The logic of relative seniority

[Cometman]

Hose,

After reading many of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you have no intent other than to spread mis-information. Having an opinion is fine. Blatant faulty information though is a horse of a different color. I encourage everyone here to go back and read SLI arbitration precedent. Then we can have an intelligent chat based on facts instead of one man's mis-informed opinion.

Since you are an expert maybe you can answer this question:

I have a question for anybody that thinks he is an expert in this field. I would assume that both sides have to get a transition agreement with their respective company before they start on the SLI. At what point do the both sides agree if it will be handled by 1 arbritraitor or a panel of 3? Is that a choice they have ? If so, if they disagree does it go to arbitration? It seems like it can be a never ending task.

Thanks

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

I said "not likely". I thought that implied "opinion".

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Hose,

After reading many of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you have no intent other than to spread mis-information. Having an opinion is fine. Blatant faulty information though is a horse of a different color. I encourage everyone here to go back and read SLI arbitration precedent. Then we can have an intelligent chat based on facts instead of one man's mis-informed opinion.

I said "not likely". I thought that implied "opinion". All of my posts carry the opinion that we will likely find something fair for all of us. No one needs to get hosed here.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Ty, Your new rates will not apply to the decision. There was a snapshot taken the day of the merger and everything will be based on that. SWA might get a raise in a few days too, but that will not be included either.

 

[Just thinking]

Southwest Airlines reached a tentative agreement Thursday with its 5,800 pilots represented by the Southwest Airlines Pilots Assn. on switching some future 737-700 deliveries to -800s.
According to SWAPA, the agreement includes "a single pay rate for the 737, profitability-based raise added to the hard 2% raise in 2011, a contract extension with an amendable date extended to September 2012, and a profitability-based raise in 2012."

Has to go to vote. I am certain that the international portion of the future expansion will hinge dramatically on the 800's. This will be conveyed by your union leadership. You will have a pay raise without taking a single delivery of an 800. OK to pay Southwest pilots the same rate for 122/137 seats but can't pay the same for an aircraft that can be configured with 120-125?????? The 737-800 seats 162 passengers in a typical two-class layout, or up to 189 in one class.

For arguments sake lets meet in the middle on the 800 seating and make it 175 seats. More than a 50 seat difference from the 500 and almost 40 from the 300. You want to penalize the 717 crews because they have between (-7 to +3) seats depending on configuration for the 737-500 or (-20 to -12) seats compared to the 737-300. Take the rate and divide it by the seats on the 717 and the 737 (300/500/700/800). Now you have a rate that is dependant upon seat capacity and will pay accordingly. You can further differentiate the pay when it comes to overwater or international overrides. Does a 717 crew have LESS liability than a 735 crew? Does a 735 crew have LESS liability than a 737 crew?

You should be careful about cutting out crews because they carry less pax.... it could be used against you in future negotiations by the company.... if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander. I woud venture to bet that the 500's will be around a bit longer than what was previously expected. Expansion will come pretty quick when all of the markets start to interconnect.

 

[FO 4 Life]

I'll throw something in as an outsider since I rode on a SWA plane yesterday and the senior captain doesn't think anything will affect him.

Everyone on here keeps talking about pay. If you look at arbitrators decisions regarding seniority lists, a lot of it has to do with career expectations. Not so much pay, but that is part of it.

Career expectations for both are 737 captain. That's it. The real fly in the ointment I believe, is that an arbitrator may look at the fact Airtran sort of does international. Is that a higher career expectation?

 

[shootr]

You want to penalize the 717 crews...

No, I do not. But management might.

 

[OK3]

Southwest Airlines reached a tentative agreement Thursday with its 5,800 pilots represented by the Southwest Airlines Pilots Assn. on switching some future 737-700 deliveries to -800s.
According to SWAPA, the agreement includes "a single pay rate for the 737, profitability-based raise added to the hard 2% raise in 2011, a contract extension with an amendable date extended to September 2012, and a profitability-based raise in 2012."

Has to go to vote. I am certain that the international portion of the future expansion will hinge dramatically on the 800's. This will be conveyed by your union leadership. You will have a pay raise without taking a single delivery of an 800. OK to pay Southwest pilots the same rate for 122/137 seats but can't pay the same for an aircraft that can be configured with 120-125?????? The 737-800 seats 162 passengers in a typical two-class layout, or up to 189 in one class.


For arguments sake lets meet in the middle on the 800 seating and make it 175 seats. More than a 50 seat difference from the 500 and almost 40 from the 300. You want to penalize the 717 crews because they have between (-7 to +3) seats depending on configuration for the 737-500 or (-20 to -12) seats compared to the 737-300. Take the rate and divide it by the seats on the 717 and the 737 (300/500/700/800). Now you have a rate that is dependant upon seat capacity and will pay accordingly. You can further differentiate the pay when it comes to overwater or international overrides. Does a 717 crew have LESS liability than a 735 crew? Does a 735 crew have LESS liability than a 737 crew?

You should be careful about cutting out crews because they carry less pax.... it could be used against you in future negotiations by the company.... if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander. I woud venture to bet that the 500's will be around a bit longer than what was previously expected. Expansion will come pretty quick when all of the markets start to interconnect.

I did not mean to imply that I "want" a lower pay rate for anything. I am simply bringing up the possibility that this may be an issue. We have a very small number of 737-500s (around 25 or 5% of the fleet). The company so far has had little incentive to fight us over another, lower pay scale for smaller equipment. Bringing on almost 100 smaller airframes is going to be another matter. Compound this with the different economics of 717 airframe and I think the company is going to want to pay us less to fly it. Not emotional, just possible.

 

[scoreboardII]

Not emotional, just possible.

You mean probable, as AT now has a second payscale for 717, right?

 

[instructordude]

I'll throw something in as an outsider since I rode on a SWA plane yesterday and the senior captain doesn't think anything will affect him.

Everyone on here keeps talking about pay. If you look at arbitrators decisions regarding seniority lists, a lot of it has to do with career expectations. Not so much pay, but that is part of it.

Career expectations for both are 737 captain. That's it. The real fly in the ointment I believe, is that an arbitrator may look at the fact Airtran sort of does international. Is that a higher career expectation?

Career expectation is EVERYTHING. Capt is the pinnacle of a career and this is why Airtran pilots will maintain threre CApt positions. Anything else is an ridicuolous and against federal law as mandated by the McCain/Allegeney Act. Get use to it. It's federal law.