The Bashing Begins

[Whistlin' Dan]

The news channels are starting to bash the captain of the Colgan crash. Apparently he failed 5 checkrides in his life. The implication is that he should have had his lively hood taken away from him. They don't point out that he must have passed the checkride on the next time through.

That makes for good press, but it's not as relevent to the real causes of the crash as the general public might think. We don't know who did the check-rides, or what (if anything) the reasons for the failures were. There really is no "standard of accountability" in most flight standards departments. Standards of performance, yes, but of accountability, NO.

Who checks the "checkers?"

There's not a space shuttle pilot out there whose training history is unblemished - a history of absolute, 100%, first-time demonstration of mastery of the skills and tasks necessary to fly an orbital mission. Yet, when one of those things blows apart, we don't see CNN saying that "Commander Scobee had to re-accomplish this-or-that task when in space shuttle training several years before the doomed mission" Nor do you have to look very far to find CNN's own screw-ups, they're all over YouTube.

Likewise, I'm pretty sure that the WSJ has had to publish more than 5 corrections or retractions in the time that the Colgan pilot had been active in aviation, but you won't see them trumpeted on their front pages.

We don't know who did this guys training, what training was accomplished, or what standards were applied. Let's cut him some slack until all the facts are in. And I doubt all the facts will ever be "in."

 

[Cardinal]

Whistlin' Dan Roman, awesome username. Nobody expects pefection - airline pilots are allowed minor errors, and the system is built so as to allow the recognition and correction of these. Significant, uncorrected errors are what lead to checkride busts (in the mean, and this Capt. has provided us with a large enough sample size of busts to assume that most were fair). Significant uncorrected errors also lead to catastrophic accidents. I see plenty of correlation.

 

[lowlycfi]

I'm just curious what everyone thinks the magic number is as far as failed checkrides? If 5 is too many, than what is an acceptable number? 4? 2? None?

 

[Browntothebone]

I'm just curious what everyone thinks the magic number is as far as failed checkrides? If 5 is too many, than what is an acceptable number? 4? 2? None?

None.

 

[rondo]

....

GA busts are too subjective to be counted on as proper examination of an applicant. Some DE's are in for the busts and the money. Total conflict of interest.

121 rides are way more indicative of a pilot's skill than those GA rides.

Agree with you on that. GA rides should be in a different category then 121. Some guy screws up a hold on an instrument ride. Come on.

However, if you start busting 121 or professional rides that's a different story. Pax are paying for a ticket not a chance.

Did this guy fail 121 rides?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Agree with you on that. GA rides should be in a different category then 121. Some guy screws up a hold on an instrument ride. Come on.

However, if you start busting 121 or professional rides that's a different story. Pax are paying for a ticket not a chance.

Did this guy fail 121 rides?

2 at Colgan.

 

[Wesb737fo]

The title of this thread is let the bashing begin. I think the bashing should be directed toward airline management.

 

[rondo]

?

2 at Colgan.

Wow, that's pretty bad. What did he bust? Upgrade, recurrent.

2 121 busts and he's a Captain. What's going on in that training department?

 

[GogglesPisano]

I'm just curious what everyone thinks the magic number is as far as failed checkrides? If 5 is too many, than what is an acceptable number? 4? 2? None?

Until checkrides and those who administer them are as objective as a computer, then there is no magic number. There are plenty of guys on FI who are ACA alumni, who went through ACA's "Pink Badge of Courage," program in the CRJ in the 1998-2004 timeframe. A time when 50% of applicants busted at the hands of two miserable subhuman checkairman run amock. Your chance of passing had very little to do with skill and judgement but more to do with luck and the mood of the examiner.

Management finally started looking at training costs when things got tight and the word came down from on high: Fix this problem. Within a year the two subhumans were gone and orals were replaced by electronic validations. Checkrides resembled something fair once again.

Checkrides at World were no picnic, either.

The idea that 121 checkrides are completely fair is nieve. That being said, it's been my experience that the bigger the company, the more fair and objective the training department. At Delta a checkride is almost a non-event, certainly when compared to the "ordeal by fire" at ACA.

Now please feel free to continue ragging on a dead guy.

 

[lowlycfi]

Until checkrides and those who administer them are as objective as a computer, then there is no magic number. There are plenty of guys on FI who are ACA alumni, who went through ACA's "Pink Badge of Courage," program in the CRJ in the 1998-2004 timeframe. A time when 50% of applicants busted at the hands of two miserable subhuman checkairman run amock. Your chance of passing had very little to do with skill and judgement but more to do with luck and the mood of the examiner.

Management finally started looking at training costs when things got tight and the word came down from on high: Fix this problem. Within a year the two subhumans were gone and orals were replaced by electronic validations. Checkrides resembled something fair once again.

Checkrides at World were no picnic, either.

The idea that 121 checkrides are completely fair is nieve. That being said, it's been my experience that the bigger the company, the more fair and objective the training department. At Delta a checkride is almost a non-event, certainly when compared to the "ordeal by fire" at ACA.

Now please feel free to continue ragging on a dead guy.

Good post. I agree that there are many checkrides both in and out of the 121 world that are not very objective.

Please understand that I wasn't ragging on anyone. Just trying to understand where some of these posters on this thread are coming from.