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Terrorists are practicing....
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Typhoon1244
Member in Good Standing
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Jesus, am I glad somebody finally cleared that up! All this time I thought it was bin Laden and al Qaeda. What's everbody waiting for? Let's go find this ATL2CDG SOB and his kind and string 'em up by their gonads! Then all terrorism will stop.100LL... Again! said:
Okay, having said that...
ATL2CDG, believe me, I sympathize with you, but there comes a time when you have to be realistic. If the 9/11 hijackers had been an equal-opportunity bunch, I'd be right there with you decrying the evils of "profiling." But the fact is that our country (and a lot of other countries, for that matter) have been getting kicked in the teeth by middle eastern men age 17-to-40 for three decades or more. Whether anybody likes it or not, they warrant special attention when it comes to transportation (airlines, cruise ships, rail, etc.). Profiling would suck for the law-abiding Arab-American...but as with so many things, a handful of radical as_holes has ruined it for everybody else.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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That was my point typhoon, although I used ATL's over the top style that he seems to like so well.
Point is, it IS the PC types such as Mr. ATL who would have screamed bloody murder had GWB pre-emptively locked up these 'poor, innocent' arabs who just wanted to get their pilot's licenses.
Therefore, they bear greater responsibility in the security breakdown that led to 9-11.
Simply put, the security apparatus in this country could not do what it needed to do, because it was hamstrung by the liberal activist mentality.
Look at what they are doing to John Ashcroft. A great American by the way.
Point is, it IS the PC types such as Mr. ATL who would have screamed bloody murder had GWB pre-emptively locked up these 'poor, innocent' arabs who just wanted to get their pilot's licenses.
Therefore, they bear greater responsibility in the security breakdown that led to 9-11.
Simply put, the security apparatus in this country could not do what it needed to do, because it was hamstrung by the liberal activist mentality.
Look at what they are doing to John Ashcroft. A great American by the way.
ATL2CDG
Life's wastebucket
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 243
100LL... Again! said:
*gag*
You think the Rev. Ashcroft is good for this country? Sure... if you like the suspension of basic civil rights, privacy laws and government neutrality in the world of religion.
*laughs*
Iran called. They wanted their extremist theocratic ideas back.
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Cactus-Wrench
Now LUV-Wrench :)
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2004
- Posts
- 39
C R U D, that's an ugly article, but the sad truth is that until the feds can implement policys without having to get approval of civil right leaders, activists, liberals, etc, were just spinning our heels frisking little old ladies old wwii vets.
Anybody that's works in this industry knows that the only real change since 911 is public awareness, the rest is (like pillows and blankets) just public perception. Lord help us if the public gets lax.
Anybody that's works in this industry knows that the only real change since 911 is public awareness, the rest is (like pillows and blankets) just public perception. Lord help us if the public gets lax.
SammyG
I hope its big enough
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2002
- Posts
- 113
So many opinions, so much fear as to what we can do withouth putting our (and others) civil liberties at risk.
-The guys on this NWA flight were up to no good. Can anyone dispute this?
-No one got up and did anything about it. Why? Because they were A.) Afraid that ordering them to sit down and be quiet might cause them to go bezerk and blow try to blow up the plane..B.) Afraid of making the situation worse (they were signaling each other and emptying McDonalds bags into the lavs....whats worse than that....um....blowing up?)...C.) Afraid to be labeled a racist and arrested upon landing for violating the civil rights of VERY suscpicious people.
I'm sorry, and I know it's easy to say because I wasn't there. But isn't it conceivable, that if the situation occured as reported in the article, that there might be SOMEONE on the flight who wasn't afriad of these 3 things happening? SOMEONE, who figured A.) Better to try to get them to sit down in case they ARE trying to blow us up. B.) Better to to make the situation into an "event" than sit down and not find out what the obviously suspicious activity actually was, even if it turned out to be nothing. ...C.) Better to be labeled a racist and arrested on landing, during a flight where many wittnesses would testify as to the susicious activity, and would all probably support your "violation" of their civil liberties as opposed to gambling and allowing them to romp around and do whatever it was that they were doing.
Intresting irony here....We're afraid to profile Arabs, even though a considerable few of them mean us harm, because those who desire to use profiling to protect themselves are then profiled as racists because of the many truly stupid-ass, ignorant bigots that unfortunately outnumber us.
-The guys on this NWA flight were up to no good. Can anyone dispute this?
-No one got up and did anything about it. Why? Because they were A.) Afraid that ordering them to sit down and be quiet might cause them to go bezerk and blow try to blow up the plane..B.) Afraid of making the situation worse (they were signaling each other and emptying McDonalds bags into the lavs....whats worse than that....um....blowing up?)...C.) Afraid to be labeled a racist and arrested upon landing for violating the civil rights of VERY suscpicious people.
