The Bashing Begins

[ksu_aviator]

The news channels are starting to bash the captain of the Colgan crash. Apparently he failed 5 checkrides in his life. The implication is that he should have had his lively hood taken away from him. They don't point out that he must have passed the checkride on the next time through.

 

[ehaecker]

5 failures is a lot...

 

[79%N1]

The guy messed up. Whether or not past checkrides were an indicator of any poor future performance, it looks as though his actions and inattention caused the crash and loss of lives. Why tip toe around that. The plane didn't crash itself. I'm sorry it happened, but lets be real here.

And don't flame away on me. Can I make a mistake? Yes. Have I? Yes. But it looks as though these are the facts here.

 

[V-1]

Five checkrides over what period of time?

 

[WSurf]

Wonder in the CVR Transcript if the FO told the Captain to watch his speed? Its a crew up there and for two people that are on an approach wouldn't you think that somewhere in the scan somebody would have noticed the airpseed.

This sad, very sad.

 

[Fubijaakr]

And why did he fail? Piloting skills? Maybe not.

A lot of Capt. checkrides are flunked these days for "crew management" issues. Perhaps he had a weak F/O that sim day and they couldn't get stuff done. Don't automatically assume a failed airline checkride is due to lack of stick and rudder skills.

 

[Avi8tor2000]

If you fail 5 checkrides you should have your livelihood taken away from you if your livelihood includes sitting in the left seat of an airplane flying paying passengers around. Not everybody who wants to do this job should do this job. It has turned into a "profession" where anybody who can qualify for a $60,000 loan is allowed to be an airline pilot. That's not a good thing.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The captain of PCL 3701 also had multiple failures. I believe he failed at least 6 checkrides.


http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/317489.pdf

 

[Avi8tor2000]

6 and a termination.

 

[Skippy]

so i guess a dr who inadvertently kills someone shoudlnt be allowed to practice-- how may times have the wrong limbs been amputated?

and a lawyer who allows a guilty man free and a not guilty man jailed should be disbarred?

and tilton who loses billions shoulde be fired?


GMAFB.


SKIPPY

 

[Amish RakeFight]

It sounds to me like the captain hit his early 40's, enrolled in a flight academy with a bridge program to Colgan and upgraded into the Q400 with barely 100 hours in the airframe. Yikes. To top it off, he failed 5 rides along the way.

Capt. Renslow, 47, joined Colgan in September 2005 after graduating from a pilot-training academy, employment records show. He had a history of flunking check rides -- periodic tests of competency that are also required anytime a pilot begins flying a new type of aircraft. Before joining Colgan, he failed three proficiency checks on general aviation aircraft administered by the FAA, according to investigators and the airline.

 

[HockleyPilot]

GA busts are too subjective to be counted on as proper examination of an applicant. Some DE's are in for the busts and the money. Total conflict of interest.

121 rides are way more indicative of a pilot's skill than those GA rides.

 

[CX880]

It sounds to me like the captain hit his early 40's, enrolled in a flight academy with a bridge program to Colgan and upgraded into the Q400 with barely 100 hours in the airframe. Yikes. To top it off, he failed 5 rides along the way.

Yea. Makes you wonder if Colgan was his only choice.... I have to say that failing one tprop training is not all that unusual as an initial. Not only is it harder to learn if you only have a few hundred hours of airplane experience but if the company has little resources then it makes it that much harder. Plus failure rates for Tprop upgrades I'm assuming are high as well so it could have been that he just had bad luck. He did pass the Q400 upgrade training.

 

[Corbon]

GA busts are too subjective to be counted on as proper examination of an applicant. Some DE's are in for the busts and the money. Total conflict of interest.

121 rides are way more indicative of a pilot's skill than those GA rides.

True but if he failed three at the GA level, then he must have failed two at Colgan. That kind of pattern leads me to believe he should have seriously contemplated a different career change. As said a few posts above, not everybody is cut out for this job, no matter how much money they have to throw at it.

5 busted rides, you get 5 re-trains and 5 do-overs. 1 bad bust in real life, you, your passengers and crew end up dead. Of course pilots with perfect records can do the same thing, and everybody can have a bad day in the box, but given this info, these failures cannot be dismissed as contributing factors.

 

[HockleyPilot]

True but if he failed three at the GA level, then he must have failed two at Colgan. That kind of pattern leads me to believe he should have seriously contemplated a different career change. As said a few posts above, not everybody is cut out for this job, no matter how much money they have to throw at it.

5 busted rides, you get 5 re-trains and 5 do-overs. 1 bad bust in real life, you, your passengers and crew end up dead. Of course pilots with perfect records can do the same thing, and everybody can have a bad day in the box, but given this info, these failures cannot be dismissed as contributing factors.

Agreed.

 

[time builder]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30683954/

"The newspaper found that Renslow had failed in his first attempt to qualify as a co-pilot in the Beech-1900 aircraft and he had to re-do his check-ride to upgrade to captain of a Saab 340-TurboProp. Colgan's spokesman told the Journal that the company believes Renslow failed to fully disclose that poor performance when applying for a job."


Just passing on info at this point.

