"The New ATA"

[Wiskey Driver]

Sorry but I don't buy the analogy. A no cash deal will essentially merge our company into yours. Personally I think it'll be good for both sides in the end as it will be a formidable LCC. No I am not owed anything but under the above scenario, yes, I expect to get more than a staple job. Part of the reason I believe that way is because most of what I've heard from AWA pilots has been positive and leaves me optimistic for a fair and equitable deal.

Also -- is it possible that "resident in Chicago" is legal speak for based in Chicago ??

I have sifted through 4 pages of what is essentially my Dik is bigger than your Dik!!! (Airtran vs AWA) this is non sense. What happens to the employees comes LAST in this fight. First and formost, what will be considered are those that have the most to lose and folks that ain't pilots. The ones that have the most to lose are the creditors ie Boeing, ATSB, banks, fuel companies etc... Sure they would like to see you employed but if it comes down to you being employed vs someone assuming BIG debt. Do I really need to state the obvious???? We were asked here at AWA to send in feed back on what we would like to see out of this deal with regards to intergration. Now I speak for no one but myself but WHAT I HAVE BEEN HEARING is mostly staple'em. Without going into specifics, I don't fully agree with a full on staple not because one carrier owes them anything but because some won't be able to survive the start over process. I do feel that all the ATA f/o's should be placed on the bottom of our list for nothing more than to protect the career expectations of our current crews. In any case these are only wants and wishes and non of us on this forum will make any difference to the creditor, they are the BIG PICTURE.

My prayers are with my brothers and sisters of ATA and I hope this thing works out some kinda way with minimal adverse effect!!

WD.

 

[ATA73Pilot]

...but WHAT I HAVE BEEN HEARING is mostly staple'em.

I do feel that all the ATA f/o's should be placed on the bottom of our list for nothing more than to protect the career expectations of our current crews.
WD.

I keep hearing that Disney Lion King song playing in the background..."Can You Feel The Love Tonight?!"

Just curious why you feel our Captains are deserving of an integrated option while you relegate all the FO's to the bottom in a staple situation?

Are FO's career expectations somehow less important than our Captains?

 

[CaptSeth]

I wouldn't get too upset about the whole thing. There's enough case law and precedent to go around should it come down to it.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I keep hearing that Disney Lion King song playing in the background..."Can You Feel The Love Tonight?!"

Just curious why you feel our Captains are deserving of an integrated option while you relegate all the FO's to the bottom in a staple situation?

Are FO's career expectations somehow less important than our Captains?

Since you asked and only for that reason will I answer. I said I would not get into the full details but I was no implying that all your captains get intergrated only a percentage!!! You see, if you were to look at this from a career expectation stand point, just what is your career expectation as of today??? Not too good is it? So therefore why should the members of this carrier who's expectation are far better be penalized? Is this fair? I don't really have the answer to that and I sure no one really does, most will just speak out about what they want and not reality.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I wouldn't get too upset about the whole thing. There's enough case law and precedent to go around should it come down to it.

CaptSeth,

You may in fact be correct on that point, but your point also changes the game a little. That comment brings another dog to this fight, which in turn brings yet another. Those two are attorneys and money!!! You see good lawyers always earn their keep by destroying precedents and at this point does ATA have the financial resources or should I say the union to fight a battle such as this and if so what would really be the overall gain???

WD.

 

[CaptSeth]

The answers are yes, and obviously, otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the contract that we enjoy. As to the third, not as much if there will be a legal battle, so it behooves everyone involved that cool heads should prevail, else scumsucking attorneys will get too much money, again.

Of course, there's no deal on the table yet anyway, so we may be arguing about nothing. I'll get back to you on Dec. 16 though.

As far as the APA style career-expectations argument, my career expectations are just fine with the current deal on the table, so, no, I don't need to be merged with AWA to be happy. It will just be a better deal for everyone. What are your career expectations? As of right now, you'll be doing layovers in CVG for the rest of your natural life. If you are lucky, and there is an equitable merger with ATA, you might get to do some international and Hawaii - something good to look forward to.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

As far as the APA style career-expectations argument, my career expectations are just fine with the current deal on the table, so, no, I don't need to be merged with AWA to be happy. It will just be a better deal for everyone. What are your career expectations? As of right now, you'll be doing layovers in CVG for the rest of your natural life. If you are lucky, and there is an equitable merger with ATA, you might get to do some international and Hawaii - something good to look forward to.

I meant no dis-respect with the career expectation comment, mine was merely to point out the obvious that ATA is in deep trouble thus career expectations with them are poor and without some sort of bail out, you may be looking at chap 7 soon. Now for your next point yeah CVG layovers we do but keep in mind that we ain't regional carrier and we do trips to three different countries. Mexico, Canada and my favorite Costa Rica!!!! We have already announced Hawaii for next spring so really what other destination would you bring??

