The NetJets Scab list threat...

[h25b]

Just remember this if you think of becoming a SCAB.

Do you want your family and friends to remember you as a SCAB long after your gone?


IE..., your Urn up on the Mantle.
Grandson: Mom why was my Grandpa a SCAB?

The funniest post I've seen yet...

Thanks, I can't decide between laughing or puking. Talk about having a flare for the dramatic. Get a life dude.

"Mom... Why was grandpa such an idiot to fly for NetJets for $28,000 / yr and then try to screw other pilots making a decent wage..." might be a more appropriate (and likely) question.

 

[buttercup]

You know, as I recall, didn't we all (MOST, I should say) get involved with flying because it is fun? I think all you miserable types should go get desk jobs and continue to be miserable, but at least you would make some real money for a change. Then I could take your seat in the 'front office' and do it with a smile.

Oh wait, flying is fun, right?

I'm going to go back to flying my nice Pilatus around and having some FUN!

Life is way too short to get wrapped up in all of this BS. http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon27.gif

That's great!! Ask the men with families if FUN puts dinner on the table and provides a comfortable living if you live in a higher cost of living area.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Just remember this if you think of becoming a SCAB.

Do you want your family and friends to remember you as a SCAB long after your gone?


IE..., your Urn up on the Mantle.
Grandson: Mom why was my Grandpa a SCAB?

Scabs are people who work for 1/3 the wages their fellow "brothers" work for.

 

[realityman]

I guess I'm still not seeing the big deal about this single carrier thing. First, I don't really see what advantage we, at NJA, would gain by merging NJA and NJI. Maybe some pilots here would like a chance to fly the big G's, but we've already got plenty of big planes, probably with more coming in the future, so why push it? Any merger would almost definitely include fence agreements so no current NJI pilots would be pushed out of their spots. Also, as much as some NJA pilots like to believe the NJI guys would be stapled onto the bottom of our seniority list, it's highly unlikely to happen that way. From a legal standpoint there WILL be some kind of date-of-hire merge, which would result in quite a few of our pilots being pushed backwards (including some of the more senior guys such as myself), meaning that a lot of our pilots who would be hoping to have a shot at the G's may not get it, but many of the NJI guys would have a shot at, say, the BBJ. And, obviously, there would end up being a certain amount of, uh, 'friction' between the pilots groups, as being witnessed here on this board. Just seems like a lot of aggravation for little gain. But what do I know? I'm a pretty laid back guy who just wants to do my job and go home at the end of my tour.

But for the NJI guys, I'm wondering what it is you're worried about. A merger would almost certainly not result in a reduction in your wages. You wouldn't lose your current positions in the G's. And while a lot of you may not care, I'll bet there are at least a few of you who'd like a chance to fly something like the BBJ, or maybe the Flacon 7X if we were to get something like that. Your working conditions wouldn't change much, except that you would now be operating under a legally-binding set of work rules (ie. the CBA). After all, without an actual contract, what you currently have is a set of 'guidelines' that NJI can change or alter or violate any time they feel like it to get the job done. Before you start saying it doesn't happen, save your breath. I have friends flying there who have told me plenty of stories about 18-hour duty days, involuntary extensions to tours, and others. That doesn't mean they're not happy, I'm just saying that NJI can change things on you whenever they feel like it. Maybe you don't like unions? Okay fine, but what do you guys do if you decide your whole payscale needs to be adjusted upwards because, hey,the cost of living DOES go up every year. Go and ask the company nicely? I'm not a big fan of unions either, but it hasn't turned out to be such a bad thing. If NJA violates our work rules, I get compensated. So, what's the worst thing about a merger?

Finally, both sides can argue their points all they want. Just keep in mind that our union has A LOT on their plate right now. We're fighting a huge battle, with a well-entrenched and financed company. We MUST pick our battles carefully, if for no other reason than we simply don't have the resources to fight about every tiddly little thing that comes along. Only so much money, man-power, and time. So, if we've decided to fight for single-carrier status, then they must be convinced we have a strong case. Otherwise, they'd be putting our resources to better use. Ultimately, a judge will make the decision, but based on what I just said, I too believe we have a good shot at getting single-carrier status. Our union simply wouldn't go after this if our chances were slim. Again, I'm just not sure WHY we want single-carrier status. But I don't think it would be the horrible thing that the NJI guys seem convinced it would be.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Reality,

You got it right. But I will answer your question.

The reason for the single carrier is that NJI flies from home. NJA wants us all do move to DAL TEB LAX CMH and MCO.

