The logic of relative seniority

[SWA/FO]

I thought, he was talking to TY (not his real name)......our 9th round pick in the trannyDRAFT 2011.

 

[Lear70]

Ty's real name isn't Richard... MINE, however, is...

When this is all over, I'd love to see the TrannyDraft conversations, something tells me they'd be pretty hilarious. :beer:

 

[SWA/FO]

Lear70 - you a former freightDOG? CherryAir, Ameristar or Reliant?

 

[Ty Webb]

Your continuous copping out speaks volumes.

Well since the whole scenario was hypotherical I suppose I could add that the theoretical AAI/VA acquisition occurs two years from now after 8 profitable quarters from VA. Would you then believe that VA/AAI would be fair? 08VA in front of 93AAI, 07VA capt over every single AAI FO (since your preaching seat protection).

Sound fair TY?

This is just stupid.

I'll give you valid frame of reference, Hose. When we (AAI) made an offer for Midex, there was much discussion on the Line about how the integration would work (this is before we were ALPA). The most common discussions I heard had Midex getting relative seniority. Why? Because the airplanes and the flying and the pilots were all coming into the operation. There was no perceived harm in being at the same percentage on a blended list, and I don't know of anyone who thought our FO's were going to be displacing Midex MD80 Captains.

 

[Lear70]

Ayuh. Express One and Kalitta. Those were the days...

It's been an "interesting" career (Instructing, Charter, Fractional, Freight, Regional, Major, turboprops, jets, and lots of fun times and great coworkers I still hang out with to this day). They were all good places in one way or another, and I left on good terms from all my previous jobs, but I'm hoping the SWA uniform will be the last one I ever have to put on... I have enough previous life's wings, hats, and pictures on my office shelf!

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

This is just stupid.

I'll give you valid frame of reference, Hose. When we (AAI) made an offer for Midex, there was much discussion on the Line about how the integration would work (this is before we were ALPA). The most common discussions I heard had Midex getting relative seniority. Why? Because the airplanes and the flying and the pilots were all coming into the operation. There was no perceived harm in being at the same percentage on a blended list, and I don't know of anyone who thought our FO's were going to be displacing Midex MD80 Captains.

I would like to hear an opinion from an AAI FO on this matter. 180 degrees opposite from yours im guessing.

If your FOs had been with the company longer than the Midex Captains (not sure if this was the case), they had every right to expect displacement (and pay protection for the displaced).

If a 5 year captain keeps his seat in front of an 8 year F.O. that is an ABSOLUTE DISPLACEMENT.

 

[Dash Power]

The hypocrisy is amazing. Reverse the situation and the Ty would be screaming bloody murder how unfair relative seniority would be. I honestly would hope for the best but know my company sold my butt and threw my future up into the air.

How can anyone think that being junior to anyone with less longevity is fair. Seniority is about time in service. Period. Absolutely no entitlement other than what your seniority has to offer. Whether it is a captain seat or the bottom of the list.

I can understand some aspects of seat protections. I am certain any reasonable person can. But if anyone who has put in less time than me who is getting my vacation or line that I want in my base that I have been for 17 years, I will be pissed.

 

[MCDU]

The hypocrisy is amazing. Reverse the situation and the Ty would be screaming bloody murder how unfair relative seniority would be. I honestly would hope for the best but know my company sold my butt and threw my future up into the air.

How can anyone think that being junior to anyone with less longevity is fair. Seniority is about time in service. Period. Absolutely no entitlement other than what your seniority has to offer. Whether it is a captain seat or the bottom of the list.

I can understand some aspects of seat protections. I am certain any reasonable person can. But if anyone who has put in less time than me who is getting my vacation or line that I want in my base that I have been for 17 years, I will be pissed.

Good post. This is exactly how it should be done.

Ask any NWA, AAA pilot and they feel the same. The funny thing is that if it goes relative, the pilots with less time will get their DOH and the others get slotted in. It is a win win for the group with less years put in when relative is used. They still get DOH and get put ahead of pilots with more time invested. That is why one group will totally like that outcome. (Delta or AWA).

Putting workers with less time ahead is huge factor why we have all these discussions. Try using a relative method with some other work groups. They would not touch it, because they know how workers feel when they get put behind someone with less time.

We have AWA/AAA, CAL/United, Polar/Atlas and MEH/F9/RAH/Lynx all going no where. I guess we can add SWA/Airtran soon. All this because pilots abandoned the golden standard involved with Workgroups. DOH

M

 

[Ty Webb]

The hypocrisy is amazing. Reverse the situation and the Ty would be screaming bloody murder how unfair relative seniority would be.

It's pretty hard to scream when you find yourself at the same place on a blended list.

"My God! I went from 30.77% on the old SWA list to 30.77% on the blended list! Oh, the humanity!

 

[Dash Power]

It's pretty hard to scream when you find yourself at the same place on a blended list.

"My God! I went from 30.77% on the old SWA list to 30.77% on the blended list! Oh, the humanity!

And you would have been 44.99 percent on the old list. Which is a fair place for you to be because you worked less than the others before you.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Ty, 30 pct on a 17 year old list is not the same as 30 pct on a 41 year old list.

The older the list, the slower the climb. You still have dues to pay brother.

