The logic of relative seniority

[ASADFW7]

MCDU if you support DOH are you prepared to support Captains seats to be shifted to a more senior airline?

 

[St. Nic]

Insaity is not living by binding arbitration. Something the east failed to do. Insanity is thinking anything after 20 years and 2 furloughs and still only able to hold e190 f/o, making mesa type wages. Insanity is screwing over the pilots who saved your job.
Insanity is continuing to let us air operate. It should have died when America West purchased you!

USAirways would have come out just fine without MesaWest! That's a fact Jack! We have former Metrojet captains placed behind probationary pilots at MesaWest! Show me the logic in that??? You can't! DOH prevents the insanity

 

[doh]

Would that not be DOH then. If AAI started in 1993 then the top pilot would have a DOH of 1993. He would then start the ratio and he would be below all the SWA 1992 guys. Am I correct in that assumption?

Not in it's purest sense. It would be DOH up to 1992 and a ratio thereafter.

 

[doh]

USAirways would have come out just fine without MesaWest! That's a fact Jack! ...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! You were trying to make us laugh with that statement, weren't you?

 

[MCDU]

MCDU if you support DOH are you prepared to support Captains seats to be shifted to a more senior airline?

No, those seats get protected. That is why C and R's are so important.

M

 

[ackattacker]

I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but it's just not gonna work that way. All you AAI guys that think "the law requires relative seniority" are going to be sorely disappointed. The law requires a "fair and equitable" integration, and there is nothing fair nor equitable about relative seniority in this case. This isn't a merger of equals by any stretch of the imagination. It is a stronger company with the best pilot contract in the industry buying a weaker company with the worst pilot contract in the industry (that's what YOU bring to the table). All those inequities will be taken into account, and the ISL will reflect the extreme benefit that this acquisition is to all AAI pilot's career expectations - increasing said career expectations past any point that could have reasonably been expected had AAI remained a stand-alone carrier. To think that this process and/or an arbitration panel is going to ignore the numerous benefits to the AAI pilot group is just ludicrous. To expect and demand it is just greedy.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

I can understand the argument that a relative seniority integration is a windfall for the AirTran pilots. What I don't understand is why Southwest Pilots would begrudge someone else benefiting. Does it represent a *reduction* in your career expectations? Why does someone else being brought up to your level piss you off?

Here's a simplified analogy. You work at company where everybody does the same job and gets the same pay, no seniority system. Let's say you mop floors for $20 per hour. Your company buys another floor-mopping company which only pays $10 per hour. Everybody keeps their job. The guys from the other company get a raise to $20 per hour, same as you.

Is this a problem? Should you bitch and moan about how they should get only $15 per hour, and you should get $25 so everybody gets the same "benefit" from the merger? It's obvious to me that such an integration perpetuates an unfair situation instead of preserving a fair situation.

As for AirTran "bringing" a substandard contract or weak financial position, that makes no sense, they aren't bringing their contract with them and the only thing that matters going forward is the financial position of the new merged company.

 

[becket]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! You were trying to make us laugh with that statement, weren't you?

those crazy delusional sons a #### actually believe this . absolutely pathetic .

 

[Fubijaakr]

Not in it's purest sense. It would be DOH up to 1992 and a ratio thereafter.

Exactly. As a previous poster said, BOTH SWA and AAI have exactly the same career expectations....737 CA. So you can throw out that old saw. Pay rates? Another non-starter except in the minds of the "Staple 'em" crowd.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

USAirways would have come out just fine without MesaWest! That's a fact Jack!

You're right, they would have liquidated, along with their substandard wages and the catalyst for selling out pensions.
Too bad they just didn't go away like they were supposed to. They are a cancer to the industry and should have been left to die.

We have former Metrojet captains placed behind probationary pilots at MesaWest! Show me the logic in that???

Metrojet? What's that? Another failed idea by us airways? Is that after the first or second bankruptcy?

You can't! DOH prevents the insanity

The only thing your DOH brought to the merger was a furlough, sport. Well that, and substandard wages, loss of pension, 2 bankruptcies and the worst reputation the industry has, less the 1983 hires at CAL.
Your airline was days, yes days away from liquidation. America West saved you. And that's a fact Jack!

 

[Dash Power]

Is it also perceived as fair that I would be junior to someone who has 7 years less longevity? Or how about 2 years longevity. When does being junior to anyone with less longevity fair?

Spin that one into fairness please.

 

[St. Nic]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! You were trying to make us laugh with that statement, weren't you?

No, I was serious bud! MesaWest was facing bankrupcy and drew up a plan called Zanzibar if the deal with USAirways fell through. MesaWest was out of cash and against the ropes, now the PFTers want our captain seats. Talk about entitlement!!!

 

[St. Nic]

You're right, they would have liquidated, along with their substandard wages and the catalyst for selling out pensions.
Too bad they just didn't go away like they were supposed to. They are a cancer to the industry and should have been left to die.