The want to cap your pay at 81K for bottom 70 percent of Captains and thats after 10 years of Sservice. But they want to pay G drivers market wages. Imagine a TA proposal that came across with G drivers getting to fly from home and paid well ... and then all the rest of us forced to RCAs and paid LOW.

That dog won't hunt.

 

[G4dude]

Reality Man says:
But for the NJI guys, I'm wondering what it is you're worried about. A merger would almost certainly not result in a reduction in your wages. You wouldn't lose your current positions in the G's. And while a lot of you may not care, I'll bet there are at least a few of you who'd like a chance to fly something like the BBJ, or maybe the Flacon 7X if we were to get something like that. Your working conditions wouldn't change much, except that you would now be operating under a legally-binding set of work rules (ie. the CBA). After all, without an actual contract, what you currently have is a set of 'guidelines' that NJI can change or alter or violate any time they feel like it to get the job done. Before you start saying it doesn't happen, save your breath. I have friends flying there who have told me plenty of stories about 18-hour duty days, involuntary extensions to tours, and others. That doesn't mean they're not happy, I'm just saying that NJI can change things on you whenever they feel like it. Maybe you don't like unions? Okay fine, but what do you guys do if you decide your whole payscale needs to be adjusted upwards because, hey,the cost of living DOES go up every year. Go and ask the company nicely? I'm not a big fan of unions either, but it hasn't turned out to be such a bad thing. If NJA violates our work rules, I get compensated. So, what's the worst thing about a merger?
________________________________________________________________
Here is the answer: We at NJI HATE unions. Some of us were part of one in the past, and the rest of us avoid them like the Plague. We watch the disgraceful behavior of a few union guys at NJA, and realize that they would be fired instantly, and deservely so, if they behaved that way on the non-union side of the fence. We hear the customers tell us how much they dislike the attitudes of the NJA guys, and it makes us sick. We hear the militant guys intimidate the more moderate ones, and it makes us angry. Unions eat their employers, slowly but surely. We want Netjets to prosper for a long time, and know for a fact we are MUCH more productive that the union guys. Our management communicates with us very well, and us with them. We do NOT want or need any entity representing our interests to management. We do NOT want a union forced on us, and will participate enthusiastically in whatever it takes to keep NJA customers happy if there is a strike.
Wow! I feel so much better getting that off my chest. Thanks for listening!

 

[Diesel]

you talk about how we aren't as productive as you. How about all the times i hear when the flight managers that are used to working the Gwhiz boys that they can't believe we're not calling in tired after one leg. Hell I've got 3 more to go and we're doing the same trips.

Oh yeah I've got all the same stories about the nji guys. Bitching on the crew van on the way to teb ES that they had to to do two legs. MIA-PBI-TEB. All I'm thinking to myself is heck we did that before 10am. Then added another 2 legs to that.

We've all got bad apples. I'm not going to base my whole perception of NJI on your bad apples. It seems though that you have about us.

 

[gunfyter]

you can thank the management you love so much in Woodbridge for forcing this issue. All they have to do is treat us the same as they do NJI and NJE. Very Simple.

 

[G4dude]

you talk about how we aren't as productive as you. How about all the times i hear when the flight managers that are used to working the Gwhiz boys that they can't believe we're not calling in tired after one leg. Hell I've got 3 more to go and we're doing the same trips.

Oh yeah I've got all the same stories about the nji guys. Bitching on the crew van on the way to teb ES that they had to to do two legs. MIA-PBI-TEB. All I'm thinking to myself is heck we did that before 10am. Then added another 2 legs to that.
We've all got bad apples. I'm not going to base my whole perception of NJI on your bad apples. It seems though that you have about us.

________________________________________________________________
Sorry if I gave that impression! Actually, what steams us the most is the way the militant pilots intimidate the moderate ones when the subject of the strike comes up. We find the majority of NJA pilots to be very professional and pleasant. However, unions tend to penalize the conservative, hard working members, and reward the less productive, angry ones, in our opinion.

 

[G4dude]

you can thank the management you love so much in Woodbridge for forcing this issue. All they have to do is treat us the same as they do NJI and NJE. Very Simple.

__________________________________________________________________

It is my belief that if NJA would behave the way we do, they would be treated the way we are. However, I have been known to be wrong, but never without opinions!
By the way, I half expected some very fiery responses to my little message, and appreciate the civility with which I have been treated so far on this site. Especially given the highly emotional subject I usually weigh in on, namely unions.

 

[Jolimon]

Why do you guys trust the teamsters so much? It doesn't sound like they are fighting for your best interests.

