Ta reached at 9e

[General Lee]

If you seriously think these new 900 pinnacle rates won't be whipsawed against us, you either A.) Don't pay attention to this industry's history....or B.) You are naïve.

Either way...you are in for a rude awakening....and so are the pinnacle guys who will vote yes and move on to another DCI carrier.

Half of them (the Capts) will probably be picked up by the 3 legacies that will be hiring tons of pilots, and the other half will remain in the carcass, all 81 CR9s. Face it, BK wins. That's not good, but it's the truth. It's hard to fight a BK.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

Many of the senior Comair pilots thought the same way you do. They were offered preferential hiring before 9-11, and turned it down. Many of them could have used that to move up, but instead said no. Something that gives you a better chance than most is a good thing. Also, management controls the hiring, not the pilots. Your grandfathered Compass pilots will still move on and help you move up there, and the other legacies will hire a ton also. Did you just get on with Compass? Where were you before? Comair or ASA?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Preferential hiring is not the same as a flow. And Compass isn't the only airline that flies the E170/175.

 

[777forever]

How does delt come after you when you are in the middle of a long term contract? We just had a rate reset a year or two ago that was included in the contract when ASA was sold. So how do you come to a company in the middle of a contract and say "these are the new rates now or your done"?

And I think it is despicable how delt treats its regional "partners". I could understand looking for lower rates if delt was losing millions, but when you are making millions or billions and come looking for a reset when you know your "partner" will be operating at a loss... More like a master/servant relationship than "partners". Corporate greed at its finest. Nice job dick. Greed is one of the 7 deadlies!!!!

But whatever.

Does anyone of confirmation that there is no more rate resets? Pinnacle pilots keep saying that the union is telling them at roadshows that Delta is coming after XJT /SKYW next when they pass the TA. Pretty sad to hear that kind of vibe coming from any union leadership, especially when many of their furloughs will apply to XJT or Skywest.

If the TA passes, things may get ugly within the DCI portfolio for Skywest Inc IF there is another rate reset.

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[flyboyike]

And that doesn't even consider the fact that it's just immoral to not reach out to help your union brothers and sisters at the regional carriers that feed you.

Morality left this business a long time ago, assuming there ever was any therein.

 

[Clutch]

Does anyone of confirmation that there is no more rate resets? Pinnacle pilots keep saying that the union is telling them at roadshows that Delta is coming after XJT /SKYW next when they pass the TA. Pretty sad to hear that kind of vibe coming from any union leadership, especially when many of their furloughs will apply to XJT or Skywest.

If the TA passes, things may get ugly within the DCI portfolio for Skywest Inc IF there is another rate reset.

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Gee you think? Skywest doesn't bid to fly routes below cost. Pinnacle does. And if this TA passes, which it will, it's the pilots paying for it. Essentially paying for their jobs.

 

[ASAFOE120]

Does anyone of confirmation that there is no more rate resets? Pinnacle pilots keep saying that the union is telling them at roadshows that Delta is coming after XJT /SKYW next when they pass the TA. Pretty sad to hear that kind of vibe coming from any union leadership, especially when many of their furloughs will apply to XJT or Skywest.

If the TA passes, things may get ugly within the DCI portfolio for Skywest Inc IF there is another rate reset.

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Not sure about when the next reset may occur. Might just be when the leases for the a/c come up for renewal like when we lost those planes to G7. I know we had one at the 5 year mark which we had to become the second lowest cost DCI carrier.

As far as the 9E union reps saying they should go ahead and vote this TA in because EV & OO are next for concessions, they should be ASHAMED of themselves if true!!!!

 

[Clutch]

Pinnacle does it cheaper!

 

[amcnd]

"Rate reset" every 2 years...

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Not sure about when the next reset may occur. Might just be when the leases for the a/c come up for renewal like when we lost those planes to G7. I know we had one at the 5 year mark which we had to become the second lowest cost DCI carrier.

As far as the 9E union reps saying they should go ahead and vote this TA in because EV & OO are next for concessions, they should be ASHAMED of themselves if true!!!!

I took it as thier way of saying, "falling on your sword to save the others is futile. It is already known ASA/Expressjet is going to be taking concessions with thier JCBA, then Skywest is next".
Yes, it was directly quoted to me that if ASA/Express had done a quick JCBA they might have gained a little for a while, but when they started squabbling over things like who the PBS vendor was going to be, the company came back and said sorry, the industry is changing, this WILL be a concessionary contract.

 

[777forever]

I took it as thier way of saying, "falling on your sword to save the others is futile. It is already known ASA/Expressjet is going to be taking concessions with thier JCBA, then Skywest is next".
Yes, it was directly quoted to me that if ASA/Express had done a quick JCBA they might have gained a little for a while, but when they started squabbling over things like who the PBS vendor was going to be, the company came back and said sorry, the industry is changing, this WILL be a concessionary contract.

It is already known?!? Known by whom?

