The logic of relative seniority

[St. Nic]

I am glad the Southwest pilot group recognizes the value and fairness of a Date of Hire integration. The AT and AWA pilots should read and listen.

 

[waveflyer]

Oh! Thanks angus!
If an opinion is worthless, (mine included) how much value is an opinion of an opinion?

Ok you angry little Irish leprechaun- just settle down- I'm sorry you don't like my meaningless opinion on the SLI- but if it struck such a nerve than that's a good sign it was pretty well right on-

So you should respect your MC and stop leaving psychological clues about your views of the SLI!

And though I'm not trying to be an ambassador of anything- when you come out of the woodwork to loudly critique the only opinion that I've posted where I didn't qualify it as meaningless- it doesn't hold much water- I've gotten on my own guys for being dumb when these things devolve into a pissing contest-

Have you Angus?

And what I see is a Line Pilot that has decided to ignore the request of his Union Merger Committee, and pretend to have it ALL figured out.

I seriously doubt that ANYTHING said on this playground would have an effect on an SLI... but at least myself and 99.999% of the rest of the AirTran Pilots have decided to throw the Merger Committee a bone and abide by their request.

Why are you such in need of being the center of attention or simply being an internet blowhard... that you can't just STFU?

You aren't the ambassador that you think you are in speaking for YOUR expectations or realizations of what a SLI will look like.... you are simply the loggerhead that people on the Merger Committee have to address.

 

[waveflyer]

Bullsheet. In 1994 they hired one is six. In 2002 they hired one in eight.

Since the mid-eighties it has been more difficult to get a job with SWA than any other carrier. The minimum hiring requirements have always been much higher than the other majors. Most hired with majors since the eighties didn't meet the minimum requirements. In my class they averaged the total time at around 4500 hours with 2300 turbine.

Those are the facts.

That was my point man.

I've flown with a whole LOT of 2nd and 3rd interview hires here that were finally hired well before 2000.

 

[Lear70]

Wow, your rumor mill is obviously alive and well (and missing a few FACTS that are part of PUBLIC record).

I'm just here to fly, have a good time, do right by our coworkers and customers, and go home.

Wishing everyone a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

 

[ASADFW7]

Lear, flightinfo is not the place to be reasonable, and now a few wingnuts know who you are, the standard practise is to attack the man not the issue on the internet, or even the playground. I know you are but what am I? My advice, take it or leave it. Disengage, there is nothing to gain except for you having a rocky road made by a few with possible long term negative consequences at SWA.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, flightinfo is not the place to be reasonable, and now a few wingnuts know who you are, the standard practise is to attack the man not the issue on the internet, or even the playground. I know you are but what am I? My advice, take it or leave it. Disengage, there is nothing to gain except for you having a rocky road made by a few with possible long term negative consequences at SWA.

You're right, thanks.

Every time I try to disengage I get sucked back in. Should know better by now.

Merry Christmas to you... even if our Cowboys are out of the playoffs. Think Romo will be back next season?

 

[27 driver]

It's a strange integration- relative seniority wouldn't be fair to our senior captains- not even close- DOH wouldnt be fair to the junior WN fo's

I see DOH with a ratio down from A mid 1990's hire that leaves about 500 AT Fo's below CJ.

IMHO with the contractual and cultural gains- this is pretty fair and livable- litmus test?
There'd be pilots pissed about it- but both sides would vote it in

Something tells me that would garner about 500 no votes on the AAI side. That essentially staples over 25% of the AAI group.

 

[clippyrip]

Bullsheet. In 1994 they hired one is six. In 2002 they hired one in eight.

Since the mid-eighties it has been more difficult to get a job with SWA than any other carrier. The minimum hiring requirements have always been much higher than the other majors. Most hired with majors since the eighties didn't meet the minimum requirements. In my class they averaged the total time at around 4500 hours with 2300 turbine.

Those are the facts.

