Take a vote go or stay!

[F16fixer]

That might have been someone just talking about High altitude endors. I have all the required ratings and endorsements. The plane does go to FL280.

 

[F16fixer]

I understand what your saying, but I'm not getting any younger. I just have to decide if I want to basically take a year off from aviation since I WON'T be logging any time. While if I don't take the job I could be earning time just like everyone else is by flying small singles for another 500-600 hrs and be employable. Does that make any since?

Stay, stay stay, stay.....
I think you are pushing your luck here.
You're flying King Air right seat with 400 hrs.
You have any idea how long it would take you to find something similar?
Try a couple more years and another 1000hrs+.
Even if you can't log it you're flying a 350. DUH...
Change the tune before they ask you to leave.
See it this way; fly a 350 that you cannot log or fly a C150 for another 1000hrs that you can log.
Easy choice to me.

 

[prpjt]

What are your future plans? Do you want to build time to go to a regional?

If ultimately you just want the hours quickly, fly slow planes. Instruct. Enjoy the year and look for an airline seat when you get the time.

If you want to stay on the corporate side of things, take the job and start looking for something better while you are employed.

Is the current pilot getting a single pilot type? If not, you'd log legal SIC time in the 350. The reason I ask, is that they were going to send you to school. Not bashing, but this sounds like a pretty cheap operation. There would be no monetary benefit to them sending you to sim training. There would be no insurance break if they flew it single pilot some and crew sometimes. As far as insurance, it's one or the other.

If the insurance company is mandating 2 pilots, be careful. Most policies state that for the 2 crew rate, the SIC must have had approved school within the past 12 months. If you accept the gig, try to get rid of the 'you pay for the day pilot' clause. There are not many guys that have been to 350 school in the last year that would be willing to work for less than $450 a day.

As far as the value of logging time, that's a tough one that only you can answer. I can only speak for myself, but here are my thoughts on time. We operate King Airs.

Say 2 applicants come in. #1 is a flight instructor with 1100 hours. #2 is an instructor with 600 hours in his/her logbook. #2 also presents 500 hours worth of aircraft flight logs, with their name as SIC, and a couple of Flight Safety recurrent certificates. In my mind, #2 is the stronger applicant for any job that requires 2 pilots and sim training. Notwithstanding what the FAA or the airlines think, I'd view #2 as an 1100 hour pilot with some experience, and someone who has been in a structured training environment.

Before people that know me start sending resumes, we can't hire low time guys.

Good luck. I do think the pay for your replacement garbage would be a deal killer.

 

[TurboS7]

The King Air 350 is certified under Part 25.

 

[Traveller Pilot]

The job sounds like your average low budget turboprop right up to the sick day policy...then you lose me...how can they just pick any off the street replacement and expect you to pay, and on the other hand expect you to br typed....why do you need a type rating to fly right seat in that aircraft??? The salary alone seems reasonable, but the sick leave, and vacation are something that need to be looked at for sure....go to a regional, eat the initial pay cut, but look at yourself 5 years down the road...

 

[pilatus96]

You could be a flight attendant and make the same pay. Might as well, more chicks.

Seriously, who goes from being a pilot to a FA? I hope you're joking.

 

[Kingairrick]

Are the regionals hiring 500 hour pilots? My god, I'm glad I don't fly on those things.

 

[F16fixer]

Guys I don't think the regionals will be hiring me anytime soon, so don't worry!

Thanks everyone for all your help and I thought I would let you know that I put in my 2 weeks today. Landed a flight instructor job this morning. Time to get into teaching 100%. I think it was the best choice I could have made. My ultimate goal is the airlines and I wouldn't feel comfortable walking in with 500 hrs of sole-manipulator time. The guy I fly with needs 350 time for insurance, so it would be illegal anyway! That just came out in a discussion yesterday.

Take care everyone and I think we can close this subject up.

Until my next dilema,

Luke

 

[A Squared]

The King Air 350 is certified under Part 25.

Actually, it is certificated under Part 23 and SFAR 41C

There's a quick fix to the whole high alt endorsement deal, your b200 never goes above FL250, right?

Ummmm, no, it doesn't matter how high you go, if the airplane's max operating altitude is more than 25,000 you need the endorsemsnt to act as PIC.

You don't need the endorsement to log PIC as sole manipulator though.

 

[Thurman Merman]

my original point, thanks.

 

[prpjt]

Actually, it is certificated under Part 23 and SFAR 41C

Just to play symmantics with this, The above statement is only partially correct.

The King Air 350 was certificated under Part 23 Commuter Catagory. SFAR 41C had a 10 year sunset clause and expired in '91, after which the official certification became Commuter Catagory.

This is the reason the 300 ended production that year, because it was a SFAR41 C aircraft. For them to keep producing it, they would have to recertify under Commuter Catagory, since Part 23 SFAR41C no longer existed.

I know, just trivia.

 

[sky37d]

I'm confused. 200's are single pilot, <12,500 pounds, but 350's are 15,000. i thought that anything over 12.5 required 2 pilots.

 

[A Squared]

I'm confused. 200's are single pilot, <12,500 pounds, but 350's are 15,000. i thought that anything over 12.5 required 2 pilots.

No, if it's over 12,500 lb, it requires a type rating but not necessarily a second pilot.

just off the top of my head, The beech 1900, the metro and hte beech 350 are all over 12,500 and are commonly flown single pilot.