I'm sorry, and I know it's easy to say because I wasn't there. But isn't it conceivable, that if the situation occured as reported in the article, that there might be SOMEONE on the flight who wasn't afriad of these 3 things happening? SOMEONE, who figured A.) Better to try to get them to sit down in case they ARE trying to blow us up. B.) Better to to make the situation into an "event" than sit down and not find out what the obviously suspicious activity actually was, even if it turned out to be nothing. ...C.) Better to be labeled a racist and arrested on landing, during a flight where many wittnesses would testify as to the susicious activity, and would all probably support your "violation" of their civil liberties as opposed to gambling and allowing them to romp around and do whatever it was that they were doing.
Intresting irony here....We're afraid to profile Arabs, even though a considerable few of them mean us harm, because those who desire to use profiling to protect themselves are then profiled as racists because of the many truly stupid-ass, ignorant bigots that unfortunately outnumber us.
rumpletumbler
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
- Posts
- 1,209
To ensure we Americans never offend anyone - - - particularly fanatics intent on killing us - airport screeners will not be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, Airline pilots with proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal Of Honor winning former Governors.
Let's pause a moment and take the following test.
In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed, and thousands of people were killed by:
In 2002 the United States is looking in Afghanistan for:
In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
And don't forget the USS Cole....... Nope, no patterns anywhere to justify profiling.
Let's pause a moment and take the following test.
In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
- (a) Olga Korbut
- (b) Sitting Bull
- (c) Mahatma Gandhi
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
- (a) Flock Of Seagulls
- (b) Distraught Elvis fans
- (c) A tour bus full of grouchy 80-year-old women
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
- (a) Malcolm X
- (b) Militant lesbians
- (c) Andre The Giant
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
- (a) An Army Corporal
- (b) An M-80
- (c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
- (a) Captain Steubing
- (b) Captain Kidd
- (c) The Little Mermaid
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
- (a) Aristotle Onassis
- (b) Zorba The Greek
- (c) Mother Teresa
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
- (a) Maverick & Goose
- (b) Jack Daniels
- (c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
- (a) Crazy Horse
- (b) Tony Montana
- (c) Dennis Rodman
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
- (a) Mr. Rogers
- (b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
- (c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed, and thousands of people were killed by:
- (a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
- (b) The Klingons
- (c) Deadheads
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 2002 the United States is looking in Afghanistan for:
- (a) Chechnyans
- (b) Nigerian Christians
- (c) Enron employees
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
- (a) Bonny and Clyde
- (b) Pretty Boy Floyd
- (c) Floyd the Barber
- (d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
And don't forget the USS Cole....... Nope, no patterns anywhere to justify profiling.
Someone always posts that quiz and everytime it is lacking one very big thing.
Until 9/11 the largest act of terrorism against the US was committed by a WHITE male who served in the military.
You can profile all you want (and I agree some degree is warranted), but you still cannot rule out everyone else.
Peace!
Skeezer
Until 9/11 the largest act of terrorism against the US was committed by a WHITE male who served in the military.
You can profile all you want (and I agree some degree is warranted), but you still cannot rule out everyone else.
Peace!
Skeezer
rumpletumbler
Well-known member
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There are some who think that McVeigh and Nichols had ties with Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40. I've not read up on this particular conspiracy theory but I don't discount it. There are to many genuine conspiracy theorys (JFK, TWA 800) etc. to say that it isn't possible.
lamppost
Member
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2004
- Posts
- 22
we all lose
Maybe this planet is just getting too small for all the different ways of thought and the only way to settle everything is to start over. im sure the dinosours never saw it coming. maybe the next lifeform on this planet will do a better job. in the end what it seems to be coming down to is that WE have failed at living on this planet and dont deserve to be here anymore.
why cant we ALL just get along
Maybe this planet is just getting too small for all the different ways of thought and the only way to settle everything is to start over. im sure the dinosours never saw it coming. maybe the next lifeform on this planet will do a better job. in the end what it seems to be coming down to is that WE have failed at living on this planet and dont deserve to be here anymore.
why cant we ALL just get along
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- Feb 15, 2003
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Snakum
How's your marmott?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
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- 2,090
LMAO! I'll give you that one. A$$croft scares the hell out of me, too. Now, back to this thing about you being responsible for 9/11 ... does the FAA know this? Given the hell I'm going thru for a misdemeanor eleven years ago, I'm betting they'd make you bring a note from your mother, or at the very least, take away your birthday for two years running.
