The logic of relative seniority

[ivauir]

That logic works both ways, Hose.

So then, an FO at 58% on a list with flat growth doesn't mean the same as 58% on a list with rapid growth coming (AAI airframe orders = 37% growth by 2016).

Ty,

We didn't grow so that we could save the money we are using to buy you. Every single one of your airplanes represents a dilution of our full hedges and a corresponding increase in risk.

It would really help your credibility if you stopped trying to rationalize:
- A 50% pay raise.
- More days off.
- A more stable and better funded company
- A contract that is superior in every way
- Superior equipment (717 vs -800)
AND
- Getting slotted in with pilots with 20 years more longevity

Your seniority and seat exist in Atlanta, on a 717, at a lousy pay rate, under a crummy contract, and at an airline with a questionable future.

A situation so egregious you were willing to go on strike. A future so bleak that you managers approached SWA six times to try a broker a deal.

It is one thing to be proud of your accomplishments and want credit for what you bring to the deal. It is quite another to completely disregard and disrespect what the other side of the table brings to the deal.

It is considerable. Try to be a dude for a change.

 

[doh]

Something tells me that would garner about 500 no votes on the AAI side. That essentially staples over 25% of the AAI group.

499. I have one friend who couldn't care less about being stapled. He crunched the numbers and he will have his house paid off by the time he is 45. And he test drove the new Mustang and is looking for a bigger gun safe!

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Hell the bigger gun safe should be the first thing he looks at.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

We didn't grow so that we could save the money we are using to buy you. Every single one of your airplanes represents a dilution of our full hedges and a corresponding increase in risk.

It would really help your credibility if you stopped trying to rationalize:
- A 50% pay raise.
- More days off.
- A more stable and better funded company
- A contract that is superior in every way
- Superior equipment (717 vs -800)
AND
- Getting slotted in with pilots with 20 years more longevity

Your seniority and seat exist in Atlanta, on a 717, at a lousy pay rate, under a crummy contract, and at an airline with a questionable future.

A situation so egregious you were willing to go on strike. A future so bleak that you managers approached SWA six times to try a broker a deal.

It is one thing to be proud of your accomplishments and want credit for what you bring to the deal. It is quite another to completely disregard and disrespect what the other side of the table brings to the deal.

It is considerable. Try to be a dude for a change.

Yawn.

You're talking to yourself, Chief. I could debate you point by point, but why bother? It's up to the Merger Committees and/or Arbitration.

See you on the other side.

 

[27 driver]

27 driver,

None of us can guess terms of a fence at this point. Far too many dynamics to consider that affect each other. We all know that airline managers want to do that costs the least. SWA's training costs are by far the lowest in the industry. So strict limitations on equipment movement can be largely assumed.

Every AT pilot will have to go through initial training if we are to operate like one airline. I can see 717 training staying where it is for the foreseeable future. I can see it to be an advantage to the company to have the current 717 pilots staying there for the foreseeable future. Training for new equipment is extensive and very costly. I can't even begin to imagine what will pan out but one thing is certain, if the company had it their way, the only training that would occur on the 717 would be for natural attrition, ie retirements, with upgrade and new hire aircraft type commitments for an extended period of time.

I am certain that there will be no aircraft jumping at Southwest Airlines.

I guess my point was that eventually seniority will have to play a part. If the 717 gets based in XYZ and senior guys want that domicile they most likely will be able to bid the 717 to get that domicile or upgrade. I was just wondering if it would be a bump and flush or when a vacancy opens type of thing. Any thoughts?

 

[RedDogC130]

SWA the company will dictate how the vacancy bids are dealt with. They do that now. They can control how the many movements in a given period. I also will wager that there will be seat/aircraft locks for looooong periods when the movement causes training periods. I doubt SWA has interest in becoming like a legacy where someone can spend half thier career in the training dept learning a new plane. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

 

[cactusboy53]

And for the billionth time USAir was not going to liquidate, the financing was in place to give to AWA and bring them under the USAir umbrella......

From the opening statements for the pilot merger:

The merger was accounted for as a “reverse acquisition,” using the purchase method of accounting. As a result, while America West Holdings became a wholly-owned subsidiary of US Airways Group, America West Holdings was treated as the acquiring company for accounting purposes because: a) America West Holdings stockholders received 39% of US Airways Group’s common stock while former US Airways shareholders’ equity was entirely wiped out and its shareholders received none of the new company’s equity; b) America West Holdings designated six board members while US Airways designated only two; and c) America West CEO (Douglas Parker) became the new company’s Chairman and CEO (and America West executives occupied the CFO, Chief Administrative Officer, and Executive VP of Sales and Marketing positions).

