Tail draggin' ain't easy!

[agpilot77]

You just can't stop flyin' and start drivin' once the wheels are on the ground.

Well said, like my Dad told me, "you got to fly it till it stops". And just when you get a little complacent, it will take off towards the ditch (ahh, the good ol spring steel gear)

 

[MauleSkinner]

How about on take off. Dancing on the pedals is a little exagerated but there was definitely needed rudder action. In perfect conditions with steady wind I could see that being much easier to land and not need much rudder action as long as your straight. How can you say that in swirling winds while landing on a runway where you have to practically dodge tree limbs coming over the fence should not need much rudder. If the x winds are intermittent and your having a lot of shear like we do with all our overgrown trees around the runway you have to flutter the rudder a good bit and it's hard. There seems to be huge latency in the response. Say a sudden cross wind gust hits right after touchdown. If it swings that tail out your done unless you can anticipate the slightest beginning motion and act quickly with the right amount of rudder which is extremely sluggish on roll out.

You just about hit the nail on the head with this...what you're largely training yourself to do is see smaller deviations from your desired path. The smaller the yaw angle you can distinguish, the smaller the correction needs to be.

If you don't recognize it until the airplane has turned 3 or 4 degrees, the airplane has already started to build some momentum towards a ground loop. The correction required is going to be larger, and the delay in response is going to be longer.

The same thing goes when the airplane is corrected back to its straight path. If you're correcting back from a 3 or 4 degree swing, you're building momentum, and the airplane is going to want to keep going through center to the other side. THIS is where the need comes in to "anticipate".

If you can observe and make correction for a 1-degree deviation, the required response is very small, the delay is negligible, and the need to anticipate "countering the counter" doesn't really exist. You just return the rudder to the point where you should have stable rollout.

Have fun!

David

 

[Lead Sled]

Back in a previous life, in another galaxy far far away, I flew for one of the majors. The chief pilot told me that he could always tell guys with taildragger experience by the way they flew the 727 - they knew what their feet were for.

'Sled

 

[aucfi]

I gave my friend his tailwheel endorsement while he was training for his CFI. He and his instructor said after having the TW training and experience he flew much better than he had ever before.

That being said, I got my license in a 172, but learned how to land properly in a Cub.

Have fun with it & keep dragging that tail.

 

[Cat Driver]

Quote:

" Well, it's a lot easier if you don't know any better "

When I learned to fly the only training airplanes we had to learn on were tail wheel airplanes.

I remember seeing the first nose wheel trainer a Piper Tri Pacer and we just couldn't figure out why anyone would do that to an airplane.

Now over fifty years later I understand why, it was to make it so easy to control during take off and landing that there was nothing really to learn, just jump in the thing and drive it.

I will grant that some tail wheel airplanes do require a lot of attention as to how you handle them such as a Pitts Special or a Grumman Turbo Goose, however even these airplanes only require some training on type.

So the bottom line is all pilots should get some tail wheel time if for no other reason than to learn to fly a conventional airplane.

Cat Driver

 

[LJDRVR]

Good advice by all. I got my Private in a Cessna 172, but I really learned to fly and navigate in a 1946 Aeronca Champ I flew to build XC hours for my instrument rating. It's only through dumb luck and her forgiving nature that she survived my ham-fisted attempts to destroy her.

The 170 is a great airplane. Like it's 120/140 brethren, that Whitman spring gear will make wheel landings a real challenge, you have to zero out your descent rate or you'll bounce.

Don't get suckered into any neophyte "which is better, wheel landings or three-point?" argument.

 

[Wang Chung]

Don't get suckered into any neophyte "which is better, wheel landings or three-point?" argument.

Amen to that. The search feature will turn up plenty of "discussion" on this topic. :nuts:

 

[brett]

I used to have a Champ I gave instruction in. Instructing tailwheel transition students can definitely be a very intense experience. One thing that helps alot with keeping the plane tracking straight is remembering to look well down the runway. Looking too close will really screw you up and have you over-correcting and fighting against yourself.