You and I disagree on profiling ATL, but thank God/Mohommad/Buddha that this doesn't mean we have to trade personal insults a la 100LickMyNuts. Debate is good for a society.
Minh
Hey all,
Any of you lot thought that this ?lady? being a journo and all might have just been trying to sell newspapers. A novel idea I know but wouldn't be the first time that a paper from either side of the political fence had written something to sell news.
Remember news organisations want your money first and fore most, the truth I am sure comes somewhere in the top ten of what they are doing.
As for the Timothy McVeigh argument, that I believe was also initially blamed on Arab men as was the pipe-bomb attack at the Olympics, and the anthrax scares as that is all they are really, would also seem to be conducted by white non-arab men.
Amazing what a little bit of paranoia can do. It's the Arabs It's the Arabs.
Reminds me if you say it enough times people believe it.
I am under no illusion that screening must be conducted, but I am also under no illusion that what is going on at airports is cosmetic, it looks nice but what is it really doing?
Some of the people who vote to the right on this board seem to be having a go at some of the left voting people, talking about conspiracies etc.
I would say that trying to link McVeigh to Alqueda is the most laughable conspiracy I have heard.
The guy was militia, he hated the US government, he went to a federal building and blew it up.
So the militia got caught with their pants down, someone actually took the message seriously and blew something up. Rather than just sitting around drinking bud and watching NASCAR and bitching about the government.
You have a go at ATL2CDG for being an FA, well belive me it is a harder job than being a pilot.
I have worked as a Doorman(nightclub), Barman, Supermarket checkout, Biology teacher, to pay for my training. Working as a servant to some idiot has been a lot harder then ever being a pilot. On top of that thet FA then has to put up with the asses up front, including me when I am having a bad day.
You think that because you sit up front and wear stripes that you are something special, please most well trained chimps could do that, just look at NASA that is who they sent into space first as they knew that they wouldn't screw it up, being nice to someone one who is being a complete tool is a lot harder.
Anyways rant over,
I am sure if someone could be botherd that a similiar list could be publised showing white males as being just as bad.
-273
Any of you lot thought that this ?lady? being a journo and all might have just been trying to sell newspapers. A novel idea I know but wouldn't be the first time that a paper from either side of the political fence had written something to sell news.
Remember news organisations want your money first and fore most, the truth I am sure comes somewhere in the top ten of what they are doing.
As for the Timothy McVeigh argument, that I believe was also initially blamed on Arab men as was the pipe-bomb attack at the Olympics, and the anthrax scares as that is all they are really, would also seem to be conducted by white non-arab men.
Amazing what a little bit of paranoia can do. It's the Arabs It's the Arabs.
Reminds me if you say it enough times people believe it.
I am under no illusion that screening must be conducted, but I am also under no illusion that what is going on at airports is cosmetic, it looks nice but what is it really doing?
Some of the people who vote to the right on this board seem to be having a go at some of the left voting people, talking about conspiracies etc.
I would say that trying to link McVeigh to Alqueda is the most laughable conspiracy I have heard.
The guy was militia, he hated the US government, he went to a federal building and blew it up.
So the militia got caught with their pants down, someone actually took the message seriously and blew something up. Rather than just sitting around drinking bud and watching NASCAR and bitching about the government.
You have a go at ATL2CDG for being an FA, well belive me it is a harder job than being a pilot.
I have worked as a Doorman(nightclub), Barman, Supermarket checkout, Biology teacher, to pay for my training. Working as a servant to some idiot has been a lot harder then ever being a pilot. On top of that thet FA then has to put up with the asses up front, including me when I am having a bad day.
You think that because you sit up front and wear stripes that you are something special, please most well trained chimps could do that, just look at NASA that is who they sent into space first as they knew that they wouldn't screw it up, being nice to someone one who is being a complete tool is a lot harder.
Anyways rant over,
I am sure if someone could be botherd that a similiar list could be publised showing white males as being just as bad.
-273
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
You bet, man.
Ashcroft is the guy to get it done.
As a matter of fact, he and I are on close personal terms, so I have asked him to look up your identity and throw you in the klink.
Again, I am not here to educate, you. It is not possible to educate the willingly ignorant.
I just want to be on record so I can give you a big I-told-you-so later.
Snakum and atl2--- are not worthy to sweep Ashcroft's driveway.
Losers. Your political opinions are nothing but pseudo-intellectual fashion statements.
Masters of hyperbole you are, yet reason somehow escapes you.
Ashcroft is the guy to get it done.
As a matter of fact, he and I are on close personal terms, so I have asked him to look up your identity and throw you in the klink.