************

As of the merger announcement, US Airways was down to 26 days of cash. That cash decline continued through closing of the merger despite its sale of assets to Eastshore Aviation LLC (Republic Airlines) for $125 million. By September 2005, just prior to the transaction closing, US Airways was down to five days of cash.

************

The US Airways Merger Committee will claim that America West was facing liquidity problems. We will develop the facts on that subject and debunk that assertion at the hearing. For now, it is sufficient to observe that in the Company’s first quarter 2005 earnings conference call, America West’s CEO said: “We’re not losing any sleep over liquidity here,” and days later the Company reaffirmed its previous order for an additional 22 A-320 family aircraft.

Sorry Nic, but for the last time.....you are wrong. John Adams once said: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

You just can not change the FACTS.

 

[madjack]

Well, here we are two days before the holiday throwing barbs on an anonymous forum...let's take a break and make a new years eve resolutoin to worry about the things we can influence (and for most of us the results of the Acquistion/SLI is way above our paygrade) like continuing to make SWA the most successful airline in History, with success comes growth and financial security....

 

[Lear70]

Moderator hat on:

Personal attacks will NOT be allowed. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

Cometman suspended for 7 days. Next time it will be a 30 day suspension. 3rd offense is permanent banning.

Abide by the ToS.

/mod

 

[Dash Power]

I guess my point was that eventually seniority will have to play a part. If the 717 gets based in XYZ and senior guys want that domicile they most likely will be able to bid the 717 to get that domicile or upgrade. I was just wondering if it would be a bump and flush or when a vacancy opens type of thing. Any thoughts?

The only thought I am certain of is what ever will save the company the most money it will want. Training costs would be considerably higher without long locks on the 717. With so few of those airplanes available, I really can't see SWA hanging on to those for a long time. SWA may be interested to see how another type of aircraft works within our business model and make decisions based on that experience.

 

[ivauir]

Yawn.

You're talking to yourself, Chief. I could debate you point by point, but why bother? It's up to the Merger Committees and/or Arbitration.

See you on the other side.

Typical Ty,

You talk SLI until someone makes salient points you don't like then you pretend to leave it up to the committees.

Either be willing to debate or leave the subject alone.

 

[RedDogC130]

Moderator hat on:

Personal attacks will NOT be allowed. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

Cometman suspended for 7 days. Next time it will be a 30 day suspension. 3rd offense is permanent banning.

Abide by the ToS.

/mod

Lear,

I read what Cometman posted and it was not a personal attack. You have the biggest conflict of interest on this site. Someone does not talk nice to one of your boy friends and you get upset and ban them for something they did not do. I sure hope you know your real name is all over other SWA forums and you are making quite a name for yourself without even being on the property. If you do not think management reads these sites....you are wrong again. Might want to change you plan of attack.

 

[Dash Power]

At appears to me as long as you , or :laugh: or, , or , or , you are allowed to throw passive aggressive insults. Interesting interpretation.

Anyways, all this concern about seniority integration will be dust in the wind in short order. I believe the real short term concern is integrating the two airlines together. And the FAA has much to do with when we turn on the one certificate switch. It will take potentially years for that to happen.

Even with a quick resolution to seniority issues, it will be much longer before we see the results of any seniority integration. I will guess that it will take two years before we work under one certificate. And until then, we will have two unions flying Southwest aircraft.

Whether it would be the two unlikely events of a staple vs relative seniority, none of us will realize any benefits for a good time to come.

 

[Angus]

Get real.... LMAO!

Lear,

I read what Cometman posted and it was not a personal attack. You have the biggest conflict of interest on this site. Someone does not talk nice to one of your boy friends and you get upset and ban them for something they did not do. I sure hope you know your real name is all over other SWA forums and you are making quite a name for yourself without even being on the property. If you do not think management reads these sites....you are wrong again. Might want to change you plan of attack.

Southwest Airline Board Room - December 2010

Subject: Emergency Meeting regarding Flightinfo.com

Gary: "Get Herb on the phone IMMEDIATELY... we have a MAJOR problem".

