The Bashing Begins

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I don't care which way you cut it, 5 failures shows a trend. It's just denial and accepting mediocrity to say anything otherwise.

Another interesting side fact, the FO's that I flew with at 9E that were the farthest behind the airplane were the middle-aged ex-gulfstream FOs that had done a career change. The learning curve is just too slow at that age without years of experience to fall back on. They typically made up for their lack of ability with attitude and desire to learn, but that doesn't mean they belong there and especially did not have adequate command capability until many more hours than their peers.

Of course there were a few exceptions (I'm thinking of a couple as I type this), but the overall trend was too great to not notice.

 

[motch]

Please don't forget that there were TWO pilots on that Flight Deck... either one could and should have prevented that accident IF it wasn't a system or weather issue.

I expect tomorrows briefing to be an eye opener. It will be VERY interesting to see how the media reacts, and how ALPA National handles the possible backlash.

Accidents don't happen for one mistake. It's takes a chain of events to lead up to a crash and deaths...
There were probably many places where this accident could have been prevented.

Basic Flight School
Advanced Flight Training
Hiring
Training at the airline in Question
Crew Compliment
Scheduling
Fatigue
Experience
Professionalism

etc...

We as an industry need to learn from this so it doesn't happen again.
Keep in mind, ANY of US could have been apassenger or jumpseater on that flight or have had family on that flight~

Always
Motch

 

[ehaecker]

No, the fact that you have managed to fly all grandad's planes (Pitts, Stearman, Blah, and Blah, and Blah) on the weekend makes you a Yeager/Hoover. (BTW-it has been a while since I have seen a jet with a tailwheel-so who the hell cares?)

The fact that you have identified yourself as an "RJ FO" makes you a Neil Armstrong/Buzz Aldrin.

The fact that you show up to work with spikey hair, an I-Pod and little blinking wheels on your roll-a-board just makes you a tool.....

-Go back to "nick-at-nite" and leave your daddy's computer alone!

How grown up of you! Did you come up with that on your own?

I'm sure everybody appreciates your contribution to the discussion.

Maybe you should just go back to killing kittens in your step-mom's basement and leave the discussion to the real pilots since you have nothing productive to add.

 

[skiandsurf]

Please don't forget that there were TWO pilots on that Flight Deck... either one could and should have prevented that accident IF it wasn't a system or weather issue.

I expect tomorrows briefing to be an eye opener. It will be VERY interesting to see how the media reacts, and how ALPA National handles the possible backlash.

Accidents don't happen for one mistake. It's takes a chain of events to lead up to a crash and deaths...
There were probably many places where this accident could have been prevented.

Basic Flight School
Advanced Flight Training
Hiring
Training at the airline in Question
Crew Compliment
Scheduling
Fatigue
Experience
Professionalism

etc...

We as an industry need to learn from this so it doesn't happen again.
Keep in mind, ANY of US could have been apassenger or jumpseater on that flight or have had family on that flight~

Always
Motch

I have a feeling (this is pure guessing) that there was a lot of talking, possible argueing, going on in that cockpit. It seems that this investigation has had information given out at much faster pace.....possibly because the mistakes were so blatant on the CVR and maybe the CVRs discussions/arguements made the investigation fast and easy.

 

[Max Powers]

So you are saying it is OK to fail 5 check rides? Sure I can understand busting the CFI for 8's on or whatever, but 5 checkrides???
In this industry, we are trained to detect a chain of events (mistakes), and break that chain before it leads to an accident. I would say 5 failures is a good start to that chain...
If my opinion makes me a Yeager or Hoover, fine. We need more Yeagers and Hoovers.

Yea I'm saying it's ok to fail 5 check rides. Especially when the training is sub standard and not enough. Look if your going to hire someone a bit slower or someone with less experience you need to train them properly not cheaply.

 

[Max Powers]

How grown up of you! Did you come up with that on your own?

I'm sure everybody appreciates your contribution to the discussion.

Maybe you should just go back to killing kittens in your step-mom's basement and leave the discussion to the real pilots since you have nothing productive to add.

Yes I agree with the comment from the last guy about you.....YOUR a RJ FO with 2000 hours.

 

[UnstableAviator]

I love the way everyone here is dancing around the reality. Some pilots just don't have it, and never will. Who here hasn't been in the sim with a lousy stick and cringed at their sub-par performance....yet they still pass.

Also, learning more advanced skills later in life isn't easy either. Unfortunately, we all suffer from declined mental performance and abilities with age and starting out in a career such as aviation in your mid 40's isn't going to be easy. We've also all had older students, or even co-pilots, who were older and new and even though they have a wealth of life experience, the flying skills and mental work were just a little behind the curve.

