Tail draggin' ain't easy!

[LJDRVR]

Good advice by all. I got my Private in a Cessna 172, but I really learned to fly and navigate in a 1946 Aeronca Champ I flew to build XC hours for my instrument rating. It's only through dumb luck and her forgiving nature that she survived my ham-fisted attempts to destroy her.

The 170 is a great airplane. Like it's 120/140 brethren, that Whitman spring gear will make wheel landings a real challenge, you have to zero out your descent rate or you'll bounce.

Don't get suckered into any neophyte "which is better, wheel landings or three-point?" argument.

 

[Wang Chung]

Don't get suckered into any neophyte "which is better, wheel landings or three-point?" argument.

Amen to that. The search feature will turn up plenty of "discussion" on this topic. :nuts:

 

[brett]

I used to have a Champ I gave instruction in. Instructing tailwheel transition students can definitely be a very intense experience. One thing that helps alot with keeping the plane tracking straight is remembering to look well down the runway. Looking too close will really screw you up and have you over-correcting and fighting against yourself.

- Brett

 

[FlyingSkip]

I'm sure a lot of the previous posts were submitted by guys that have more TW than I do, but I feel like I need to contribute my 2 cents. The biggest things I run into when transitioning guys from tricycle to taildraggers is the tendency to fly with "dead feet"---Avbug said that you shouldn't HAVE to have dancing feet, but the problem I see is that guys don't have any feel for rudder control when we start. They're so used to taking off/landing using a little aileron control for a xwind situation and then only using their pedals for taxiing or to center the ball halfway thru a 360. So, I typically tell students to prepare to have dancing feet, knowing that they CAN and WILL overcompensate at first but that as they feel how much control they need and how much effect their inputs have they will develop a feel for it. It doesn't take very long, and from my first flight I KNOW for a fact that I was helped by my helo experience of always gauging how much rudder I needed for tailrotor control. Most guys that have only flown 172s or other VERY forgiving aircraft don't realize that yaw control in other aircraft is important at all times, and tail draggers very quickly will bring that point home! Keep with it, buddy! I second the opinions that say that the experience will not only make you a competent TW pilot, but will make you a better pilot period. After a couple months dragging rags and doing this stuff every day it'll be like breathing---something you do without conscious thought. Skills that are THAT intrinsic will stay with you in every aspect of your flight experience and help you to be a true professional.

BTW, every banner tow operation that I know of flies either Super Cubs, Citabrias or Pawnees---all of which will put you on the aircraft's centerline rather than right/left. That fact in itself will help you to pick up the clues as to deviations and corrections that were discussed here earlier. It only gets easier, dude!

 

[Cat Driver]

And remember to learn to be competent doing wheel landings for other reasons besides x/winds...you will need to know how to wheel land when you get in the DC3.

 

[Wang Chung]

you will need to know how to wheel land when you get in the DC3.

Sure, but I hear the DC3s are being replaced by those new-fangled Convairs, and eventually you might work your way into the DC-6. BUT the real excitement is the dawn of the Jet Age. Imagine yourself flying the Boeing 707 someday!

 

[Cat Driver]

" Sure, but I hear the DC3s are being replaced by those new-fangled Convairs, and eventually you might work your way into the DC-6. BUT the real excitement is the dawn of the Jet Age. Imagine yourself flying the Boeing 707 someday! "

Good one, I missed the 707 but did get to experience some of the later jet things.

I always get a kick out of these tail wheel discussions.

Cat D.

 

[mcjohn]

I didn't get the endorsement. The instructor had to leave today to go spray bugs in Mississippi and won't be back for a month. He said one more lesson and I'd probably have it. I flew the 170 for 5.5 hours on 0A7's strip for 2 days while experiencing gusty X winds (100% perpendicular) on both days. I could takeoff and touchdown O.K. but when the plane slowed down during landing rollout I'd often have full left rudder in to fight the X wind from the right but the slower we got the tail just kept swinging out in the direction of the wind and coming close to ground looping causing us to throw in throttle to recover. And then the day was over when the throttle friction lock accidently became full locked and we couldn't throw in the throttle and slid off the runway to the right where all that grass saved us. We were landing runway 15 away from where the hangers are (www.hendersonvilleairport.com)
We bent the throttle while trying to push it as hard as we could trying to recover and spent the next 3 hours dismantling and fixing. It kind of hurt my confidence and I can't quit thinking about it.
All I can say is that was real flying and I'm unhappy all my hours are tricycle gear. Learning to fly unconventional gear does not teach people to really fly.
It's like training wheels on kids bike or something.

 

[avbug]

If you're going off the runway, brakes are always an option. Not all airplanes have steerable tailwheels...in some cases, without brakes, you have no ground steering.

Dragging a brake slightly on one side is also an option. If you're slow and throw in a lot of power, it may hurt you a lot more than help you.

Generally brakes are best avoided as a principle of airmanship...but in some cases, they're necessary, and in all cases, they're nothing more than a tool for your use in operating the aircraft, to be used as required.