WD.

 

[Boogenagen]

The AWA deal is the only one that makes any sense. It allows ATA to continue business as usual without any major changes or disruptions. One would think that would be most favorable to the creditors and judge. Who trusts ATA management to be able to run a sucessful operation out of Indy ? You gotta be kidding. I think George just took the Airtran deal to keep the company running through bankruptcy. Airtran will get there 3 mil. deal breaker fee and AWA ATA will merge.

As far as pilot integration who knows. I dont think any ATA captains will lose there seats. ATA makes AWA a much stronger more formidable operation. The employees of ATA are a big part of the deal. If I recall AWA has had financial problems in the past. They at current are not that stong. Without ATA who knows what the future holds for them, they need ATA and as such ATA should get there due credit. They both need each other now. Pilots wont make the decision of integration anyway. It will no doubt be mediated. All the pilots have to do is live with the decision. Both pilot groups need eachother more than they think in todays economy. Of course I could be dead wrong. Either way we will see soon.

 

[CaptSeth]

We have a signed deal with Airtran, unfortunately the bottom half of our list will be furloughed and there will be downgrades for a while, however we would retain our Hawaii, Military charter (I just got back from Europe and points east), and IND hub, along with the MDW Mexico and Caribbean flying. I was under the impression that AWA's 757 inflight shutdown rate will preclude ETOPS until 2006, but perhaps there's another code share deal in the works.

 

[Cactus73]

Now for your next point yeah CVG layovers we do
WD.

As for as a I know we don't serve CVG. I think it would make a great market for us from PHX and LAS, but what do I know?

We have a signed deal with Airtran, unfortunately the bottom half of our list will be furloughed and there will be downgrades for a while, however we would retain our Hawaii, Military charter (I just got back from Europe and points east), and IND hub, along with the MDW Mexico and Caribbean flying. I was under the impression that AWA's 757 inflight shutdown rate will preclude ETOPS until 2006, but perhaps there's another code share deal in the works.

Your signed deal with Airtran doesn't mean much. Well actually, it is worth almost $3 million to ATA, but other than that it is not really a deal.

The court is the only one that can approve deals. The court will decide which deal gets signed. As I stated earlier, ATA management is pushing the AAI deal because it is what is in their best interest. They want to keep their jobs and their egos intact. Merging with AWA or anyone else will mean they are all out of jobs. They are putting out press releases to make everyone think that this is a done deal. Maybe they think their spin will influence the court? Who knows?

As for our 757 shutdown rate...I think you hit the nail on the head. This is more reason for AWA to push for a merger. Though the A319's will also be part of the ETOPS program from what I understand (which isn't much).

I think talking about seniority integration is pointless. We have little control over it and our opinions will just get people all worked up for no reason.

I'm having enough heart-ache right now watching the Cardinals get slaughtered by Carolina.

 

[FDJ2]

In the event that the final deal involves some sort of merger between AWA and ATA, and both pilot groups have ALPA contracts which require a list integration, the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy would most likely control the process from the Policy Initiation Date to the end of Arbitration if need be. These proceedings would be run by ALPA and you can find all the details you could ever care to learn in the ALPA Administrative Manual under the 'Merger and Fragmentation" section.

The ALPA merger and fragmentation policy stipulates the following goals, in no particular order.

1. Preserve jobs

2. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other

3. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standards of living

4. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status

5. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectation.

I very much doubt that you will see a staple of the ATA list to the AWA list, since that would run contrary to all five of the goals stipulated in ALPA policy, which controls the process. Neither will you probably see a DOH integration.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

As for as a I know we don't serve CVG. I think it would make a great market for us from PHX and LAS, but what do I know? QUOTE]

Hey C73,

I was being somewhat facetious regarding CVG!!! I guess in making my point that we do go beyond the boundries of the United States it lost it's humor...

WD.

 

[Boogenagen]

I agree. Both groups should be happy if it does happen. It will probably mean a lot better job security for everyone. Cmon guys think about it. Win Win... we will see.

 

[Cactus73]

Hey C73,

I was being somewhat facetious regarding CVG!!! I guess in making my point that we do go beyond the boundries of the United States it lost it's humor...

WD.

No problem man. I just wished we did serve CVG because I think we could make $$$ there. DL has a monopoly on the place.
I got your point on the international stuff. I'm in MEX around Christmas time so we definitely cross the borders.