 

[Axel]

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2005/A05_01_02.pdf

There was an Eagle Jetstream that crashed approaching RDU in 1994. When the CA went to 100% on the condition levers with the throttles at idle there was a transient NTS event (not uncommon with Garrett engines) which he misidentified as an engine failure. He then failed to properly execute the engine out procedure and stalled the airplane.

The investigation showed that he had been fired from Comair (I think? Some other regional, at any rate.) for excessive checkride failures. He was then hired by Eagle.

[SIZE=-1] 1833:33.3[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Why's that ignition light on? We just had a flame-out? [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:38.4[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]I'm not sure what's goin' on with it. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:39.8[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]We had a flame-out. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:40.7[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Low-frequency beat sound similar to propellers rotating out of synchronization starts and continues for approximately eight seconds.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:41.4[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]'K, you got it? [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:42.5[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Yeah. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:42.8[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]We lose an engine? [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:43.6[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]OK, yeah. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:45.2[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]OK, uh ... [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:46.0[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]I'm gonna turn that ... [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:46.5[/SIZE] CAPT: [SIZE=-1]See if that, turn on the auto
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1833:54.2[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]We lose that en' left one? [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:55.9[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Yeah. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1833:58.9[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Watta you want me to do, you gonna continue? [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834 : 0.1[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]OK, yeah. I'm gonna continue. Just back me up. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834 : 03.1[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]All right, I'm gonna ... [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 03.7[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Low-frequency beat sound similar to propellers rotating out of synchronization starts and continues for approximately three seconds.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834 : 03.9[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]* let's go missed approach. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 05.0[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]All right. **. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 05.3[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to single stall warning horn starts and continues for 0.7 seconds.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 05.7[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Set max power. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 06.1[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to single stall warning horn starts and continues for 0.3 seconds.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 06.5[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Lower the nose, lower the nose, lower the nose. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 09.4[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to single stall warning starts.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 09.6[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to dual stall warning horns starts.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834: 09.8[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]You got it?[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
1834:10.8[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAPT:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Yeah. [/SIZE]
1834:12.2 FO: Lower the nose. [SIZE=-1]
1834:13.2[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]It's the wrong, wrong foot, wrong engine *[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
1834:14.7[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to dual stall warning horns stops.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:14.8[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Low-frequency beat sound similar to propellers rotating out of synchronization starts and continues for approximately four seconds.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:14.9[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to single stall warning stops.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:16.1[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to dual stall warning horns starts.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:16.3[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]HOT-B:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound of heavy breathing] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:17.6[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to dual stall warning horns stops and single horn continues.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:18.2[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to dual stall warning horns starts.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:18.9[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]FO:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]Here. [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:19.6[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to dual stall warning stops.][/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
1834:22.3[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] [Sound similar to dual stall warning horns start and continues to impact.] [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]
1834:24.4[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]CAM:[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1][Sound of impact.]

[/SIZE] If memory serves PRIA came, at least in part, from that.

 

[Axel]

I don't know what the Colgan contract says about unsat rides, but my contract says initial new-hires get one retake. If they unsat they can be (and historically are) fired.

Upgrades get one retake. If that is unsat they get a FO ride. If that is unsat they can be (and historically are) fired. If they pass the FO ride, they are downgraded for 6 months.

That is 3 consecutive unsat's for an upgrade candidate to get fired.

If they pass the FO ride, then unsat on the next upgrade ride, they get another retake. If they fail that they can be (and historically are) fired.

That is 4 out of 5 unsat's to get fired.

 

[Baronman]

The latest articles are now saying the Capt was too busy hitting on the FO during the last minutes of flight.

 

[climbhappy]

the eagle Jetstream crash didn't have to happen. The NTS lights routinely came on at flight idle... all you have to do is push to power up... can't believe they didn't see normal oil pressure or temp... normal indications and killed the recent Bassmasters champion.... it sucked..

 

[crj567]

How grown up of you! Did you come up with that on your own?

I'm sure everybody appreciates your contribution to the discussion.

Maybe you should just go back to killing kittens in your step-mom's basement and leave the discussion to the real pilots since you have nothing productive to add.

I'll go back to my kitten-killing if you go back to ground-looping grandpappy's planes and leave the adults alone..... We are having a discussion here that your little trust fund doesn't really enter into.

Maybe you should wait until you have more thousands of hours than you can count on one hand before passing judgement on adults.

-There is no doubt you went to 'riddle. I'm pretty sure they issue those little "blinky wheels" for your roll-a-boards down there. Do you have a class ring with a similar blinky function?
-Cute....

 

[nimtz]

The latest articles are now saying the Capt was too busy hitting on the FO during the last minutes of flight.

I heard this about a month ago. I prayed that either it wasn't true or that the NTSB would not release the full transcript of the CVR. If true, throw that on top of this thing and the profession will look real, real bad.

 

[Papa Woody]

If only the flying public knew the true cost of their low fares!

 

[701EV]

Pappa, you are so right!

You get what you pay for.

701EV