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[WTF-Over]

Facts

The facts are these: 9E had an ASA reset about 2 years ago when joined with XJ as part of the deal. Delta told 9E that they would operate the 200's through 2017. Oops..Delta "changed" their minds. The combined "New" 9E had a good and quick JCBA, its believed that Delta said, "get it done quick, well take care of it later". And they did, (Bankruptcy).
Previous 9E management did under bid a contract to "get a foot in the door". Their total lack of management ability helped send 9E into bankruptcy. The under bidding is history. COMAIR was used as an example to all the Connection carriers.
It does NOT matter whether 9E pilots vote yes or no to this bankruptcy TA. It will be used against all other connection carriers regardless.
Delta will say either, 9E voted no and they are gone along with comair and YOUR next OR 9E voted YES and your next.
This has nothing to do with 9E pilots voting yes or no, it will be used against everyone else no matter what happens at 9E. So stop blaming others and face reality. We are not in section 6, were are in bankruptcy, meaning we have a virtual gun to our heads, and the trigger will be pulled with either outcome. The industry is changing rapidly do to the mergers and accusations.
When 9E finished the JCBA it showed us at the top of the pay scales as of the Dec. 2012 pay increase. Did this effect the rest of the DCI's by bringing up their collective pay rates? NO, it did not. It only put a target on their backs, just like Comair had for years. 9E voting won't effect your contracts because they all ready are effected.

See this post I put up in 2006, it is coming true: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=75049

 

[gojo]

Morality left this business a long time ago, assuming there ever was any therein.

Not if you listen to Anderson's welcoming speech on the Delta birds.

 

[777forever]

The facts are these: 9E had an ASA reset about 2 years ago when joined with XJ as part of the deal. Delta told 9E that they would operate the 200's through 2017. Oops..Delta "changed" their minds. The combined "New" 9E had a good and quick JCBA, its believed that Delta said, "get it done quick, well take care of it later". And they did, (Bankruptcy).
Previous 9E management did under bid a contract to "get a foot in the door". Their total lack of management ability helped send 9E into bankruptcy. The under bidding is history. COMAIR was used as an example to all the Connection carriers.
It does NOT matter whether 9E pilots vote yes or no to this bankruptcy TA. It will be used against all other connection carriers regardless.
Delta will say either, 9E voted no and they are gone along with comair and YOUR next OR 9E voted YES and your next.
This has nothing to do with 9E pilots voting yes or no, it will be used against everyone else no matter what happens at 9E. So stop blaming others and face reality. We are not in section 6, were are in bankruptcy, meaning we have a virtual gun to our heads, and the trigger will be pulled with either outcome. The industry is changing rapidly do to the mergers and accusations.
When 9E finished the JCBA it showed us at the top of the pay scales as of the Dec. 2012 pay increase. Did this effect the rest of the DCI's by bringing up their collective pay rates? NO, it did not. It only put a target on their backs, just like Comair had for years. 9E voting won't effect your contracts because they all ready are effected.

See this post I put up in 2006, it is coming true: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=75049

I don't follow when you say if PNCL says no and is gone that Delta will go to XJT/ASA next. What ground will Delta have to stand on for reductions if PNCL is gone? There would only be a few options left and GoJet is about the only cheap one left if they get a 900 program. Even if they do I doubt they have the scale to take on a significant amount of lift. Rumors have Air Wisky getting some DCI flying if PNCL folds and that would only drive up the average rates. On the other hand, if the TA is voted in and there is a rate reset in the other airline's contracts in the near term, it could possibily cause a new race to the bottom.

If you are in the top 40% at PNCL, I understand the desire to vote yes, save your job, and look out for your family. If you are in the bottom 60%, to take a $7 an hr paycut ie $7,000 per year paycut in Jan 2013, then fly the line til you're furloughed sometime in 2014 with $6,000 of your own money given back to you as severance pay is IMO, extremely short sighted because the ramifications of voting in the TA will follow you to your new job. Here why I believe so. One, when you are furloughed there will be 800 less regional jobs available due to 800 senior 9E pilots occupying 81 900 jobs, creating less opportunity for advancement at your new carrier(longer time on reserve, longer upgrade). Secondly, the low payrates and workrules paid to those 800 9E pilots will impact your payrates and workrules at new carrier.

I call on 9E FOs to not take a stand for the industry, but to stand for themselves. The Age 65 rule has stalled our careers enough as it is. Don't fly the line any longer than you have at even lower pay just to save The Mississippi Flying Club folk's jobs just to be furloughed while they clog up a significant chunk of the 800 jobs. Let them go retire, head to the FAA, or contract to teach ground at Delta. Give yourself a chance to advance your career elsewhere.

Vote NO and take your career back!

 

[ASAFOE120]

Well said 777

 

[big shacks]

Vote no and start over after 10 years? I'm not going to another regional, not a option. The atrittion is going to be a huge factor for the next two years...I predict hardly any layoffs. Could be wrong but to start over at another regional...no thanks! Almost two years to get on with United, Delta, HA, US...or any other operation besides a regional...riding this one to the grave.

 

[777forever]

Vote no and start over after 10 years? I'm not going to another regional, not a option. The atrittion is going to be a huge factor for the next two years...I predict hardly any layoffs. Could be wrong but to start over at another regional...no thanks! Almost two years to get on with United, Delta, HA, US...or any other operation besides a regional...riding this one to the grave.

