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The NetJets Scab list threat...

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Rusty,

Rather than beating your chest on a message board, you should brush up on the single carrier protections built into the Railway Labor Act. Regardless if you and your fellow stooges want a union or not, it's coming your way. You're going to be placed on the NJA seniority list. The only question left is whether you get placed on it through Netjets negotiations with the teamsters or via a judge ordering it. I'd normally suggest the negotiation route but Santulli might just offer you guys up in sacrifice for something he doesn't want to give up. Good career move either way. Can you say "Roger - Gear Up"?
 
Starman said:
Rusty,

Rather than beating your chest on a message board, you should brush up on the single carrier protections built into the Railway Labor Act. Regardless if you and your fellow stooges want a union or not, it's coming your way. You're going to be placed on the NJA seniority list. The only question left is whether you get placed on it through Netjets negotiations with the teamsters or via a judge ordering it. I'd normally suggest the negotiation route but Santulli might just offer you guys up in sacrifice for something he doesn't want to give up. Good career move either way. Can you say "Roger - Gear Up"?

Oh boy, now its going to get ugly!
 
http://www.netjets.com/Fleet/Aircraft_Details.asp

Yeah nothing like the same company at all. Completely different. They have nothing to do with one another.

The union has no more right to your airplanes than they do to some strange company called "NetJets Large Aircraft Company".

Sarcasm off now. If its a Netjets fractional airplane and its US registered its ours. Or will be shortly.
 
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Actually, Management saved a space for the G-IV's in the TA that failed last Fall. There were 6 pay categories. Category V was reserved for the G's. They insisted on this and we had nothing to do with it. II, III, IV, and VI included the aircraft we operate now and category I was for VLJ's which may be operated in the future.

My suspicion is that it is the plan of management to merge the companies. The union is falling for the trick of suing for single carrier thereby achieving management's goals and giving them deniability to the fact that this is what they wanted anyway.

Oh and I forgot... they also had this merger language with seniority integration they insisted on putting in the TA.
 
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I think this thread should probably be allowed to die a semi-peaceful death, while it still can.
Here's the long and short of it: What we're doing at Netjets has never been done before. Can anyone remember or name a time when a group of pilots, flying private jets, considered or actually went on strike? This is virgin territory. And it's outcome could set precedent for the entire industry (well, for fractionals, and possibly charters. Probably doesn't mean much to pure corporate operators).
Whether you like NJA or hate it, or are somewhere in between, wouldn't it be nice to see a section of the industry set the bar HIGHER, rather than the direction it's been going for most of the rest of flying? It seems like most of you are routing for the pilots at NJA, and I for one am grateful for the support from folks outside the fractionals.
As for the scab thing, which is what this thread started about, please don't let the attitudes of a few overly emotional pilots make you think that's how ALL NJA pilots feel. As I mentioned before, this is brand new territory we're exploring here. Our union leadership has in no way shape or form, told us who or what would constitute a scab or scabbing. I think I can say, with at least some confidence, that charter operators who fly our clients in the event of a strike would NOT be labeled as scabs. It just doesn't fit the definition. Unless you actually came in and flew our planes. Also, I flew for a charter operator for many years. And I can tell you beyond a doubt that I can't remember a single flight where I, as the pilot, had any idea who had chartered our plane (the passenger, a selloff from another company, a business, etc....), therefore I can't imagine how our pilots or union would be able to determine if NJA had called the charter in or if the client had chartered directly. To label the pilots of those planes as scabs would be ridiculous. And most of our pilots are level-headed enough to realize this. Personally, I'm not too worried about it because there simply isn't enough uplift capacity out there to handle all our flights on any given day, unless the charter companies are willing to ignore their own regular clients entirely.
The only thing I would ask of everyone on this board, although it may seem like they don't deserve it, is to cut the emotional guys a little slack. Please keep in mind that we've been trying for a contract for almost 4 years now. Frustration levels are extremely high. Dumped on by management, practically sold out by our last MEC, co-pilots on food stamps, we are now FINALLY at a point where we're DOING something about it. Tempers are running high,and these types of message boards seem to be the place where folks come to vent. Please don't judge our pilots based on the harsh remarks of a few who seem to be more frustrated than most. I think most of our pilots aren't ready to generalize like that, and appreciate the support.