 

[TWA Dude]

Seniority is about time in service. Period.

Oh really? Then how do you explain the fact that when pilots are furloughed your seniority gets worse instead of better?

Seniority for pilots is nothing other than how many pilots are above and below you. What you describe is called longevity. Why it's so hard for some to differentiate the two is beyond me.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, 30 pct on a 17 year old list is not the same as 30 pct on a 41 year old list.

The older the list, the slower the climb. You still have dues to pay brother.

That logic works both ways, Hose.

So then, an FO at 58% on a list with flat growth doesn't mean the same as 58% on a list with rapid growth coming (AAI airframe orders = 37% growth by 2016).

 

[Cometman]

That logic works both ways, Hose.

So then, an FO at 58% on a list with flat growth doesn't mean the same as 58% on a list with rapid growth coming (AAI airframe orders = 37% growth by 2016).

You missed the whole point he was making. You really should stop while you were ahead. Every time you and Lear70 open your mouth you convince everybody you are --------. I am only in the eleventh grade and I can see through you. Good luck, you must think everybody is buying your stupid quotes.

 

[Dash Power]

Oh really? Then how do you explain the fact that when pilots are furloughed your seniority gets worse instead of better?

Seniority for pilots is nothing other than how many pilots are above and below you. What you describe is called longevity. Why it's so hard for some to differentiate the two is beyond me.

No problem understanding this remarkably obvious point about seniority. My number is what drives my quality of life. And my number represents in the list how long I have earned that position. No matter if it is 3 months or 30 years. How many above me and below me is what gives me the power of my seniority number. Someone on the list I serve who has been here 7 years less than I but has a seniority number above me has more power for less time served. Which is absolutely unfair in this integration.

I really do not care about other seniority mergers or integrations, just this one.

 

[ackattacker]

I really do not care about other seniority mergers or integrations, just this one.

In this merger DOH is a windfall for SW pilots and relative seniority is a windfall for Airtran.

HOWEVER

Relative Seniority does not hurt the career expectations of a SW Pilot but DOH does hurt the career expectations of an Airtran pilot. Thus from my perspective, given those as the the only two choices, Relative Seniority is the *more fair* choice since I cannot get onboard with the idea of advancing one's own career at the expense of another.

 

[Lear70]

You missed the whole point he was making. You really should stop while you were ahead. Every time you and Lear70 open your mouth you convince everybody you are --------. I am only in the eleventh grade and I can see through you. Good luck, you must think everybody is buying your stupid quotes.

Really... and here I thought (and have been told by pilots from both sides via PM) that I was being pretty reasonable in simply saying that it should be fair, that a staple simply isn't going to be a tenable solution, and that no Captain should lose their seat.

And people wonder why more AirTran pilots aren't speaking out on here on this issue (and there are plenty lurking who used to post regularly) when they see what happens to those of us who do, even if our message is one of letting our respective Merger Committees find a MIDDLE GROUND SOLUTION (which is what I've advocated since day 1).

Under the circumstances, I'm not surprised the board is so devoid of our regular AAI posters these days, not because they agree or disagree with you, me, or any other poster on here, but simply because it's not worth the angst.

We're just going to let the MC's and, if necessary, the arbitrators work it out and move on. Best of luck, and smooth skies to you.

Regards,

 

[doh]

Good post. This is exactly how it should be done.

Ask any NWA, AAA pilot and they feel the same. The funny thing is that if it goes relative, the pilots with less time will get their DOH and the others get slotted in. It is a win win for the group with less years put in when relative is used. They still get DOH and get put ahead of pilots with more time invested. That is why one group will totally like that outcome. (Delta or AWA).

Putting workers with less time ahead is huge factor why we have all these discussions. Try using a relative method with some other work groups. They would not touch it, because they know how workers feel when they get put behind someone with less time.

We have AWA/AAA, CAL/United, Polar/Atlas and MEH/F9/RAH/Lynx all going no where. I guess we can add SWA/Airtran soon. All this because pilots abandoned the golden standard involved with Workgroups. DOH

M

Unless you did not have a job because you were on the street. Of course, you would exclude those people from the integration.
And of course, if you agreed to legally binding arbitration, and the arbitrator gave his ruling, which you agreed to be legally bound by, you would uphold your legal obligation to comply with that legally binding ruling. Wouldn't you?

 

[TWA Dude]

I really do not care about other seniority mergers or integrations, just this one.

You don't have to care about them but you should know that arbitrators certainly do. Every merger is different thus no single integration method can be considered fair.

 

[redflyer65]

Your right. The previous awards show these things..

1- When it's lopsided, there will be no windfall by one group.
2- QOL, pay and career expectations will be included.

In this scenerio, the absolute windfall gained by the Airtran pilots will be adjusted for with list integration. I'm guessing that 3yrs at AAI will be worth 1yr at SW. (No staple and no realitive integration)

I'm not buying that no AAI captain will lose his seat. In that scenerio a junior Airtran CA would be above a senior SW FO that's been here longer. Not sure that's gonna play out that way. Fences might help somewhat. I would say pay protection too but a junior AAI captain would get more money being a senior SW FO, along with a better schedule.

I'd easily give up a CA seat to make more money and have a better schedule.