Again, I am not here to educate, you. It is not possible to educate the willingly ignorant.
I just want to be on record so I can give you a big I-told-you-so later.
Snakum and atl2--- are not worthy to sweep Ashcroft's driveway.
Losers. Your political opinions are nothing but pseudo-intellectual fashion statements.
Masters of hyperbole you are, yet reason somehow escapes you.
labbats
Zulu who?
- Joined
- May 25, 2003
- Posts
- 2,593
I live by a few rules. One of them is not to trust anything off the internet that seems fishy. And this seems fishy. Point me to a hard copy of this and I'll bite.
Are you honestly going to tell me that a trial run by some of the masterminds of terrorism would have no less than 14 middle eastern men on one flight acting crazy-suspicious? Last time I checked, burglars don't wear neon-green sweatsuits and sing out loud.
Are you honestly going to tell me that a trial run by some of the masterminds of terrorism would have no less than 14 middle eastern men on one flight acting crazy-suspicious? Last time I checked, burglars don't wear neon-green sweatsuits and sing out loud.
FN FAL
Freight Dawgs Rule
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2003
- Posts
- 8,573
I am offended and emotionally harmed by this statement. Your total lack of sensitivity towards the feelings of well trained chimps has left me feeling that the only thing that will make me feel whole again is some money. After I get done with my next drink, I'm e-mailing Johnny Cochrane...
Knock yourself out, literally!
If Johnny can get any money out of me I will take it as the second coming, because it will surely be a miracle. Blood from a stone, I am Scottish and we are know as a tight fisted bunch.
Anyways I would think by looking at some of the people who post here that some of those Astronaut chimps had more flight time and experience.
Have a good evening and remember drink and politics don't mix.
-273
If Johnny can get any money out of me I will take it as the second coming, because it will surely be a miracle. Blood from a stone, I am Scottish and we are know as a tight fisted bunch.
Anyways I would think by looking at some of the people who post here that some of those Astronaut chimps had more flight time and experience.
Have a good evening and remember drink and politics don't mix.
-273
Snakum
How's your marmott?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Posts
- 2,090
Why is it that ATL and I can disagree and still be respectful, still act like the educated adults that we are, yet as usual ... you gotta go name calling. Well you asked for it ...
100LL, you are obviously still upset about that thing with me and your old lady, and as you know, I have apologized already and I will apologize again for sending you the doctor's bill when she gave me the drip. I know that was really rubbing it in, and it was a bit immature. But you must understand, I too was upset to learn that she'd also done half of CLT's rampers yet didn't tell me until after I'd been billed for the 'Silver Bullets'.
There ... now do you feel better? Now we're both acting like immature jerk-offs.
You're a class act, Dippy.
Minh
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
PLease do not pretend that you have not indulged in more than a little name-calling in the past.
And the closest my gal would get to you would be just enough to wipe her shoes off on you.
Then again, you may be into that sort of thing. If so, enjoy.
and... Dippy! Oh ouch! The pain... the humiliation...
That's what grandpa used to call me when he got drunk and mean.
And the closest my gal would get to you would be just enough to wipe her shoes off on you.
Then again, you may be into that sort of thing. If so, enjoy.
and... Dippy! Oh ouch! The pain... the humiliation...
That's what grandpa used to call me when he got drunk and mean.
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Snakum
How's your marmott?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Posts
- 2,090
I don't pretend. I said about a month ago that I now fight fire with fire. No one here has ever heard me start this juvenile name-calling BS. But a few weeks ago I said publicly that when someone else did I will stoop to their level from now on. It is also quite obvious that the Right-wingers and the Christians have historically started the "moron" "idiot" etc. comments, or even worse, comments like the Christian ass-clown who tried to use my father's terminal illness in a discussion about religion. Low class, bro .... low class. Search the posts ... you'll see it. When the lefties are arguing, I've rarely seen them start that crap. I've seen a couple respond in kind, but I've never seen them start it. I've argued with ATL, Typhoon, Jarhead, and others that lean a little bit to the left, but they've never resorted to the old "Loser" "Idiot" etc. BS. They've acted like adults. You didn't, however ... you started name-calling.
So now you know ... when you start the name-calling I reserve the right to disparage your heritage, make lewd comments about your spouse, question your sexuality, and any other lewd, crude, demeaning comment that comes to mind. Then we'll all be on the same sheet of music. We'll both be rude, juvenile ass-monkeys.
Minh
Edit ... 100LL, I think I already said once before that since you'd piled up so many 'Jerk Points' already , that I'd reserved the right to actually START the name-calling where you're concerned.