Finally, I feel the need to comment on one person who has posted recently. Rusty, I gotta tell you, I have only the utmost respect for NJI pilots. You guys have bailed me out of a tough situation on several occasions. I have friends who fly there. I've had one of your pilots ask me to join him and his crew for dinner, and he paid. And as for the single carrier thing, well, I could care less. I flew Gulfstreams for my last company, and truly, they aren't any big deal. A big, stable, easy-to-fly plane. I'm currently on the Citation X, and it's much more challenging to fly than the G-plane. I do a lot of overseas flying on the X. It's more work than domestic flying, but still, big deal. Does that make me an aviation god? Hardly (unless I'm talking to the ladies, then I'm most definitely Sky King!). So when you refer to someone as "little man", I gotta wonder who died and made you the Sky God? What arrogance! I've read a lot of heated arguing on this board, but almost never seen anyone "talk down" to someone else, as if they're a subspecies, like you did. Reality check buddy, you're just another spoke in the Netjets wheel, same as me, same as all the rest of us. Differences of opinion on these message boards are natural, but should still be treated with respect.

Okay, that's my post for the month. Girlfriend is on her way over!:cool: When all this is finished and over with, I hope everyone out there who's struggling in this industry wins!
 
Amen

RustyFan said:
Well you should be proud of yourself little man, after all these years, you’ve finally convinced me to sign up on this web board, just so I can tell you this.



I’ve been there, done that, and have seen just about everything good and bad there is to flying airplanes for a living. I’ve got more time on furlough than you probably have at NJA, and I don’t take lightly to ignorant fools like you calling me a scab. Unlike you, I worked at an auto parts store while scabs flew my airplane, only to see my whole airline go under. Your lack of understanding within the confines of what is legal and what is wishful thinking are arrogantly obvious to those of us who actually step back, listen and observe what is taking place. For years I’ve read the comments on these boards, sometimes laughing, sometimes not.



Your cowboy attitude is quick frankly, hilarious. Your dribble and demeaning banter to those pilots who attempt to show you the error of your ways only confirms what I have known all to well for some time now; you don’t know what you’re talking about. I believe you are (as you say) “all whacked out on uppers and downers”.



Now, on to what I really want to say:



After years of putting up with flying freight in the 70’s, airlines in the 80’s, hopping from one charter department to the next in the 90’s, I finally found myself with what I like to consider the “best **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**” flying job in aviation. Several pilots have correctly alluded to NJI being the world’s best operator of Gulfstream aircraft, and we are. And I am quite proud of who I work for. My employer pays me very well, they look after my personal needs, my family needs, and they have more than once showed me that they care for their employees as much as they do their customers. And that is why a union on NJI property has a snow ball’s chance in hell. We actually enjoy going to work, as is evident by the smiles on our face when you guys give us the F*U face in the FBO’s.



Young man, you can walk a picket line until you wear holes in your shoes, I could care less. I will continue to fly; your customers, my customers, and anyone my employer tells me fly. And when your union leadership decides to place me on a scab list, I will gladly see in you in a court of law where I will sue your union for defamation of character, personal damages, and anything else my attorneys think I can get!

WE WORK FOR SEPARATE COMPANIES.......


Understand little man?


So everyone, how’s that for a 1st post.

I endorse, without reservation, every word of this post by Rusty!
 
Rusty.......

I'd be willing to let the courts decide if we are indeeed one copamy or 2 totaly seperate ones. Let the evidence speak. That will come in due time.

Right now we have more pressing issues to address.
 
Yeah we work for separate companies. I did 3 GIV trips last week. How many X trips have you done?

The only difference is you are non union and we are union.

Don't embarrass yourself by saying we are different companies. You just don't want a union on the property.
 
we work for separate companies.

You G-Wizz guys have a great sense of humor, I'm gonna enjoy working with you.
 
Diesel,


Part of the reason NJI has what they have is because NJA IS Unionized. RTS just wanted to stick it to the, then fairly small, EJA pilot group for going Teamsters.

Mind you though...NJI is still grossly underpaid for what they do if you look at the industry averages.....

If we get more money then they will probably get more too...... alot of those guys are secretly routing for us but aren't really free to express those thoughts openly. They have everything to gain by NJA winning.

Stay Strong....1 week to go!!!!!!
 
Young man, you can walk a picket line until you wear holes in your shoes, I could care less. I will continue to fly; your customers, my customers,

I think that was my favorite part.

Of course Do82 has more hair on his back than this guy has on his head.
 