My post wasn't aimed at those with your seniority.

With 10 years seniority you're a Captain and you have much more to gain with a yes vote. You may get downgraded to a $38/hr FO slot but you get a decent signing bonus and flow to the expedited interview. 60% of your coworkers will work for over a year with a $7/hr paycut, then get sent to the street with peanuts and less career advancement opportunities if this TA is voted in. It's not worth the sacrifice for FO's , especially after age 65.

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[flyboyike]

Vote no and start over after 10 years?

I started over after almost six years, without ever seeing an upgrade and barely making it off reserve for a little while.

 

[FOrever85]

I don't follow when you say if PNCL says no and is gone that Delta will go to XJT/ASA next. What ground will Delta have to stand on for reductions if PNCL is gone? There would only be a few options left and GoJet is about the only cheap one left if they get a 900 program. Even if they do I doubt they have the scale to take on a significant amount of lift. Rumors have Air Wisky getting some DCI flying if PNCL folds and that would only drive up the average rates. On the other hand, if the TA is voted in and there is a rate reset in the other airline's contracts in the near term, it could possibily cause a new race to the bottom.

If you are in the top 40% at PNCL, I understand the desire to vote yes, save your job, and look out for your family. If you are in the bottom 60%, to take a $7 an hr paycut ie $7,000 per year paycut in Jan 2013, then fly the line til you're furloughed sometime in 2014 with $6,000 of your own money given back to you as severance pay is IMO, extremely short sighted because the ramifications of voting in the TA will follow you to your new job. Here why I believe so. One, when you are furloughed there will be 800 less regional jobs available due to 800 senior 9E pilots occupying 81 900 jobs, creating less opportunity for advancement at your new carrier(longer time on reserve, longer upgrade). Secondly, the low payrates and workrules paid to those 800 9E pilots will impact your payrates and workrules at new carrier.

I call on 9E FOs to not take a stand for the industry, but to stand for themselves. The Age 65 rule has stalled our careers enough as it is. Don't fly the line any longer than you have at even lower pay just to save The Mississippi Flying Club folk's jobs just to be furloughed while they clog up a significant chunk of the 800 jobs. Let them go retire, head to the FAA, or contract to teach ground at Delta. Give yourself a chance to advance your career elsewhere.

Vote NO and take your career back!

There isn't going to be a net increase in jobs wherever they go. Those planes come with the agreement with bombardier to park 50 seaters plane and simple. Those airplanes are going to come with layoffs where ever they go. There isn't going to be growth at the regionals. Quit pretending our FO's are going to have this awesome chance to upgrade and make more money. They aren't.
Delta is in the lead for kicking the crap out of regionals. Untied and Us Air are next.

What about the 222 50 seaters that United is parking?
What happens when United and Delta come after you at the same time?
How many 50 seaters will get parked if American and Us Air merge?

Comair shutting down didn't stop Delta from what they did to us. It is ridiculous to think you are immune.

ASA/Xjt pilots should be glad they aren't getting those planes, because it would be hundreds of your FO's getting laid off not ours.

Until you give date of hire for Pinnacle pilots at your airline, there is no reason we should care about your opinion.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Who would sign a 7 year agreement with no SnapBack provision. Just because your MEC chair is telling you 'all regionals are screwed' doesn't mean it's the truth. On the other hand, he has to sell you an agreement that would make a janitor cry. Enjoy it.

 

[777forever]

Those 800 jobs are going to go to another regional that is going to park 50 seaters. There isn't going to be growth at the regionals. Quit pretending our FO's are going to have this awesome chance to upgrade and make more money. They aren't.
What about the 222 50 seaters that United is parking?
What happens when United and Delta come after you at the same time?
How many 50 seaters will get parked if American and Us Air merge?

The regionals are getting their ass kicked and we are just the next in line.

Comair shutting down didn't stop Delta from what they did to us. It is ridiculous to think you are immune.

Until you give date of hire for Pinnacle pilots at your airline, there is no reason we should care about your opinion.

You make good points. Worse case scenario, if all the above does happen, which I don't believe it will, 800 extra jobs coming available when you hit the street is better than hitting the street with 800 jobs clogged up by PNCL senior guys at low pay, potentially reducing your earning power at the new job.

Back to your other points, I doubt Delta won't be coming after anyone else for 50 seaters as they will be below the 125 cap. As far as UAL, the XJT 10 year cpa already has a swap built in the contract, calling for 1 for 1 up to 75 large RJs. That will drop the 50 seaters fleet significantly without a loss of jobs.

As for your last point, Comair was wholly owned by DAL, PNCL is bankrupt and financed solely by DAL, virtually wholly owned. Skywest Inc is a public company that has an over 100% return on their stock price in the last 4 months. They have mostly long term FFD contracts, a diverse group of partners, a large economy of scale, and excellent balance sheet. Skywest even owns several of the leases to the gates in ATL that Delta uses. They are not immune to problems, but are in a fantastic position.

Voting No won't necessarily give you an awesome chance to upgrade and make more money, but your odds of doing that is much better voting no than yes

Good luck with your decision.



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