Colleen: "What is it Gary?! Is there an issue with the FAA, fuel hedging, The AirTran merger?? What is it??

Gary: No nothing like that. Much more important. Lear70 banned Cometman for 7 days for a personal atatck against Ty Webb on Flightinfo, and we feel there might be a conflict of interest in his Moderating duties.....

Colleen: Oh my GOD!! NOOOOO.........!! Have we called all the Department Heads yet?

Gary: No not yet. We need Herb on the line for this. We may need to email the Flightinfo Webmaster.... this is SERIOUS!!

Colleen: Good thing we have Trained Specialists monitoring Flightinfo for these type of things... this could wreck havoc on our entire Operation.

Gary: We need to give Cometman our 100% support during this crisis...

Colleen: Good god man... how can we possibly do that? He claims to not even work for Southwest. Finding his identity could be impossible.

Gary: Well... we will be standing by during his 7 day ban to assist as we can. For now lets put heat on Lear70. We have his identity and will need to take swift prompt action...

Colleen: I am on it Gary....

Secretary: Ladies and Gentleman... Herb is on line 5.

Gary: Patch him through....

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

I read what Cometman posted and it was not a personal attack. You have the biggest conflict of interest on this site. Someone does not talk nice to one of your boy friends and you get upset and ban them for something they did not do. I sure hope you know your real name is all over other SWA forums and you are making quite a name for yourself without even being on the property. If you do not think management reads these sites....you are wrong again. Might want to change you plan of attack.

Yes, it was a personal attack, and I deleted it as such. Your comment above borders close on it as well. Boyfriends? Really? You think that's not hostile or a personal attack based on my sexual preference? I'm going to leave your post up as an EXAMPLE of what a personal attack is. Further attacks like this WILL be summarily deleted and result in a FI vacation. It doesn't matter if you fly for Southwest, AirTran, or Hong Kong Dog Crap Express, everyone gets treated the same way. Keep your posts on the TOPICS, not personal issues with individual posters.

I'm well aware that my name is on the other SWA forums (I've received phone calls from several friends who are SWA pilots), and most of what is being said is untrue and verifiable through public record. I'm not going to engage on those issues; no one wins those fights. As far as management listening, if they are, I'm sure the many positive things I've said about moving forward and contributing in a positive way to a great future is what they'll take from all this. I don't have a bad attitude, I'm letting the process work and not attacking my future coworkers, and I'm going out there and doing my job well and with a smile, and that's about all anyone can ask of a line pilot.

I'm sorry you can't see that, but I wish you the best of luck and a very Merry Christmas.

Regards,

 

[Lear70]

At appears to me as long as you , or :laugh: or, , or , or , you are allowed to throw passive aggressive insults. Interesting interpretation.

Sorry, sometimes it takes me a while to see a post that's offensive (I'm not on here all day, I do fly a regular line). Sometimes someone has to report it (I don't read every post in every thread, don't have that kind of time).

It's a volunteer position. If there were more of us, it would be easier, but there's not a lot of people who want to do it, and this is part of the reason: it's not a popular job, it's thankless, and often get people mad at you because they don't see the problem with their posts.

You can either be popular or you can do the job well, not really an option to do both. Some days I wonder why I'm doing it at all... really doesn't seem worth the angst.

 

[waveflyer]

Let me get this straight? The 1%ers here are taking Lear totask for his moderating or something more important? The whole reason I'm on FI anonymously is so I don't ever think about getting on the other forums----

Don't use the Internet to create conflict-- it's really dumb to rile yourself and the other 10% up

 

[waveflyer]

Angus- that was pretty funny-

 

[vetrider]

At appears to me as long as you , or :laugh: or, , or , or , you are allowed to throw passive aggressive insults. Interesting interpretation.

Anyways, all this concern about seniority integration will be dust in the wind in short order. I believe the real short term concern is integrating the two airlines together. And the FAA has much to do with when we turn on the one certificate switch. It will take potentially years for that to happen.

Even with a quick resolution to seniority issues, it will be much longer before we see the results of any seniority integration. I will guess that it will take two years before we work under one certificate. And until then, we will have two unions flying Southwest aircraft.

Whether it would be the two unlikely events of a staple vs relative seniority, none of us will realize any benefits for a good time to come.

SWA pilots could tie it up alot longer than that if they had a mind to.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Lear,
The funny thing is that you cannot see how much you "moderate" the SWA/AT threads.