So now you know ... when you start the name-calling I reserve the right to disparage your heritage, make lewd comments about your spouse, question your sexuality, and any other lewd, crude, demeaning comment that comes to mind. Then we'll all be on the same sheet of music. We'll both be rude, juvenile ass-monkeys.
Minh
Edit ... 100LL, I think I already said once before that since you'd piled up so many 'Jerk Points' already , that I'd reserved the right to actually START the name-calling where you're concerned.
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ATL2CDG
Life's wastebucket
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 243
Point - counterpoint
I came across this blog on one of the other websites that I frequent. While I do not inherenly agree or disagree with the position of the piece, I feel the author made some very good points.
Enjoy!
http://www.donaldsensing.com/2004/07/casing-northwest-327-threat-or-hoax.html
Casing Northwest #327 - threat or hoax?
Now-famous account seems over-detailed; color me skeptical
There is a lot of controversy over whether "Terror in the Skies," by Annie Jacobsen in Women's Wall Street is credible. Annie wrote at engrossing length about Northwest Airlines Flight 327, from Detroit to Los Angeles, on which there were 14 Arab men acting extremely suspiciously - suspiciously enough to alarm the flight crew and cause a swarm of federal officers to charge the aircraft after it gated in LAX.
Michelle Malkin wrote today that she spoke to Dave Adams of the Federal Air Marshals Service (FAMS), who confirmed the main outline of the story - he "was a bit defensive in confirming the story, which seems to lend unsettling credence to Jacobsen's account," says Malkin. (Why would this add credence? I was a spokesman for this federal law-enforcement agency and can understand Dave's "defensiveness" (more likely caution) in speaking with a reporter who seems to have decided in advance that he had something to hide.)
The feds, says Annie, questioned the 14 men at length and finally released them after determining they were clean. They were, reportedly, a musical band hired to play in LA, hence their trip.
So around the internet the story has traveled, resulting in arguments for and against its authenticity. Malkin says the story is true in the main, confirmed by FAMS. But others argue, "Elements of Mrs. Jacobsen's story do not have the ring of truth."
Count me as one of the skeptics.
One of the things I learned in the years I have spent in law enforcement at both the federal and local level is that witnesses of traumatic events relate few details. When people are frightened or otherwise psychologically shocked, their minds don't record movies, but snapshots, and not many of them, either.
Annie's story has a wealth of detail, so much that I find myself disbelieving that she could have been as afraid as she says she was. Since she nowhere indicates that she took contemporaneous notes, I have to conclude her story was written from memory, and written at a minimum many hours after the flight landed.
Look at what Malkin says FAMS confirmed:
... there were 14 Syrians on the flight; they were questioned by the Los Angeles Police Department, FBI, FAM, and so on; they were a musical band.
That's it. This is a far cry from confirming that Annie's story is all its impressive detail is accurate. In fact, it's not even close.
As charitably as I can, let me explain why I think that Annie considerably embellished her story, and not necessarily embellished it deliberately (but might have in some parts; she's a paid writer after all).
One thing professional investigators learn is that almost every witness they interview understands the events concerned through certain, pre-existing templates. One reason different witnesses of the same events give accounts often greatly varying from each other is that their templates are so different. So investigators learn to be suspicious of details, except for the real, main details that are so obvious or important that they break through anyone's template.
Example: a bank robbery gone bad. Witness A says the robber fired his gun several times. "B" says it was nine times. "C" says it was a half-dozen. "D" says the robber had an automatic weapon and sprayed the area. What have they agreed on? Only that the robber fired his gun more than once.
Like most Americans, Annie Jacobsen has a certain template of post-9/11 airline travel that Arab men, especially multiples, are a potential threat aboard an airliner. This is not an unreasonable template, given that it wasn't kilt-wearing Scotsmen who committed 9/11's grim deeds. I have that template, too.
But unconsciously this template affects how she interpreted the events aboard the airliner. She was predisposed to understand the Arab men's actions in threatening ways. She even admits it. Before all the passengers even finished boarding:
As we sat waiting for the plane to finish boarding, we noticed another large group of Middle Eastern men boarding. The first man wore a dark suit and sunglasses. He sat in first class in seat 1A, the seat second-closet to the cockpit door. The other seven men walked into the coach cabin. As "aware" Americans, my husband and I exchanged glances, and then continued to get comfortable. I noticed some of the other passengers paying attention to the situation as well. As boarding continued, we watched as, one by one, most of the Middle Eastern men made eye contact with each other. They continued to look at each other and nod, as if they were all in agreement about something. I could tell that my husband was beginning to feel "anxious."