 

[ehaecker]

GA or not, 5 busts is absolutely unacceptable. Checkrides aren't hard to pass. They test to minimum standards. If you fail to meet minimum standards - 5 times, perhaps you aren't cut out to be a pilot, let alone a professional pilot.
Perhaps that is the problem with "zero to hero" puppy mills. They train for a checkride. Nothing more, nothing less. The ability to pass a checkride is a very small part of what is required to be a good pilot. Unfortunately, academy students cheat themselves out of any chance to learn from a truly old and wise pilot. It is babies teaching babies.

 

[MEXICANFLYBOY]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30683954/

"The newspaper found that Renslow had failed in his first attempt to qualify as a co-pilot in the Beech-1900 aircraft and he had to re-do his check-ride to upgrade to captain of a Saab 340-TurboProp. Colgan's spokesman told the Journal that the company believes Renslow failed to fully disclose that poor performance when applying for a job."


Just passing on info at this point.

thanks for the info! its kind of hard to believe! the NTSB report out yet?

 

[FO 4 Life]

GA or not, 5 busts is absolutely unacceptable. Checkrides aren't hard to pass. They test to minimum standards. If you fail to meet minimum standards - 5 times, perhaps you aren't cut out to be a pilot, let alone a professional pilot.

Let's say 1 CFI bust since it's what 70-90% fail depending on where you are. 1 for a screwing up an approach or 8's on pylons who knows. Busting a captain upgrade - I've seen a captain bust for forgetting to tell the "ground crew" to disconnect the GPU before pushing or for misidentifying a hung start as a hot start. CRM doesn't really exist for type rides. I've seen a 20 yr UPS captain bust a PC. Things happen.

The more I think the more I come up with. A guy busted his type ride in a 727 for dragging an outboard flap/wingtip on landing. The DE even said he knew it was a sim glitch but had to bust him anyway.

I guess everyone here has the last name Yeager or Hoover.

 

[ehaecker]

So you are saying it is OK to fail 5 check rides? Sure I can understand busting the CFI for 8's on or whatever, but 5 checkrides???
In this industry, we are trained to detect a chain of events (mistakes), and break that chain before it leads to an accident. I would say 5 failures is a good start to that chain...
If my opinion makes me a Yeager or Hoover, fine. We need more Yeagers and Hoovers.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah, but even Yeager ran his P-51 off of the runway. Sh!t happens. I'm against the puppy mills but I'm also not perfect. I honestly feel bad for the guy, his crew, and his family, the vultures are circling.

 

[Baronman]

Not directly related to the Colgan accident but come on...There are lots of people in this career that shouldn't be here but are because they were friendly, had a good attitude and could pay the training costs. Fail a checkride, retrain, good to go to the next level and do it again....Then when regionals need bodies they get into a 121 job.

You've never been in the sim with a partner who couldn't quite get a V1 cut down? Or the single engine landing to mins ended up with the plane banking like hell to get aligned at the last minute? I mean...we know the engine failiure/fire is about to happen in the sim yet they still can't quite get the plane in a satisfactory position. Over and over....But eventually they get it to come out "satisfactorily." You're telling me the day when it really happens, when they have no idea it's coming, that same guy is going to nail it? I'd put my money on the guy who could do it in the sim the first time.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If the shake up in the Colgan Training Dept. is any indication, they're going to take a big hit on this one.

 

[ehaecker]

They said the guy had been at Colgan since 2005. Since he went through a puppy mill, that means he was probably just a student pilot in 2004. That means he has failed a checkride every year since he has been a pilot. That should raise anybody's eyebrow. That many failures over such a short period of time would indicate that his failures were more than just a simple case of s**t happens.

 

[V-1]

Welcome to the future of the aviation industry.

 

[LearLove]

not that it matters but,

Yeah, but even Yeager ran his P-51 off of the runway.

I may be wrong but I think it was a T-6 down in GA somewhere (5 or more years ago) and it went off the side of the runway (and ground looped - strong x-wind). Or do you know of another incident?

 

[Morettis]

The only checkride I've ever failed was my first multi engine stage check back when I had all of 70 hours probably. In the 3000+ hours since then I've passed every one on the first try including my single pilot type ride in the Metro. There's just no excuse for screwin 5 checkrides, they aren't hard, you know exactly what you're going to have to do and exactly whats expected of you well before you ever get near the plane.

Isn't this the exact reason that PRIA was created for? Whats the point if airlines don't care?

 

[veneratio]

5 is way way way too much.

 

[Gobi Gred]

Unfortunately I think this accident shows that recent up and coming pilots are not getting "seasoned" enough. Years ago you really had to pay your dues if you wanted to make it even to a good regional flying turboprops. Normally someone would spend years instructing then they maybe would move on to charter, banner towing, freight, etc. After acummulating around 3000 hours you would be competitive for a good regional. Then it might be another few years before you upgraded. What you saw in the last few years was new pilots instructing a bit and then heading straight to the right seat of a big complex turboprop or regional jet. I have lost count of how many FOs I have flown with in the last few years that have that type of background. A lot of them are good pilots and can handle the airplane fine but frankly there are times when it is painfully obvious that they are not seasoned pilots. There is no substitute for good ole fashioned hours and experience. I don't care what high priced school you went to. I agree that 5 failures is a lot considering the length of this captain's career. I would argue that perhaps his failures weren't always necessarily due to incompetence, but rather simply taking on more than he should of.

 

[V-1]

Just prior to age 65 the industry was hiring three hundred hour pilots who had been trained by three hundred hour pilots. There's a veritable cornucopia of experience and knowledge from which to learn.