 

[G4dude]

Why do you guys trust the teamsters so much? It doesn't sound like they are fighting for your best interests.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[El Chupacabra]

We ARE the teamsters. We trust US.

 

[Jolimon]

What? You must be a Union Rep. Leading us into the no job catagory

 

[G4dude]

We ARE the teamsters. We trust US.

Unions lie to their members. They mismanage the pension funds, lie during negotiations, use current conflicts to extract revenge against old adversaries at the expense of the membership (see EAL/Lorenzo struggle), and the Teamsters are the WORST. I cannot imagine a union less likely to get you guys a good deal than the Teamsters.

 

[El Chupacabra]

What? You must be a Union Rep. Leading us into the no job catagory

As long as you wind up with no job it will be all worth it. I can see why you are worried. You can't even spell.

 

[AA717driver]

Gunfyter--The company HAS to treat the NJA people strictly by the letter of the CBA. If they don't it establishes "past practice" and THAT becomes the baseline when an issue comes before an arbitrator.

That is the unfortunate reality of life under a contract.

At NJI, if a scheduler cuts someone some slack because they helped out scheduling before, it's ok. No one can bring it up in arbitration and use it against the scheduler or the company.

With a union carrier, everyone walks around on pins and needles. You never know when you will violate the CBA or the company will TRY to violate it to see if it gets by someone and establishes "past practice" and can be used in the future.

Having been in that environment for 17 years, it sucks. Free at last, free at last...TC

 

[suen1843]

Unions lie to their members. They mismanage the pension funds, lie during negotiations, use current conflicts to extract revenge against old adversaries at the expense of the membership (see EAL/Lorenzo struggle), and the Teamsters are the WORST. I cannot imagine a union less likely to get you guys a good deal than the Teamsters.

Put me near the top of the list for not caring for unions, but G4 I think you are a little off base here. From what I have read on all the various threads, and on the ASAP board, the Netjets group is doing its own thing. Yes, they are part of the Teamsters but all the negotiating in progress is exclusively being done by their own MEC (who are all NJ pilots).
Having a local which is not associated with a bigger group (ie, Teamsters, IBEW, MEBA, etc etc etc) is almost impossible. For them to go it on their own would require mega-months of time....time they do not have.
Leaving the single-carrier issue aside, you should be supporting these pilots. Yes..they are way underpaid. Yes...they didn't get a very good T/A late last year. Yess....on and on. But, they are trying to do something about it. Take away the radical voices of NJA (and they are very few but very vocal) and you have a great bunch of guys who just want to make a decent living while doing something we all love to do...fly the airplanes.
If you had seen some of the info on the ASAP board, you would know that their MEC is not giving them any firm info and is not lying to them. That's one of the big differences between this MEC and the past bunch. They are doing their best to be realistic in their info to the members. Yeah, yeah, I know that the vocal, radical minority take the smallest bit of info and inflate it to "pie in the sky" proportions. It makes for heated conversations and debates among the rank and file, but I think most of them are realistic enough to know the fat lady ain't singing yet.

 

[AA717driver]

Reality,

You got it right. But I will answer your question.

The reason for the single carrier is that NJI flies from home. NJA wants us all do move to DAL TEB LAX CMH and MCO.

The want to cap your pay at 81K for bottom 70 percent of Captains and thats after 10 years of Sservice. But they want to pay G drivers market wages. Imagine a TA proposal that came across with G drivers getting to fly from home and paid well ... and then all the rest of us forced to RCAs and paid LOW.

That dog won't hunt.

El Chupacabra--That's why I'm pi$$ed about the whole SC thing. NJA won't GAIN all those things if you are successful with the filing. They will lose them AND you will STILL have to negotiate them in the new contract.

AND you will have dragged a whole bunch of people into your company who are unwilling participants who will very quickly become WILLING participants in a struggle for control of your MEC. BTDT.

Your dog is sniffing up the wrong tree...TC

 

[x402]

El Chupacabra--That's why I'm pi$$ed about the whole SC thing. NJA won't GAIN all those things if you are successful with the filing. They will lose them AND you will STILL have to negotiate them in the new contract.

AND you will have dragged a whole bunch of people into your company who are unwilling participants who will very quickly become WILLING participants in a struggle for control of your MEC. BTDT.

Your dog is sniffing up the wrong tree...TC

No, we will have brought the planes and crew members that Santuli has been using against us into the fold. We wish the G-Wizz guys no harm or have any hard feelings. Fight for control of the next MEC election, that's what elections are for. That's why we have serious MEC members instead of the puppets from the last local.