NB: the plane was still loading passengers, and Annie has already decided that the Arab men are threats. She has already decided they are threats - for what? They made "eye contact" with one another and seemed to agree about something. Might thay have been ensuring they were all together and simply acknowledging that fact?
This is the mighty thin gruel from which Annie constructs a banquet of a near-death experience. Even a McDonald's bag, carried by one of the Arabs, becomes ominous:
But once we were in the air and the seatbelt sign was turned off, the unusual activity began. The man in the yellow T-shirt got out of his seat and went to the lavatory at the front of coach -- taking his full McDonald's bag with him. When he came out of the lavatory he still had the McDonald's bag, but it was now almost empty. He walked down the aisle to the back of the plane, still holding the bag. When he passed two of the men sitting mid-cabin, he gave a thumbs-up sign. When he returned to his seat, he no longer had the McDonald's bag.
Hmm... The bag was full, then it was "almost empty," then it was gone. Sounds like what happens to my McDonalds bag when I finish eating.
Her whole story is rich with such innuendo, after which we learn that nothing happened.
Red State blog says bluntly that Annie's story, "Seems Like a Hoax to Me." They are near-scornfully dismissive of Annie's report of the flight crews' covert alliance with Annie and her husband - which rang very unlikely with me as well - and denounce the whole account as a hoax.
I don't think Annie's article is a hoax. But by no means is it an unbiased, dispassionate, objective account of the flight. Annie was convinced from before takeoff until after landing that her life was in potential peril, and this template filtered every event.
What I am very skeptical of is the wealth of minutiae she reports. Michelle Malkin wrote that OpinionJournal's James Taranto pointed out that the Annie Jacobsen who offers "Creative Writing, Dreamwork, Individual Psychotherapy" lives in Canada, not LA. But I think the account shows some pretty creative recollection, anyway.
So what did happen on Flight 327? Probably nothing more than what Dave Adams of FAMS confirmed explicitly or implicitly to Malkin: there were 14 Arab men traveling with Syrian passports. Their actions did alert the aircrew enough to contact LAX to have federal officers waiting for the plane. The Arabs, a band en route to a gig in LA, were detained, questioned and released.
That's the entire story.
A reasonable question: were the Arabs in fact a band? A commenter on Malkin's site named a real american [sic] wrote (no direct link),
Did you ever stop to think that Detroit, Michigan has one of the largest populations of Arab-Americans in the nation?
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps an Arab family in LA hired the band for a wedding?
I lived in Akron, Ohio and my nice arab employers hired a band from DETROIT to come play at their daughter's wedding, that band had like 10 people in it.
I am absolutely confident that the feds did check their hire out, almost certainly before they released them. And monitored the gig, too.
I won't try to split hairs over how much of Annie's account is embellished, except for the bare details FAMS confirmed, nor how much of it might have been deliberately, not unconsciously, embellished. Nor am I accusing Annie of making a mountain out of a molehill - Arab terrorism against American airlines is a real, persistent threat. But I do think she templated the events enormously, to the point that I am skeptical of most of the other details.
As I finish writing this post, I see a new post by Michelle that I think confirms my template postulate:
Just got off the phone with Annie Jacobsen. ... Recounting the flight, she told me "My legs were like rubber...It was four and a half hours of terror."
So Annie says she was terrorized before the plane even took off.
Michelle also says that the Washington Post "has been sitting on the true story" (well, how much is true, Michelle?) "since last Friday," and that "NBC Nightly News, ABC, and Dateline NBC are now on the story as well." She also says that FAMS has "apparently supplied" (to whom she says not) witness statements and "other corroborations of Jacobsen's account."
Which, if true, really just proves that the feds concluded there was no threat, because files of active investigations are never released.
I remain skeptical for the reasons I explained above, but it is certain that Annie Jacobsen was indeed scared witless by predisposition to be scared, and this fact affected how she understood and reported everything. Lots of embellishments, psychologizing and dramatic reporting here.
I came across this blog on one of the other websites that I frequent. While I do not inherenly agree or disagree with the position of the piece, I feel the author made some very good points.
Enjoy!
http://www.donaldsensing.com/2004/07/casing-northwest-327-threat-or-hoax.html
Casing Northwest #327 - threat or hoax?
Now-famous account seems over-detailed; color me skeptical
There is a lot of controversy over whether "Terror in the Skies," by Annie Jacobsen in Women's Wall Street is credible. Annie wrote at engrossing length about Northwest Airlines Flight 327, from Detroit to Los Angeles, on which there were 14 Arab men acting extremely suspiciously - suspiciously enough to alarm the flight crew and cause a swarm of federal officers to charge the aircraft after it gated in LAX.