Metrojet? What's that? Another failed idea by us airways? Is that after the first or second bankruptcy?



The only thing your DOH brought to the merger was a furlough, sport. Well that, and substandard wages, loss of pension, 2 bankruptcies and the worst reputation the industry has, less the 1983 hires at CAL.
Your airline was days, yes days away from liquidation. America West saved you. And that's a fact Jack!

You sound silly! You really do!! MesaWest was a drag on the whole industry, complete with their Australian strike breakers and Miami drunks! Now these guys want our captain seats and attrition THAT I SACRIFICED FOR!!! News flash, the greedy PFTers that couldnt get hired anywere else will NEVER get my captain upgrade!
USAPA is the best money ever spent!!! Goodbye ALPA, hello Date of HIre seniority.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

It's pretty obvious what their financial position is when they had several recent "capital calls" beacuse they required an infusion of large sums of money from its investors to stay afloat, and now this, the first announcement of a profitable quarter, their financial condition is very much different than AirTran, which has been profitable for 9 out of the last 10 years.

Jose, you want me to say something I disagree with. It ain't gonna happen.

Your continuous copping out speaks volumes.

Well since the whole scenario was hypotherical I suppose I could add that the theoretical AAI/VA acquisition occurs two years from now after 8 profitable quarters from VA. Would you then believe that VA/AAI would be fair? 08VA in front of 93AAI, 07VA capt over every single AAI FO (since your preaching seat protection).

Sound fair TY?

 

[Bwipilot]

Exactly. As a previous poster said, BOTH SWA and AAI have exactly the same career expectations....737 CA. So you can throw out that old saw. Pay rates? Another non-starter except in the minds of the "Staple 'em" crowd.

If pay rates don't matter, then why didn't AAI pilots agree to a contract several years ago?

I'd guess the fact that Airtran was subsidizing growth with lower payrates for the past several years with lower pay rates. That's reason number one that SWA pilots won't be happy with relative seniority. We bargained for a solid contract ten years ago while AAI pilots continued at basement wages--which allowed AAI to grow at a fast pace.

Having the AAI pilots trade their accecptance of substandard wages for increased seniority after the merger sets a bad precedent. Instead of bargaining for a good contracts, pilots will start negotiating for a contract that will put themselves in a good position after a merger.

 

[doh]

Bwipilot, I don't think you will get relative seniority. You will get a ratio. But I also don't think you will bump Trannies out of their captain seats either. I could be wrong on that score, but that is my prognostication.

 

[doh]

And yes, the ratio will start after the 1992 and senior SWA guys have been put on top of the heap.

 

[vv100]

Just keep talking Richard, or do they call you Dick over there?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You sound silly! You really do!! MesaWest was a drag on the whole industry, complete with their Australian strike breakers and Miami drunks!

Oh, and shooting holes in the sides of airplanes, threatning federal employees with an ax, selling out your pensions, and bringing the bar far lower with your pay scales was any better? Pullleeeezzze, you have far more in common with mesa than America West ever will. At least Mesa makes better wages. Oh, and sport, so does America West.

Now these guys want our captain seats and attrition THAT I SACRIFICED FOR!!!

Captain seat? Are you for real? Your captain seat is still 20 years away, and that's for the guys that have been there for 20 years. Nice try junior. Stick to your 190, build up that time, and maybe you'll get a job at a real paying airline, like mesa.

News flash, the greedy PFTers that couldnt get hired anywere else will NEVER get my captain upgrade!
USAPA is the best money ever spent!!! Goodbye ALPA, hello Date of HIre seniority.

News flash, your actions put you below the 1983 hires of CAL pilots. Nobody will ever want anything to do with your worthless POS airline. This time, there won't be another America West to rescue you. You are an embarressment to the industry with your pathetic payraises. At least your 737 captains make less than what a 5 year southwest f/o makes. There's something to be proud of.
Keep sending your union money, they need it with all the lawsuits they're attracting. I'll look forward to your demise, so the cancer you call us airways can no longer pollute the industry.

 

[Flopgut]

Is it also perceived as fair that I would be junior to someone who has 7 years less longevity? Or how about 2 years longevity. When does being junior to anyone with less longevity fair?

Spin that one into fairness please.

They can't! This is batpoop crazy....

I think you are speaking about longevity vs. relative seniority, I asked them about longevity vs. DOH. I don't think their brains can process anything but the same crap.

St. Nic has spent time on CAL/UAL threads claiming the "larger UAL pilot group is in control of the merger". He's in favor of deciding what the fair way to come up with something is after he makes certain it's going to get him the result he wants. Because DOH does not work in all cases.

If you've got something to lose in a pilot merger, you're going to lose it! Sucks, but that's the way it is. SWA and CAL pilots are going to be worse off after these mergers. And to top it off, we'll have to be the ones that have the professionalism to keep the thing going.

Worst time in the history of this profession....

 

[Lear70]

Just keep talking Richard, or do they call you Dick over there?

You talkin' to me? YOU TALKIN' TO ME??