Diesel said:
Yeah we work for separate companies. I did 3 GIV trips last week. Don't embarrass yourself by saying we are different companies.

If you flew 100 so-called G-IV trips, what would that prove?



Let’s say ASA Flight 4566 from ATL-JAX cancelled today because of a mechanical, so now 50 passengers who bought a ticket on Delta Airlines won’t be flying to JAX on the flight they thought they would. So they go see customer service, and low and behold they get put on the very next flight. But wait, now their going to JAX on a Delta 757. Delta owns ASA, and Delta owns Delta. The customer has a seamless transition with a minor delay, and they arrive in JAX where they wanted to go when they bought their ticket.



So now do the ASA pilots work for ASA or Delta? Everyone knows the answer, and you don’t see ASA pilots running around screaming for a List Integration, or demanding they be merged with Delta Pilots.



Same analogy applies for your company and mine. We may be owned by the same corporation, but we work for separate companies. Different Management, operating certificates, different operation centers, etc. etc. It’s called Corporate America, and its how a company like Starbucks can own their biggest competitor, Seattle’s Best.



The most worrisome aspect of what your union is attempting here is their total lack of respect for a fellow pilot. You have no interest in the welfare of NJI employees, nor are you attempting to right a major whipsaw. NJI flies 1 aircraft type, period. Your company is 4 times the size of ours, and yet the ever faithful IBT just can’t refuse to drag us into the mix for nothing more than bargaining fodder. And then for the icing on the cake, you accuse NJI pilots of being future scabs. Your group reminds me of the CNN green video of the Gulf War in Baghdad when the Iraqis were shooting AA guns wildly into night sky hoping to hit something, anything.



Jealously sucks and you knew what you were getting into when you signed on. If you don’t like your current employer, it’s America; go find another job. Or if you want, go on strike if it makes you happy. But dragging someone who has no dog in your fight into your debacle is less than honorable in my book. Of course, I can’t speak for my entire group, because we, well……. speak for ourselves.

 
Just remember this if you think of becoming a SCAB.

Do you want your family and friends to remember you as a SCAB long after your gone?


IE..., your Urn up on the Mantle.
Grandson: Mom why was my Grandpa a SCAB?
 
Really, is that te best you can do? ASA/Delta? These are two ALPA companies and if there an inadvertant mingling of flights, I sure that can be worked out. However, there is NO such seperation between NJI/NJA. We are both products of RTS. ASA and Delta are code shares, period. If ASA goes away, Delta will use Mesa, Air whiskey or anyone else.
When NJA can't get a XL to Mr. Big they send a GIV. When Mr Big doesn't want to pay for the ACK/BOS GV he uses the CE560. We are one big unhappy familly.
 
x402 said:
Really, is that te best you can do? ASA/Delta? These are two ALPA companies and if there an inadvertant mingling of flights, I sure that can be worked out. However, there is NO such seperation between NJI/NJA. We are both products of RTS. ASA and Delta are code shares, period. If ASA goes away, Delta will use Mesa, Air whiskey or anyone else.
When NJA can't get a XL to Mr. Big they send a GIV. When Mr Big doesn't want to pay for the ACK/BOS GV he uses the CE560. We are one big unhappy familly.

"Inadvertant mingling" It's not inadvertent. It's intentional. It's called an equipment sub. Ask an agent.

"When NJA can't get a XL to Mr. Big they send a GIV." Equipment sub.

No such separation between NJI/NJA? Different certificates. Different corporate officers. Different training. Different operations. It's even more separate than the formal code sharing arrangements between airlines.

When NJA can't cover a flight, they also use 135 operators. Are you gonna include all the 135 operators in the country in your single carrier filing?

Or is calling them scabs sufficient?TC
 
I guess the NJI weasels are pretty worried. Posting on a message board to plead their case. Sorry boys, the judge ain't gonna be too worried about how you plead your case here.
 
Wow

You know, as I recall, didn't we all (MOST, I should say) get involved with flying because it is fun? I think all you miserable types should go get desk jobs and continue to be miserable, but at least you would make some real money for a change. Then I could take your seat in the 'front office' and do it with a smile.

Oh wait, flying is fun, right?

I'm going to go back to flying my nice Pilatus around and having some FUN!

Life is way too short to get wrapped up in all of this BS.
icon27.gif
 
Intreped1 said:
Just remember this if you think of becoming a SCAB.