Michelle Malkin wrote today that she spoke to Dave Adams of the Federal Air Marshals Service (FAMS), who confirmed the main outline of the story - he "was a bit defensive in confirming the story, which seems to lend unsettling credence to Jacobsen's account," says Malkin. (Why would this add credence? I was a spokesman for this federal law-enforcement agency and can understand Dave's "defensiveness" (more likely caution) in speaking with a reporter who seems to have decided in advance that he had something to hide.)
The feds, says Annie, questioned the 14 men at length and finally released them after determining they were clean. They were, reportedly, a musical band hired to play in LA, hence their trip.
So around the internet the story has traveled, resulting in arguments for and against its authenticity. Malkin says the story is true in the main, confirmed by FAMS. But others argue, "Elements of Mrs. Jacobsen's story do not have the ring of truth."
Count me as one of the skeptics.
One of the things I learned in the years I have spent in law enforcement at both the federal and local level is that witnesses of traumatic events relate few details. When people are frightened or otherwise psychologically shocked, their minds don't record movies, but snapshots, and not many of them, either.
Annie's story has a wealth of detail, so much that I find myself disbelieving that she could have been as afraid as she says she was. Since she nowhere indicates that she took contemporaneous notes, I have to conclude her story was written from memory, and written at a minimum many hours after the flight landed.
Look at what Malkin says FAMS confirmed:
... there were 14 Syrians on the flight; they were questioned by the Los Angeles Police Department, FBI, FAM, and so on; they were a musical band.
That's it. This is a far cry from confirming that Annie's story is all its impressive detail is accurate. In fact, it's not even close.
As charitably as I can, let me explain why I think that Annie considerably embellished her story, and not necessarily embellished it deliberately (but might have in some parts; she's a paid writer after all).
One thing professional investigators learn is that almost every witness they interview understands the events concerned through certain, pre-existing templates. One reason different witnesses of the same events give accounts often greatly varying from each other is that their templates are so different. So investigators learn to be suspicious of details, except for the real, main details that are so obvious or important that they break through anyone's template.
Example: a bank robbery gone bad. Witness A says the robber fired his gun several times. "B" says it was nine times. "C" says it was a half-dozen. "D" says the robber had an automatic weapon and sprayed the area. What have they agreed on? Only that the robber fired his gun more than once.
Like most Americans, Annie Jacobsen has a certain template of post-9/11 airline travel that Arab men, especially multiples, are a potential threat aboard an airliner. This is not an unreasonable template, given that it wasn't kilt-wearing Scotsmen who committed 9/11's grim deeds. I have that template, too.
But unconsciously this template affects how she interpreted the events aboard the airliner. She was predisposed to understand the Arab men's actions in threatening ways. She even admits it. Before all the passengers even finished boarding:
As we sat waiting for the plane to finish boarding, we noticed another large group of Middle Eastern men boarding. The first man wore a dark suit and sunglasses. He sat in first class in seat 1A, the seat second-closet to the cockpit door. The other seven men walked into the coach cabin. As "aware" Americans, my husband and I exchanged glances, and then continued to get comfortable. I noticed some of the other passengers paying attention to the situation as well. As boarding continued, we watched as, one by one, most of the Middle Eastern men made eye contact with each other. They continued to look at each other and nod, as if they were all in agreement about something. I could tell that my husband was beginning to feel "anxious."
NB: the plane was still loading passengers, and Annie has already decided that the Arab men are threats. She has already decided they are threats - for what? They made "eye contact" with one another and seemed to agree about something. Might thay have been ensuring they were all together and simply acknowledging that fact?
This is the mighty thin gruel from which Annie constructs a banquet of a near-death experience. Even a McDonald's bag, carried by one of the Arabs, becomes ominous:
But once we were in the air and the seatbelt sign was turned off, the unusual activity began. The man in the yellow T-shirt got out of his seat and went to the lavatory at the front of coach -- taking his full McDonald's bag with him. When he came out of the lavatory he still had the McDonald's bag, but it was now almost empty. He walked down the aisle to the back of the plane, still holding the bag. When he passed two of the men sitting mid-cabin, he gave a thumbs-up sign. When he returned to his seat, he no longer had the McDonald's bag.
Hmm... The bag was full, then it was "almost empty," then it was gone. Sounds like what happens to my McDonalds bag when I finish eating.
Her whole story is rich with such innuendo, after which we learn that nothing happened.
Red State blog says bluntly that Annie's story, "Seems Like a Hoax to Me." They are near-scornfully dismissive of Annie's report of the flight crews' covert alliance with Annie and her husband - which rang very unlikely with me as well - and denounce the whole account as a hoax.