Bent the throttle? Are you sure your instructor was leaving due to work?

 

[Wang Chung]

I always get a kick out of these tail wheel discussions.

Cat D.

I agree, the tailwheel and round-engine discussions are some of the best here. They don't turn really nasty as often as some of the other threads.

When I get the money someday, I'd love to find a Super Cub or something similar and get back into tailwheel flying for fun. The jet job pays the bills (mostly) but a taildragger and a grass strip are what I really love about aviation, and I've been missing that lately.

 

[mcjohn]

If you're going off the runway, brakes are always an option. Not all airplanes have steerable tailwheels...in some cases, without brakes, you have no ground steering.

Dragging a brake slightly on one side is also an option. If you're slow and throw in a lot of power, it may hurt you a lot more than help you.

Generally brakes are best avoided as a principle of airmanship...but in some cases, they're necessary, and in all cases, they're nothing more than a tool for your use in operating the aircraft, to be used as required.

Bent the throttle? Are you sure your instructor was leaving due to work?

Oh yeah, we definitely had left break after it swung a few degrees. And yes he is leaving for work (not making me feel any better are you!) I knew that before we even started. We knew we only had 2 days to knock it out. That's why we were flying in the bad x winds and not taking our time. The friction lock was so touchy on the throttle. You turn/bump it a millimeter or two and it would lock tight. I always like to have my palm around the knob of the throttle and my finger tips come in contact with the lock. I take responsibility for locking it and not realizing it. Instructor knocked my hand away and bent throttle himself. We were really close to ground looping so instructor was being thrown to the left out of his seat with his hand on it and I think that bent it it. However, it's still my fault.

 

[avbug]

Fault is a blame game they play in the People's Republik of Kalifornia. It's a stupid game.

Trying to guess at who might be at fault is childish and wasteful; more important is what is learned.

A lesson here might be earlier application of control input, but more importantly, never rely on your engine in flight or on the ground. Always plan accordingly, especially in this kind of flying. You're probably accustomed to being told to plan for an engine failure in flight (never a matter of if, but when)...but plan for it in every phase of your aircraft operation. On takeoff, on the ground, on landing, on rollout, and during a go-around or missed approach. It may happen because the engine fails, or for another reason (as you've discovered).

If the wind is strong enough, especially when doing primary training for that conventional gear signoff, do your takeoffs and landings into the wind. Get the basic feel for the aircraft first, and then move on to crosswinds. Otherwise you'll be like the cows in Wyoming when the wind quits; they all fall over. Too used to the breeze.

 

[mcjohn]

Very much agreed. Don't want to fault anyone. Doesn't matter. Just trying to be humble. And yes we talked about how we were skipping the building block principle and we both came to regret it.

 

[Cat Driver]

yeh Wang Chung, I'm trying to sell a few toys that I have had for some years and I am about half finished with building a Cub Clone that I am putting on amphib floats.

My first job in aviation was crop dusting with a J3 Cub, so it seems fitting I end my career with a Cub.

Cat D.

 

[Propnose]

I flew a C-170 today working on my tailwheel endorsement. I knew they were touchy but I had no idea it would be so freakin' squirrly! I flew for 3.5 hours and just started getting the hang of x-wind (real x wind today) wheel landings on a 40' wide strip. That stuffs dangerous!!! It's the 1st time I've sat in the left seat in almost a year and really the first flying I've done in months (other than sitting in the right seat with folded arms CFIing) The instructor said I did well and that I may be able to get signed off tommorow.
GO ME!!
If any of you folks have the opportunity to try tail wheel flying - Take it. I'd say it was the most humbleing experience I've had so far in aviation. I can't believe it was so common back in the old days.
I'm going to bed early tonight. I flew for 3.5 hours in that mess on 4 hours of sleep!

"There is no such thing as a squirrly airplane - only squirrly pilots" --Curtis Pitts

 

[mcjohn]

"There is no such thing as a squirrly airplane - only squirrly pilots" --Curtis Pitts

Fine then. Squirrly winds, taking a squirrly pilot, and making an airplane look squirrly!:nuts:

 

[FlyingSkip]

Hey Nose---How did I know that another former rag dragger would emerge from hiding when the topic of tailwheel showed it's head?! How's the jet world treating you these days, ML? Doesn't this thread take you back---20-30 kt xwinds on those blustery beach afternoons?! I miss it---nah, not really!!! Kinda like a wisdom tooth you remember fondly...!

I start training banner guys in about a month so I'll be getting my share soon enough---wanna jump out of that Jerman Jet and come down to MB for the summer and take a real man's job?!

 

[Traumahawk]

KEEP THE STICK BACK




That'll be $5

 

[sandman2122]

NEVER stop moving the rudder pedals!

That'll be $10

 

[Cat Driver]

" KEEP THE STICK BACK




That'll be $5 "

And by doing that you will not learn to wheel land land and you will not be a tail wheel pilot.

That will be free advice!!