- Brett

 

[FlyingSkip]

I'm sure a lot of the previous posts were submitted by guys that have more TW than I do, but I feel like I need to contribute my 2 cents. The biggest things I run into when transitioning guys from tricycle to taildraggers is the tendency to fly with "dead feet"---Avbug said that you shouldn't HAVE to have dancing feet, but the problem I see is that guys don't have any feel for rudder control when we start. They're so used to taking off/landing using a little aileron control for a xwind situation and then only using their pedals for taxiing or to center the ball halfway thru a 360. So, I typically tell students to prepare to have dancing feet, knowing that they CAN and WILL overcompensate at first but that as they feel how much control they need and how much effect their inputs have they will develop a feel for it. It doesn't take very long, and from my first flight I KNOW for a fact that I was helped by my helo experience of always gauging how much rudder I needed for tailrotor control. Most guys that have only flown 172s or other VERY forgiving aircraft don't realize that yaw control in other aircraft is important at all times, and tail draggers very quickly will bring that point home! Keep with it, buddy! I second the opinions that say that the experience will not only make you a competent TW pilot, but will make you a better pilot period. After a couple months dragging rags and doing this stuff every day it'll be like breathing---something you do without conscious thought. Skills that are THAT intrinsic will stay with you in every aspect of your flight experience and help you to be a true professional.

BTW, every banner tow operation that I know of flies either Super Cubs, Citabrias or Pawnees---all of which will put you on the aircraft's centerline rather than right/left. That fact in itself will help you to pick up the clues as to deviations and corrections that were discussed here earlier. It only gets easier, dude!

 

[Cat Driver]

And remember to learn to be competent doing wheel landings for other reasons besides x/winds...you will need to know how to wheel land when you get in the DC3.

 

[Wang Chung]

you will need to know how to wheel land when you get in the DC3.

Sure, but I hear the DC3s are being replaced by those new-fangled Convairs, and eventually you might work your way into the DC-6. BUT the real excitement is the dawn of the Jet Age. Imagine yourself flying the Boeing 707 someday!

 

[Cat Driver]

" Sure, but I hear the DC3s are being replaced by those new-fangled Convairs, and eventually you might work your way into the DC-6. BUT the real excitement is the dawn of the Jet Age. Imagine yourself flying the Boeing 707 someday! "

Good one, I missed the 707 but did get to experience some of the later jet things.

I always get a kick out of these tail wheel discussions.

Cat D.

 

[mcjohn]

I didn't get the endorsement. The instructor had to leave today to go spray bugs in Mississippi and won't be back for a month. He said one more lesson and I'd probably have it. I flew the 170 for 5.5 hours on 0A7's strip for 2 days while experiencing gusty X winds (100% perpendicular) on both days. I could takeoff and touchdown O.K. but when the plane slowed down during landing rollout I'd often have full left rudder in to fight the X wind from the right but the slower we got the tail just kept swinging out in the direction of the wind and coming close to ground looping causing us to throw in throttle to recover. And then the day was over when the throttle friction lock accidently became full locked and we couldn't throw in the throttle and slid off the runway to the right where all that grass saved us. We were landing runway 15 away from where the hangers are (www.hendersonvilleairport.com)
We bent the throttle while trying to push it as hard as we could trying to recover and spent the next 3 hours dismantling and fixing. It kind of hurt my confidence and I can't quit thinking about it.
All I can say is that was real flying and I'm unhappy all my hours are tricycle gear. Learning to fly unconventional gear does not teach people to really fly.
It's like training wheels on kids bike or something.

 

[avbug]

If you're going off the runway, brakes are always an option. Not all airplanes have steerable tailwheels...in some cases, without brakes, you have no ground steering.

Dragging a brake slightly on one side is also an option. If you're slow and throw in a lot of power, it may hurt you a lot more than help you.

Generally brakes are best avoided as a principle of airmanship...but in some cases, they're necessary, and in all cases, they're nothing more than a tool for your use in operating the aircraft, to be used as required.

Bent the throttle? Are you sure your instructor was leaving due to work?

 

[Wang Chung]

I always get a kick out of these tail wheel discussions.

Cat D.

I agree, the tailwheel and round-engine discussions are some of the best here. They don't turn really nasty as often as some of the other threads.

When I get the money someday, I'd love to find a Super Cub or something similar and get back into tailwheel flying for fun. The jet job pays the bills (mostly) but a taildragger and a grass strip are what I really love about aviation, and I've been missing that lately.