Do you want your family and friends to remember you as a SCAB long after your gone?


IE..., your Urn up on the Mantle.
Grandson: Mom why was my Grandpa a SCAB?


The funniest post I've seen yet... :rolleyes: :D

Thanks, I can't decide between laughing or puking. Talk about having a flare for the dramatic. Get a life dude.

"Mom... Why was grandpa such an idiot to fly for NetJets for $28,000 / yr and then try to screw other pilots making a decent wage..." might be a more appropriate (and likely) question.
 
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Geronimo4497 said:
You know, as I recall, didn't we all (MOST, I should say) get involved with flying because it is fun? I think all you miserable types should go get desk jobs and continue to be miserable, but at least you would make some real money for a change. Then I could take your seat in the 'front office' and do it with a smile.

Oh wait, flying is fun, right?

I'm going to go back to flying my nice Pilatus around and having some FUN!

Life is way too short to get wrapped up in all of this BS. http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon27.gif


That's great!! Ask the men with families if FUN puts dinner on the table and provides a comfortable living if you live in a higher cost of living area.
 
Intreped1 said:
Just remember this if you think of becoming a SCAB.

Do you want your family and friends to remember you as a SCAB long after your gone?


IE..., your Urn up on the Mantle.
Grandson: Mom why was my Grandpa a SCAB?



Scabs are people who work for 1/3 the wages their fellow "brothers" work for.
 
I guess I'm still not seeing the big deal about this single carrier thing. First, I don't really see what advantage we, at NJA, would gain by merging NJA and NJI. Maybe some pilots here would like a chance to fly the big G's, but we've already got plenty of big planes, probably with more coming in the future, so why push it? Any merger would almost definitely include fence agreements so no current NJI pilots would be pushed out of their spots. Also, as much as some NJA pilots like to believe the NJI guys would be stapled onto the bottom of our seniority list, it's highly unlikely to happen that way. From a legal standpoint there WILL be some kind of date-of-hire merge, which would result in quite a few of our pilots being pushed backwards (including some of the more senior guys such as myself), meaning that a lot of our pilots who would be hoping to have a shot at the G's may not get it, but many of the NJI guys would have a shot at, say, the BBJ. And, obviously, there would end up being a certain amount of, uh, 'friction' between the pilots groups, as being witnessed here on this board. Just seems like a lot of aggravation for little gain. But what do I know? I'm a pretty laid back guy who just wants to do my job and go home at the end of my tour.

But for the NJI guys, I'm wondering what it is you're worried about. A merger would almost certainly not result in a reduction in your wages. You wouldn't lose your current positions in the G's. And while a lot of you may not care, I'll bet there are at least a few of you who'd like a chance to fly something like the BBJ, or maybe the Flacon 7X if we were to get something like that. Your working conditions wouldn't change much, except that you would now be operating under a legally-binding set of work rules (ie. the CBA). After all, without an actual contract, what you currently have is a set of 'guidelines' that NJI can change or alter or violate any time they feel like it to get the job done. Before you start saying it doesn't happen, save your breath. I have friends flying there who have told me plenty of stories about 18-hour duty days, involuntary extensions to tours, and others. That doesn't mean they're not happy, I'm just saying that NJI can change things on you whenever they feel like it. Maybe you don't like unions? Okay fine, but what do you guys do if you decide your whole payscale needs to be adjusted upwards because, hey,the cost of living DOES go up every year. Go and ask the company nicely? I'm not a big fan of unions either, but it hasn't turned out to be such a bad thing. If NJA violates our work rules, I get compensated. So, what's the worst thing about a merger?

Finally, both sides can argue their points all they want. Just keep in mind that our union has A LOT on their plate right now. We're fighting a huge battle, with a well-entrenched and financed company. We MUST pick our battles carefully, if for no other reason than we simply don't have the resources to fight about every tiddly little thing that comes along. Only so much money, man-power, and time. So, if we've decided to fight for single-carrier status, then they must be convinced we have a strong case. Otherwise, they'd be putting our resources to better use. Ultimately, a judge will make the decision, but based on what I just said, I too believe we have a good shot at getting single-carrier status. Our union simply wouldn't go after this if our chances were slim. Again, I'm just not sure WHY we want single-carrier status. But I don't think it would be the horrible thing that the NJI guys seem convinced it would be.
 
Reality,

You got it right. But I will answer your question.

