Take a vote go or stay!

[JimNtexas]

There is no type rating required for the 200 as it is under the 12,500 weight limit. The 350 needs type because of weight. As long as you have CMEL you can log all time in 200 as sole manipulator as PIC nothing dicey about it as long as you are apropriately rated.

That's true, but the subject of this thread is an sic who's company is trading the 200 for a 350, which may require a type (I'll leave that to the King Air pilots to thrash out, I have no idea myself). They don't want to type the SIC, but want him to continue acting as copilot.

If in fact his company buys a single pilot airplane that requires a type rating, and he flies in the right seat as SIC but does not have a type, then I don't think the FAA would count this time for currency or certification purposes.

 

[A Squared]

It's your logbook and you are certainly entitled to log anything you like.

No, this is not true. If you put it in your logbook, it must be time which you aere legally entitled to log, otherwise it is falsification. It does not matter if you do not use it to qualify for an ATP, 135 minimums, never put it on a 8710. If you put it in your logbook, and it's not legal, it's falsification. this has been upheld in more than one NTSB appeal.

here's one: http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4260.PDF

The respondents claimed that false entries were ok because they didn't use them to meet currency or certificate requirements.

Quote:
In essence, the respondents are contending that it is permissible for an airman to knowingly fabricate a logbook entry as long as the entry is not one that he is using at that time to obtain a higher rating or to stay current. We disagree, and have said as much before. See Administrator v. Turner, NTSB Order No. EA-3748 at 3, n.5 (1992) (The regulation prohibiting logbook falsifications applies to entries "that are or may be 'used' to show compliance with 'any requirement for the issuance, or exercise of the privileges, [of] any certificate or rating,' not just ... those entries that are needed to demonstrate compliance"). Administrator v. Cassis, 4 NTSB 555, 557 (1982), aff'd, 737 F.2d 545 (6th Cir. 1984).8

 

[kingaira90]

350

Doesn't the 350 REQUIRE 2 crew? If so it is a no brainer, you can log the right seat time without worry. I realize some companys fly the 1900 and Metroliner single pilot but that is for freight not passengers, and they got a waiver to do it (ie ameriflight). All you need is a company checkride. I fully understand if you want another/better job, but I don't think that should be the reason for quitting.-kingaira90

 

[JimNtexas]

No, this is not true. If you put it in your logbook, it must be time which you aere legally entitled to log, otherwise it is falsification. It does not matter if you do not use it to qualify for an ATP, 135 minimums, never put it on a 8710. If you put it in your logbook, and it's not legal, it's falsification. this has been upheld in more than one NTSB appeal.

Those guys were logging stuff that never happened, and claiming that things that did happen didn't really happen for the purpose of concealing FAR violations.

That's not what we are talking about here. It's not "false" to log something that you really did, even if the thing you did doesn't count for squat.

Now anytime you log anything you may run into a logbook nazi somewhere along the line, but the cited case is orthogonal to this discussion.

 

[A Squared]

Those guys were logging stuff that never happened, and claiming that things that did happen didn't really happen for the purpose of concealing FAR violations.

That's not what we are talking about here. It's not "false" to log something that you really did, even if the thing you did doesn't count for squat.

Now anytime you log anything you may run into a logbook nazi somewhere along the line, but the cited case is orthogonal to this discussion.

It *is* false to credit yourself for experience which you are not legally entitled to take credit for.

In the NTSB case it is falsification because the pilot is logging a flight he was not actually on.

In the issue at hand it is (or would be) falsification becase the pilot would be logging SIC time which he is not legally entitled to log as SIC (as per 61.51 (f))

Either way it is falsification, that is not in question. what *is* in question is whether falsification is OK if you don't use it for currency or qualification. the answer is no. here's a case where somone logged PIC time which she wasn't legally entitled to log. THe fact that she was actuually present on the flights in question was irrelevant, it was still held to be falsification
http://www.ntsb.gov/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/3629.PDF.

 

[sky37d]

No, if it's over 12,500 lb, it requires a type rating but not necessarily a second pilot.

just off the top of my head, The beech 1900, the metro and hte beech 350 are all over 12,500 and are commonly flown single pilot.

Okay, now i'm really confused.
How do you know if the airplane requires a second pilot?
Under the scenario, type rating, could you assume that if you got a type rating in a Lockheed Jetstar, you could put a non pilot in the front right seat, and it would be legal?? If so, I have an idea who that would be, but I'm holding off on ACTUALLY purchasing the Jetstar

 

[Bill Mostellar]

What is your opinion on this situation?

I added a poll to his post, take a minute and vote.

 

[mwaugh]

What are going to do instead?

If the answer is "be unemployed" then I'd say the decision is easy.

I may be all crazy here, but you leave one job when you find a better job. It's easier to find a better job if you're looking for one, but you should always be looking for a better job - who wouldn't be?