 

[JimNtexas]

I guess I should clarify that the reason I was thinking of sticking around was so I could learn more. I'm not sure if there is a big difference in the 350 vs the 200 skills wise. Then I could put something on the resume that showed that I had 200 hrs of unlogged 350 time or some thing like that. Just an idea.

My answer is based on two assumptions:

1) You can afford to quit, you don't have a family that will starve or die if you are unemployed for a while.

2) The new airplane requires a type, and therefore you will not be able to log "sole manipulator" time.

Low pay, they fine you for being sick, no vacation, and to top it all they want you to fly for them in a situation in which you are legally only a passenger???????????????

I'm sorry, but wouldn't it be better to flight instruct in a clapped out C-150?? With a fat student with bad BO, in August, in Alabama?

It sure seems to me that if you not logging hours, you are not moving forward in your profession at all. You could earn $24K with benefits stocking the shelves at Walmart. They'd even give days off and a vacation.

You are proposing to spend months or years earning "experience" that is at the very best a tie breaker over someone with the same numbers of loggable hours as you'll have the day that 350 shows up. If you have 400 hours logged experience and 400 hours as a right seat passenger, then you are a 400 hour pilot, period.

In the nicest, most repectful way possible you should graciously decline their generous offer and find a gig instructing or towing banners, or some other pilot position.

 

[labbats]

Don't ever threaten to leave a job unless you are actually willing to walk out. You sound like you're on the fence. Make up your mind, then tell them. Not vice versa.

 

[sky37d]

Just remember the old saying, a bird in the hand is no good without a bush.
Or something like that.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

As Shamrock said, unless you have a type for the 200, that is unloggable time. You need to be appropriately rated for the aircraft to log PIC. That means a type rating. Based on the logic you seem to be using, there is no reason you couldn't log "sole manipulator" time in the 350. See what I'm getting at? If no type, no PIC in either the 200 or 250. 61.51 should cover it.

Mr. I.

There is no type needed for a civilian King Air 200. They cannot be operated above 12500#. There is a King Air 200 type available to Army pilots that fly a
C-12 (military King Air) because the Army got approval to raise the max weight on some of the planes to 14500#. That type rating is basically useless though cause you do not need a type rating in the military for any plane. And there are no civilian 200's that are allowed to use the higher weight.

As far as SIC's being required. The King Air 200 is single pilot, PERIOD (for part 91 ops) Only one pilot should be logging time. You can log all the time you are the pilot flying as PIC in this plane as long as you have a multiengine land rating. If you are in the King Air 350 the PIC MUST have a type rating for this airplane. You CANNOT log PIC under any circumstances unless YOU have a type rating for THIS airplane. You could log SIC IF the PIC has a limitation on his pilot certificate stating "second in command required" and you are properly qualified per 61.55 Again this is for PART 91 OPS.
Insurance companies have NO authority as far as what can be put in logbooks. The FAA doesn't give a hoot if your insurance requires 5 pilots on board to be covered in your King Air 200, only the pilot flying is logging any legal time.

 

[Thurman Merman]

Log the SIC in the King Air. If you are actually performing more functions than a radio monkey and you are operating in a crew enviroment then you are obviously learning from it. Technically The King Air does not require an SIC and insurance req have no bearing on it. After a few months of SIC and Right seat PIC I was moved over to the left seat along with going to FSI. When I interviewed with an airline I was asked about my king air time and how it was logged. I explained it as above but in more detail. I did have a tally of my total time w/ and w/o the SIC in there as a reference. When at FSI we flew as a crew, some limited training was done single pilot since we could fly to and from maint single pilot as per insurance stipulations. They were satisfied with the answer and pleased during training because my CRM was well above the curve and obvious I had oiperated in a crew enviroment. The biggest thing is don't be deceptive. Explain how and why you logged this time and how it has benefitted you. Just my .01 cents. Again I'm not saying SIC in a King Air is wrong or right, but being there is making you a more experienced pilot and you should at least express this on your resume logged or not.

 

[JimNtexas]

Log the SIC in the King Air....

It's your logbook and you are certainly entitled to log anything you like. If you interview for a flying job, the company conducting the interview is entitled to place whatever value they choose on it. As one with a lot of time as a navigator in 2 seat jets, I'm all in favor of that. If there is an operator out there that will count this kind of time toward their hiring mins, please tell me who they are. Maybe I could get hired based on my nav time.

But if you are logging "sole manipulator" time as an untyped "SIC" in an airplane that requires a type rating then this time should not be counted toward the requirements for any FAA certificate or currency. Not for the ATP ticket, not for Part 135 mins, not for instrument or landing currency. To do otherwise is to invite a carpet dance in front of the FSDO if they ever have a reason to look at your logbook.

If the pilot in command of the King Air is an instructor, perhaps the time would count as dual instruction if he or she was willing to sign the "SIC"'s logbook. I'm not sure about that.

 

[Yellow Snow]

As Shamrock said, unless you have a type for the 200, that is unloggable time. You need to be appropriately rated for the aircraft to log PIC. That means a type rating. Based on the logic you seem to be using, there is no reason you couldn't log "sole manipulator" time in the 350. See what I'm getting at? If no type, no PIC in either the 200 or 250. 61.51 should cover it.

Mr. I.

There is no type rating required for the 200 as it is under the 12,500 weight limit. The 350 needs type because of weight. As long as you have CMEL you can log all time in 200 as sole manipulator as PIC nothing dicey about it as long as you are apropriately rated.