got to say about that.

Here's to 60 and sipping cocktails on the beach!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

60 and sipping cocktails on the beach sounds OK but I think food on the table and fuel in the furnace is much more important. To say nothing of health care insurance, an education for your kid and high speed dsl.

Where do you think the money will come from for all those cocktails on the beach? There just aren't many jobs for 60-year old ex-airline pilots. So if you're not fortunate enough to have a big 401k you're not going to be sipping those cocktails in Shang-gra-la. I'm sorry to have to provide this bad news.

So you see the good news is that if the law changes then you'll be able to fly untill you just can't get up anymore, except with stimulation of some kind. For the most part you'll be able to just quit when you want, either you're worn out or you have saved big bucks for those cocktails.

Personally, I always wanted to take that Goldwing trip to Alaska.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

For every story about a 60ish pilot that cnnot do the job, anyone can easily post an example of someone in their 20's, 30's, or 40's that cannot find their butt with both hands. Often, the problem in this business is that no one has the balls to go to a chief pilot when someone cannot do their job. Sometimes it is management that doesn't have it ttake care of a problem that they know about.

 

[Snapshot]

Doesn't matter how you try to cut it, EVERY FO in America got their job because someone had to retire. EVERY CA in America got their upgrade because someone had to retire.

Well, it might be possible that your first job was when you hired on as a captain at an upstart that didn't fail, but that's not too likely. Please don't try to go off on expansions and whatnot. There are always guys at the top who have to go no matter how many A/C are delivered.

You've all got yours, now you want mine too?

 

[Bringupthebird]

The problem doesn't seem tied to age. Boneheads are boneheads at any age.

 

[Bringupthebird]

If there is such widespread support for retaining a retirement age of 60 why doesn't ALPA use that as bargaining leverage at contract time? Give the airlines an Age 60 retirement in exchange for some benefit to the junior guys. I mean since there is such uniform support...

Why hide behind the FAA and their rules? If you want to vote the old farts off the island, get the votes at your airline and do it.

 

[Snapshot]

Becuase management is for it.

Another reason to be suspect.

 

[Hamburger]

I see the age 60 rule not only as pure age discrimination but it is also in a sense socialism, taking from those who have earned their seniority and giving it to those who do have not. What one earns does not belong to others. Pilots should expect to gain seniority not at the expense of others but as a result of their hard work, fortunes and success gained within the company they work for, i.e. expansion and natural attrition. We earn our profession and our seniority; it is in a sense our property. The state must not deprive anyone of life, liberty, or property, without due process. The FAA’s age 60 rule deprives qualified pilots of just that.

Well played Klako! Implying that only a Commie would want to keep the playing field even. I'm sure there's work for a spinmeister like you at Fox News when you retire, no worries.

Of course, using your logic, the guys being forced to retire now (you?) did NOT earn their seniority. They got it not from hard work, but at the expense of the guys before them that had to retire. So does that make you a socialist for accepting that job or upgrade? Every pilot alive has expected to gain seniority based on mandatory retirements, you included.

Also, like it or not, Congressional legislation is pretty much the definition of due process.

 

[Hamburger]

As a matter of fact........

Unless you refused to take a new hire or upgrade class date as a Moral stand against the fairness of the 60 rule, you are a hypocrite. Plain and simple. You can boo hoo about it all day long, but when you had the opportunity to put your money where your mouth is, you put the money in your pocket.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut: You are having difficulty staying with me my friend. I've never discussed my experience, you assumed and you know what that makes you and me. I have been around this industry long enough to say that NOTHING is a garuntee. My personal belief is that I am not owed anything and neither are you. You seem to feel you are owed everything, standard entitlement crowd. What I said was that if you don't move up based on skill and knowledge then all you have left is seniority. Don't take seniority away then. You want seniority to be capped for all eternity. I call foul! You want to be advanced based on time but then want to make sure people don't get too much time. You are speaking out of both side of your mouth like most liberal minded fools. Now on to the idea of a democratic vote. Sounds good to me as long as the result is lawful. You see we are not a democracy. We are a government of laws. No one is above the law, not even 51%. You want the law changed use your represenative. You want the law to stay the same, use your represenative. We are democratic republic and that's how it works. Sorry we had to go to civics 101. The law as it stands says retire at 60, I will be asking my rep to repeal that rule. I'm not willing to sit in the past because you have an ancient view. Look, the law will change sooner or later. I would prefer sooner just in case I can make it to 60+ and still have a marketable skill. What was the average life span of people 50 years ago? I know it wasn't close to 80 as it is now. Final statement: Flopgut get off the government socialized plan and think for yourself. I'm sure your mind will never change and mine wont either. Good luck in your career; hope you made good choices. I'd be happy to get your gear when your over 60.

I am having a hard time keeping up with you. The behavior you decry and most emphatically proclaim is not yours, is in fact, exactly what you are. Pretty standard character deficiency of the pseudo-conservative systemite crowd. You want government out of the decision...but NOT until after a 50 year old rule gets changed to your benefit. This IS a form of welfare. If you want this rule changed it either means you have not saved for yourself, or don't plan to. You want the government to intervene and create a welfare like device to help you.

ALPA has run a comprehensive survey on this issue. It would be nice to move on to other issues. In this low point we need to be discussing upside protection. Things like the UAL bond and stock protections should be our focus, not age 60! Age 65 is not an upside protection. Simply working longer is just that-working longer. We need to focus on monetary gains.

 

[Going2Baja]

Quick question here guys - Does DAL have a provision for guys over 60 to continue flying or working past age 60? One of my fellow employees swears 100% his dad can continue past 60. My understanding is that nothing has changed currently but may in the future.

I did skim this thread but with 295 posts just asking is a lot easier - Thanks.

Baja.

 

[Flopgut]

Quick question here guys - Does DAL have a provision for guys over 60 to continue flying or working past age 60? One of my fellow employees swears 100% his dad can continue past 60. My understanding is that nothing has changed currently but may in the future.

I did skim this thread but with 295 posts just asking is a lot easier - Thanks.

Baja.

They could work past retirement, but not past 60. It was a deal for early retirees so they could staff the airline. It had a lot of restrictions.

 

[turn&pull]

Our Union website has an upgrade projector that uses future hiring and aircraft aquisitions to forcast upgrade date.

I did the projector for both age 60 and 65 mandatory retirement. The difference... I would upgrade 1yr and 10months later with an age 65 retirement.

I would rather have 5 years of 200+ income at the end of my career and not have to support myself off my retirement for those years than to get an extra 80-100 a year for a yr and 10mnths.

Of course ideally I would upgrade to captain and then they would change the law but for me, I think it needs to be changed.

 

[Hamburger]

If there's one thing you can absoluely take to the bank in this industry, it's hiring and aircraft acquisition projections.

That and pilot contracts......Ten-year codeshare agreements........No-furlough clauses........Passengers will pay more for amenities...........Management will earn their pay by turning around the company...........