Hate to rain on your parade but the "we are harder to get onto" argument holds ZERO water in an arbiters mind. Hopefully you don't load your arbitration guns with those meritless blanks. You'll end up wasting good presentation time on non-starters when you could try and make a reasonable argument.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I am glad the Southwest pilot group recognizes the value and fairness of a Date of Hire integration. The AT and AWA pilots should read and listen.

Apples to oranges.
AT and SW are both proifitable growing companies.
Us Airways east was days away from you becoming a walmart greeter.(although you'd be paid a lot better):laugh:

 

[redflyer65]

Something tells me that would garner about 500 no votes on the AAI side. That essentially staples over 25% of the AAI group.

Most likely how an arbitor would rule, so the vote wouldn't matter anyway.

 

[Dash Power]

Most likely how an arbitor would rule, so the vote wouldn't matter anyway.

After further consideration and consultation, I think that arbitration will work best for the SWA pilots. I can see three to five year fences being reasonable.We will come to terms on fences and transitional pay and benefits issues. The seniority issue will be best served by a third party because I really don't see the AT pilots seeing our contract as a gain, but as a right. An arbitrator will see that differently. By definition "fair and equitable" is a two way street. It will be easy to present to an arbitrator that natural large gains by one party, with a contract earned by another party, would not be fair without contribution by the ones benefiting from the hard work of another.

Our union appears to be more than ready to work fairly with the AT union and at the same time prepare to successfully arbitrate any unresolved issues to the acceptance of largely all SWA pilots.

Along with most all the employees and leaders of SWA, the adaptation of AT employees to our culture is my main concern. I will assume slow and easy integration will be an important element for its success.

 

[27 driver]

Most likely how an arbitor would rule, so the vote wouldn't matter anyway.

Time will tell. You may be right. If that is fair in the mind of the arbitrator than so be it. I guess the definition of fair is extremely relative.
Cheers

 

[27 driver]

Dash, are you talking about a 3 to 5 year fence then some type of bump and flush? It will be interesting to see how it works out when the fences come down. I see a bunch of training events taking place when the fences come down.

 

[say again]

Us Airways east was days away from you becoming a walmart greeter.(although you'd be paid a lot better):laugh:

And we'd be better off not having these d-bags around here!!!:beer:

 

[slaquer5]

Dash, are you talking about a 3 to 5 year fence then some type of bump and flush? It will be interesting to see how it works out when the fences come down. I see a bunch of training events taking place when the fences come down.

Not in the way your thinking. SWA has some big plans, that personally I think will make everyone on the property happy. Have a nice Christmas and NY.

 

[Dash Power]

27 driver,

None of us can guess terms of a fence at this point. Far too many dynamics to consider that affect each other. We all know that airline managers want to do that costs the least. SWA's training costs are by far the lowest in the industry. So strict limitations on equipment movement can be largely assumed.

Every AT pilot will have to go through initial training if we are to operate like one airline. I can see 717 training staying where it is for the foreseeable future. I can see it to be an advantage to the company to have the current 717 pilots staying there for the foreseeable future. Training for new equipment is extensive and very costly. I can't even begin to imagine what will pan out but one thing is certain, if the company had it their way, the only training that would occur on the 717 would be for natural attrition, ie retirements, with upgrade and new hire aircraft type commitments for an extended period of time.

I am certain that there will be no aircraft jumping at Southwest Airlines.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm a big giant hypocrit-

I got called out via PM that i wasnt advocating enough for Swa guys and I guess that bugged me- apologies-

I wanted to point out that I DO have an opinion and HAVE thought about the SLI- when I call my own guys idiots it's bc getting on here and getting into pissing contests won't change anything- I DO have my opinion and so does virtually everyone else -

the mistake is in getting emotionally attached to that meaningless opinion. I have ZERO expectation that any air tran pilot will agree me on FI-

And that's the larger point:

However it works out, I will be "honored" (as Herb likes to say- and you feel that he IS) to work and fly with my new SWA family and you will have to be very sneaky to find a way to pay the tab when I catch you on overnights.