 

[A Squared]

Okay, now i'm really confused.
How do you know if the airplane requires a second pilot?
Under the scenario, type rating, could you assume that if you got a type rating in a Lockheed Jetstar, you could put a non pilot in the front right seat, and it would be legal?? If so, I have an idea who that would be, but I'm holding off on ACTUALLY purchasing the Jetstar

THe surest way to know is to check the Type Certificate Data Sheet. It will list the minimum crew. THe beech twins we have been discussing all list a minimum crew of 1 pilot. The jetstar requires a minimum crew of 2 pilots.

I suspect that this information would also be found in the aircraft's operating manual.

 

[F16fixer]

Thanks for doing that! I never knew that feature existed on the site

Luke

I added a poll to his post, take a minute and vote.

 

[F16fixer]

I have learned that if a 350 has more than 9 seats, it requires two crew. If the PIC has a stipulation on his/her type that says SIC req'd that would be another example.
For everyone who hasn't read page four or somewhere in there, I quit! My last day is June 1st. I found a CFI job just at the right time. I picked up 6 primary students just like that. So yes, I do have another job. I feel that the right seat of a king air is a 6 month, 100hr job and then you move on. I was never on the insurance. I was never in a position to take over. I never sat left seat. I never even started the plane. If I was given more of a chance to fly the plane I probably would have stayed for another year. So for everyone out there that gets a chance to fly right "sit" seat in a king air, you will learn that is gets very boring after you figure out the ropes. I was a glorified radio monkey. They dangled a carrot in front of me every now and then by letting me land a dead head leg, but it wasn't doing it for me. At 400 hrs I need to be teaching and working on being a better CFI. My instrument skills have gone way down by letting an auto pilot fly every app. that we do. I don't consider my self a pro, and I think it will really help to teach on a daily basis. After having experienced it first hand, I would not put much weight on someones log book if they had 400 hrs of right seat time. I know that this can differ from CP to CP and it makes a world of difference if they put pressure on you to get them from point A to point B, but this was never the case with me. It was a stress free job. You know that pressure feeling that I'm talking about? I think when you have that feeling during a flight, it's called LEARNING or EXPERIENCE.
Take care everyone and thanks for all your comments,
fixer

QUOTE=sky37d]Okay, now i'm really confused.
How do you know if the airplane requires a second pilot?
Under the scenario, type rating, could you assume that if you got a type rating in a Lockheed Jetstar, you could put a non pilot in the front right seat, and it would be legal?? If so, I have an idea who that would be, but I'm holding off on ACTUALLY purchasing the Jetstar[/QUOTE]

 

[flyforfood77777]

How about logging be-20 time for a 135/91k fractional operator where the op. specs. always require two pilots and the SIC gets to fly empty legs, has a high alt. endorse., and has completed a 135.293/299 checkride. Can all of the time be legitimately logged as SIC as you are a required crewmember at all times?

 

[350DRIVER]

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[350DRIVER]

How about logging be-20 time for a 135/91k fractional operator where the op. specs. always require two pilots and the SIC gets to fly empty legs, has a high alt. endorse., and has completed a 135.293/299 checkride. Can all of the time be legitimately logged as SIC as you are a required crewmember at all times?

YES.
If the Ops Specs requires a SIC to be onboard (specifically stated in it), you are checked out and qualified as a SIC then you may log this as SIC time. I would log the 91 legs as PIC if you are the sole manipulator of the controls since you are appropriately rated since the equipment does not require a type. Just remember, insurance reqt's cannot over-ride the ops specs or applicable FAR's.

 

[futurama08]

If you get sick you have to pay for a replacement out of your salary and there is no vacation days or sick days.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:nuts: wait i need to breathe :nuts:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

YOU ACTUALLY KEPT LISTENING AFTER THIS? Sweatshop workers in Indonesia have a better deal than this :smash:

 

[pilotmiketx]

I'd take a dump on the floor and hide it under the captain's seat, then quit.

 

[Say Again Over]

My 2 cents

Why in the world would anyone leave a BE350 job to teach primary students??? I can't understand this at all, there is no learning taking place for you when you are sitting in the right seat of a C-172, I operated a Part 91 BE-200 and asked FSI in HOU if someone could monitor the class, no problem was the answer and my friend / CFI got to go through the complete ground school (recurrent) for free. My strategy would be to make yourself so valuable to the CP that he will do whatever to keep you, at least find a better position before leaving. Good luck!

 

[Eagle-ista]

Don't quit to flight instruct, but you should quit.

You are being taken advantage of, just so you can get that all important turbine PIC time. They know you want it, and that's obvious by your compensation. There are operators that fly Caravans and King Air 90s, 100s, and 200s all over the country and I bet 75% would offer a better salary, plus not make you pay for your replacement if you took a sick day. Since you have some BE-200 time, take it and run.

 

[Cardinal]

Well, since somebody decided to vote on this poll and resurrect it from more than a year ago.......What'ya do f16fixer?

 

[pilotyip]

Move on

You show 1200 hrs TT, that puts you in the 135 IFR PIC. Start looking for your next job, weight your options and move when you find something better. You are not building your resume in your present position, and it does not sound like a career position. You need MEL IFR PIC to make the move into the better jobs. I would even consider a tour at a regional to build time, even a T-Prop regional would get you PIC time fairly quickly.