 

[CMonBoard]

The AWA deal is the only one that makes any sense. .... I think George just took the Airtran deal to keep the company running through bankruptcy. Airtran will get there 3 mil. deal breaker fee and AWA ATA will merge.

yes he did, but what I see happening, like it or not, is, the airtran deal going through. airtran will end up hiring all the pilots that it can because it NEEDS them, possibly giving them longevity pay, but no more, at the bottom of the list. some might even be senior to others at ATA because they end up jumping ship early.

george gets to keep his portion of the airline and gets a codeshare agreement. the creditors will get something going forward, but not much.

why would the bankruptcy judge award something to AWA w/o a bunch of cash? assuming debt is nothing. stop looking at this like airline pilots and start looking at it like business people. Indy gets something, chicago gets something, george gets something. the employees get something, but not much.

...unless someone comes in and offers $200 million in cash...

george wants something from this and at first glance (we'll know more by the 10th) he doesn't get anything with the other "offers".

stay tuned.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

No problem man. I just wished we did serve CVG because I think we could make $$$ there. DL has a monopoly on the place.
I got your point on the international stuff. I'm in MEX around Christmas time so we definitely cross the borders.

Mexico during xmas me too. I will be in Cun...

WD.

 

[mt2]

Ah, but this isn't about what George wants. It's about all those people who are owed lots of $$. And if AWA comes in with a deal to assume lots of that debt it's better than the AAI deal which pays $$ to only a select few.

 

[Boogenagen]

yes he did, but what I see happening, like it or not, is, the airtran deal going through. airtran will end up hiring all the pilots that it can because it NEEDS them, possibly giving them longevity pay, but no more, at the bottom of the list. some might even be senior to others at ATA because they end up jumping ship early.

george gets to keep his portion of the airline and gets a codeshare agreement. the creditors will get something going forward, but not much.

why would the bankruptcy judge award something to AWA w/o a bunch of cash? assuming debt is nothing. stop looking at this like airline pilots and start looking at it like business people. Indy gets something, chicago gets something, george gets something. the employees get something, but not much.

...unless someone comes in and offers $200 million in cash...

george wants something from this and at first glance (we'll know more by the 10th) he doesn't get anything with the other "offers".

stay tuned.

Assuming debt is nothing ? I'm not sure about that. You go into bankruptcy cause you cant pay your debt. Assuming debt is everything. It ensures that the creditors get paid which is what the judge is responsible for. This deal is largely up to creditors. George has no say at this point. The judge is responsible for taking the deal that is in the best interest of the creditors. It would make sense that the creditors would want the best deal that assures them of getting the money owed to them. Airtran among others want gates. Amwest wants the whole ball of wax employees and all. In that deal everyone is happy except for George and his friends. And who got ATA into trouble in the first place ?? Does anyone think the half hearted attempt at an Indy hub is actually gonna work. He has tons of creditors and no money. Do creditors have faith in that plan ? I dont know but I doubt it. I would imagine they have a lot more faith in an Amwest merger than a torn up retreat to Indy where ATA has always said the customer base is not there. What changed now ? Either way December will be an interesting month. Best of luck to all involved.

 

[TWA Dude]

As I've written before, the expression "career expectations" is meaningless. It's just an excuse for one pilot group to take advantage of another. I know ATA is in Chap 11 but I don't believe that should be a weapon used against them. Apparently I'm in the minority here which was confirmed by a short conversation with a union rep in the crew room. In other words, my opinion probably won't matter. To my ATA colleagues, if a merger (acquisition, or whatever, since it doesn't matter) with AWA goes down you'd do well to expect the worst and hope for the best. I also pray that my AWA colleagues (not referring to anyone posting here) show y'all more respect that what APA showed TWA.

 

[ATA73Pilot]

As I've written before, the expression "career expectations" is meaningless. It's just an excuse for one pilot group to take advantage of another. I know ATA is in Chap 11 but I don't believe that should be a weapon used against them. Apparently I'm in the minority here which was confirmed by a short conversation with a union rep in the crew room. In other words, my opinion probably won't matter. To my ATA colleagues, if a merger (acquisition, or whatever, since it doesn't matter) with AWA goes down you'd do well to expect the worst and hope for the best. I also pray that my AWA colleagues (not referring to anyone posting here) show y'all more respect that what APA showed TWA.

Let me be the first one to buy you a beer on some future overnight. It takes someone who has experienced this nasty process firsthand to bring a little insight to the process.

Everyone here is too busy trying to protect what they feel is theirs. I have been through one merger (ALPA Regionals) in my past and it was done mostly through DOH and the ALPA policy stipulations. The majority of pilots we're OK with that and all of our "career expectations" remaind essentially intact.

My belief all along is that any merger of two ALPA airlines should be conducted so as to produce a seniority list that mainains your relative position intact.

ie. If I was in the 20% on the Captain's list before, then I maintained that same precentage relative to the new list.

As such your "Career Expectations" and your current QOL remain intact.