Merry Christmas Lear- I agree- shouldn't get sucked in.
Merry Christmas to all-

 

[St. Nic]

Apples to oranges.
AT and SW are both proifitable growing companies.
Us Airways east was days away from you becoming a walmart greeter.(although you'd be paid a lot better):laugh:

? Your post makes no since. ?
Southwest embraces DOH, that is the point!
USAPA embraces DOH, see the commonality?

And for the billionth time USAir was not going to liquidate, the financing was in place to give to AWA and bring them under the USAir umbrella.
Our union is negotiating right now to put us up there with Delta and United and I am sure we will be above that. We will get our retro and snap back and we have our date of hire after the appeals court ruling. Life is so very good for this east pilot!

 

[Ty Webb]

truly the lowest of the low

On another note, regarding your pilots who tend to go above and beyond to try to get the job done, does that include the those who use their free time while on medical leave to do car work in the driveway?

An extremely cheap shot that speaks volumes about what kind of person you are. You are not only misinformed, but being played for a stooge.

So much for the "We only hire the best" nonsense.

 

[vetrider]

? Your post makes no since. ?
Southwest embraces DOH, that is the point!
USAPA embraces DOH, see the commonality?

And for the billionth time USAir was not going to liquidate, the financing was in place to give to AWA and bring them under the USAir umbrella.
Our union is negotiating right now to put us up there with Delta and United and I am sure we will be above that. We will get our retro and snap back and we have our date of hire after the appeals court ruling. Life is so very good for this east pilot!

Now you're not making sInce.

 

[ivauir]

That logic works both ways, Hose.

So then, an FO at 58% on a list with flat growth doesn't mean the same as 58% on a list with rapid growth coming (AAI airframe orders = 37% growth by 2016).

Ty,

We didn't grow so that we could save the money we are using to buy you. Every single one of your airplanes represents a dilution of our full hedges and a corresponding increase in risk.

It would really help your credibility if you stopped trying to rationalize:
- A 50% pay raise.
- More days off.
- A more stable and better funded company
- A contract that is superior in every way
- Superior equipment (717 vs -800)
AND
- Getting slotted in with pilots with 20 years more longevity

Your seniority and seat exist in Atlanta, on a 717, at a lousy pay rate, under a crummy contract, and at an airline with a questionable future.

A situation so egregious you were willing to go on strike. A future so bleak that you managers approached SWA six times to try a broker a deal.

It is one thing to be proud of your accomplishments and want credit for what you bring to the deal. It is quite another to completely disregard and disrespect what the other side of the table brings to the deal.

It is considerable. Try to be a dude for a change.

 

[doh]

Something tells me that would garner about 500 no votes on the AAI side. That essentially staples over 25% of the AAI group.

499. I have one friend who couldn't care less about being stapled. He crunched the numbers and he will have his house paid off by the time he is 45. And he test drove the new Mustang and is looking for a bigger gun safe!

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Hell the bigger gun safe should be the first thing he looks at.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

We didn't grow so that we could save the money we are using to buy you. Every single one of your airplanes represents a dilution of our full hedges and a corresponding increase in risk.

It would really help your credibility if you stopped trying to rationalize:
- A 50% pay raise.
- More days off.
- A more stable and better funded company
- A contract that is superior in every way
- Superior equipment (717 vs -800)
AND
- Getting slotted in with pilots with 20 years more longevity

Your seniority and seat exist in Atlanta, on a 717, at a lousy pay rate, under a crummy contract, and at an airline with a questionable future.

A situation so egregious you were willing to go on strike. A future so bleak that you managers approached SWA six times to try a broker a deal.

It is one thing to be proud of your accomplishments and want credit for what you bring to the deal. It is quite another to completely disregard and disrespect what the other side of the table brings to the deal.

It is considerable. Try to be a dude for a change.

Yawn.

You're talking to yourself, Chief. I could debate you point by point, but why bother? It's up to the Merger Committees and/or Arbitration.

See you on the other side.