The reason for the single carrier is that NJI flies from home. NJA wants us all do move to DAL TEB LAX CMH and MCO.

The want to cap your pay at 81K for bottom 70 percent of Captains and thats after 10 years of Sservice. But they want to pay G drivers market wages. Imagine a TA proposal that came across with G drivers getting to fly from home and paid well ... and then all the rest of us forced to RCAs and paid LOW.

That dog won't hunt.
 
Reality Man says:
But for the NJI guys, I'm wondering what it is you're worried about. A merger would almost certainly not result in a reduction in your wages. You wouldn't lose your current positions in the G's. And while a lot of you may not care, I'll bet there are at least a few of you who'd like a chance to fly something like the BBJ, or maybe the Flacon 7X if we were to get something like that. Your working conditions wouldn't change much, except that you would now be operating under a legally-binding set of work rules (ie. the CBA). After all, without an actual contract, what you currently have is a set of 'guidelines' that NJI can change or alter or violate any time they feel like it to get the job done. Before you start saying it doesn't happen, save your breath. I have friends flying there who have told me plenty of stories about 18-hour duty days, involuntary extensions to tours, and others. That doesn't mean they're not happy, I'm just saying that NJI can change things on you whenever they feel like it. Maybe you don't like unions? Okay fine, but what do you guys do if you decide your whole payscale needs to be adjusted upwards because, hey,the cost of living DOES go up every year. Go and ask the company nicely? I'm not a big fan of unions either, but it hasn't turned out to be such a bad thing. If NJA violates our work rules, I get compensated. So, what's the worst thing about a merger?
________________________________________________________________
Here is the answer: We at NJI HATE unions. Some of us were part of one in the past, and the rest of us avoid them like the Plague. We watch the disgraceful behavior of a few union guys at NJA, and realize that they would be fired instantly, and deservely so, if they behaved that way on the non-union side of the fence. We hear the customers tell us how much they dislike the attitudes of the NJA guys, and it makes us sick. We hear the militant guys intimidate the more moderate ones, and it makes us angry. Unions eat their employers, slowly but surely. We want Netjets to prosper for a long time, and know for a fact we are MUCH more productive that the union guys. Our management communicates with us very well, and us with them. We do NOT want or need any entity representing our interests to management. We do NOT want a union forced on us, and will participate enthusiastically in whatever it takes to keep NJA customers happy if there is a strike.
Wow! I feel so much better getting that off my chest. Thanks for listening!
 
you talk about how we aren't as productive as you. How about all the times i hear when the flight managers that are used to working the Gwhiz boys that they can't believe we're not calling in tired after one leg. Hell I've got 3 more to go and we're doing the same trips.

Oh yeah I've got all the same stories about the nji guys. Bitching on the crew van on the way to teb ES that they had to to do two legs. MIA-PBI-TEB. All I'm thinking to myself is heck we did that before 10am. Then added another 2 legs to that.

We've all got bad apples. I'm not going to base my whole perception of NJI on your bad apples. It seems though that you have about us.
 
Diesel said:
you talk about how we aren't as productive as you. How about all the times i hear when the flight managers that are used to working the Gwhiz boys that they can't believe we're not calling in tired after one leg. Hell I've got 3 more to go and we're doing the same trips.

Oh yeah I've got all the same stories about the nji guys. Bitching on the crew van on the way to teb ES that they had to to do two legs. MIA-PBI-TEB. All I'm thinking to myself is heck we did that before 10am. Then added another 2 legs to that.
We've all got bad apples. I'm not going to base my whole perception of NJI on your bad apples. It seems though that you have about us.
________________________________________________________________
Sorry if I gave that impression! Actually, what steams us the most is the way the militant pilots intimidate the moderate ones when the subject of the strike comes up. We find the majority of NJA pilots to be very professional and pleasant. However, unions tend to penalize the conservative, hard working members, and reward the less productive, angry ones, in our opinion.
 
gunfyter said:
you can thank the management you love so much in Woodbridge for forcing this issue. All they have to do is treat us the same as they do NJI and NJE. Very Simple.

__________________________________________________________________

It is my belief that if NJA would behave the way we do, they would be treated the way we are. However, I have been known to be wrong, but never without opinions! :-)
By the way, I half expected some very fiery responses to my little message, and appreciate the civility with which I have been treated so far on this site. Especially given the highly emotional subject I usually weigh in on, namely unions.
 

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