I don't think Annie's article is a hoax. But by no means is it an unbiased, dispassionate, objective account of the flight. Annie was convinced from before takeoff until after landing that her life was in potential peril, and this template filtered every event.
What I am very skeptical of is the wealth of minutiae she reports. Michelle Malkin wrote that OpinionJournal's James Taranto pointed out that the Annie Jacobsen who offers "Creative Writing, Dreamwork, Individual Psychotherapy" lives in Canada, not LA. But I think the account shows some pretty creative recollection, anyway.
So what did happen on Flight 327? Probably nothing more than what Dave Adams of FAMS confirmed explicitly or implicitly to Malkin: there were 14 Arab men traveling with Syrian passports. Their actions did alert the aircrew enough to contact LAX to have federal officers waiting for the plane. The Arabs, a band en route to a gig in LA, were detained, questioned and released.
That's the entire story.
A reasonable question: were the Arabs in fact a band? A commenter on Malkin's site named a real american [sic] wrote (no direct link),
Did you ever stop to think that Detroit, Michigan has one of the largest populations of Arab-Americans in the nation?
Did you ever stop to think that perhaps an Arab family in LA hired the band for a wedding?
I lived in Akron, Ohio and my nice arab employers hired a band from DETROIT to come play at their daughter's wedding, that band had like 10 people in it.
I am absolutely confident that the feds did check their hire out, almost certainly before they released them. And monitored the gig, too.
I won't try to split hairs over how much of Annie's account is embellished, except for the bare details FAMS confirmed, nor how much of it might have been deliberately, not unconsciously, embellished. Nor am I accusing Annie of making a mountain out of a molehill - Arab terrorism against American airlines is a real, persistent threat. But I do think she templated the events enormously, to the point that I am skeptical of most of the other details.
As I finish writing this post, I see a new post by Michelle that I think confirms my template postulate:
Just got off the phone with Annie Jacobsen. ... Recounting the flight, she told me "My legs were like rubber...It was four and a half hours of terror."
So Annie says she was terrorized before the plane even took off.
Michelle also says that the Washington Post "has been sitting on the true story" (well, how much is true, Michelle?) "since last Friday," and that "NBC Nightly News, ABC, and Dateline NBC are now on the story as well." She also says that FAMS has "apparently supplied" (to whom she says not) witness statements and "other corroborations of Jacobsen's account."
Which, if true, really just proves that the feds concluded there was no threat, because files of active investigations are never released.
I remain skeptical for the reasons I explained above, but it is certain that Annie Jacobsen was indeed scared witless by predisposition to be scared, and this fact affected how she understood and reported everything. Lots of embellishments, psychologizing and dramatic reporting here.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
I personally never cared if the story was true or not.
I simply support let-them-know-where-we-stand screening procedures.
Let them be offended. If they were going to attack us anyway, what's the harm.
Abdullah: "Infidel dogs humiliated me in the TSA line!"
Abdel: "Just for that, we slit extra throats before crashing airplane! Or we use bigger bomb."
If they are sensible, they will understand. And they are free to make me submit to similar searches every time I fly to Syria.
I simply support let-them-know-where-we-stand screening procedures.
Let them be offended. If they were going to attack us anyway, what's the harm.
Abdullah: "Infidel dogs humiliated me in the TSA line!"
Abdel: "Just for that, we slit extra throats before crashing airplane! Or we use bigger bomb."
If they are sensible, they will understand. And they are free to make me submit to similar searches every time I fly to Syria.
Swass
So long, America.....
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2003
- Posts
- 2,015
In Snakum's defense, lot's of people attack out of knee jerk reaction to things being written that don't fall inlline with their political leanings (myself included). I like reading Minh's comments because I crack up at his humor. If you take everything here that seriously then you would be wise to lighten up anyway, that piece of coal up your ass is now a diamond ( I guess you can't bitch about being a broke pilot anymore).johnpeace said:
Snakum
How's your marmott?
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Posts
- 2,090
That's the best advice you'll get all week John.If you take everything here that seriously then you would be wise to lighten up anyway, that piece of coal up your ass is now a diamond ( I guess you can't bitch about being a broke pilot anymore).
If you look up 'Stick-Up-The-Ass' in Webster's Dictionary it's a picture of JohnPiece(OS) going "Huh?". Isn't there a 'My God Can't Kick Your God's Ass' thread somewhere with your name on it? Run along Dippy ... the adults are talking.
Minh
(BTW ... my 'career' has been off the ground since I got out of college, way back when your mother was still making money on her back. I don't fly for a living ... putz.
)
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