 

[27 driver]

27 driver,

None of us can guess terms of a fence at this point. Far too many dynamics to consider that affect each other. We all know that airline managers want to do that costs the least. SWA's training costs are by far the lowest in the industry. So strict limitations on equipment movement can be largely assumed.

Every AT pilot will have to go through initial training if we are to operate like one airline. I can see 717 training staying where it is for the foreseeable future. I can see it to be an advantage to the company to have the current 717 pilots staying there for the foreseeable future. Training for new equipment is extensive and very costly. I can't even begin to imagine what will pan out but one thing is certain, if the company had it their way, the only training that would occur on the 717 would be for natural attrition, ie retirements, with upgrade and new hire aircraft type commitments for an extended period of time.

I am certain that there will be no aircraft jumping at Southwest Airlines.

I guess my point was that eventually seniority will have to play a part. If the 717 gets based in XYZ and senior guys want that domicile they most likely will be able to bid the 717 to get that domicile or upgrade. I was just wondering if it would be a bump and flush or when a vacancy opens type of thing. Any thoughts?

 

[RedDogC130]

SWA the company will dictate how the vacancy bids are dealt with. They do that now. They can control how the many movements in a given period. I also will wager that there will be seat/aircraft locks for looooong periods when the movement causes training periods. I doubt SWA has interest in becoming like a legacy where someone can spend half thier career in the training dept learning a new plane. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

 

[cactusboy53]

And for the billionth time USAir was not going to liquidate, the financing was in place to give to AWA and bring them under the USAir umbrella......

From the opening statements for the pilot merger:

The merger was accounted for as a “reverse acquisition,” using the purchase method of accounting. As a result, while America West Holdings became a wholly-owned subsidiary of US Airways Group, America West Holdings was treated as the acquiring company for accounting purposes because: a) America West Holdings stockholders received 39% of US Airways Group’s common stock while former US Airways shareholders’ equity was entirely wiped out and its shareholders received none of the new company’s equity; b) America West Holdings designated six board members while US Airways designated only two; and c) America West CEO (Douglas Parker) became the new company’s Chairman and CEO (and America West executives occupied the CFO, Chief Administrative Officer, and Executive VP of Sales and Marketing positions).

************

As of the merger announcement, US Airways was down to 26 days of cash. That cash decline continued through closing of the merger despite its sale of assets to Eastshore Aviation LLC (Republic Airlines) for $125 million. By September 2005, just prior to the transaction closing, US Airways was down to five days of cash.

************

The US Airways Merger Committee will claim that America West was facing liquidity problems. We will develop the facts on that subject and debunk that assertion at the hearing. For now, it is sufficient to observe that in the Company’s first quarter 2005 earnings conference call, America West’s CEO said: “We’re not losing any sleep over liquidity here,” and days later the Company reaffirmed its previous order for an additional 22 A-320 family aircraft.

Sorry Nic, but for the last time.....you are wrong. John Adams once said: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

You just can not change the FACTS.

 

[madjack]

Well, here we are two days before the holiday throwing barbs on an anonymous forum...let's take a break and make a new years eve resolutoin to worry about the things we can influence (and for most of us the results of the Acquistion/SLI is way above our paygrade) like continuing to make SWA the most successful airline in History, with success comes growth and financial security....

 

[Lear70]

Moderator hat on:

Personal attacks will NOT be allowed. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

Cometman suspended for 7 days. Next time it will be a 30 day suspension. 3rd offense is permanent banning.

Abide by the ToS.

/mod

 

[Dash Power]

I guess my point was that eventually seniority will have to play a part. If the 717 gets based in XYZ and senior guys want that domicile they most likely will be able to bid the 717 to get that domicile or upgrade. I was just wondering if it would be a bump and flush or when a vacancy opens type of thing. Any thoughts?

The only thought I am certain of is what ever will save the company the most money it will want. Training costs would be considerably higher without long locks on the 717. With so few of those airplanes available, I really can't see SWA hanging on to those for a long time. SWA may be interested to see how another type of aircraft works within our business model and make decisions based on that experience.