T38 Student doesnt turn heat off vid

[Fury220]

if you haven't flown the T-38, lighten up on the dude...

Shack. It gets BALLS HOT in there with the heat cranked up. Given the right circumstances, this could have been any of us.

I love how everyone is so quick to judge the IP/Stud relationship after seeing a 4 minute clip of this stud's flying. I'd be willing to bet my next paycheck that this wasn't the guys first time dorking up something so simple.


And I love the "why does the stud have all the heat controls" questions. Well, if the A/C rheostat is in the rear pit, how the f*ck do you control the temp when you're solo? Listen folks: there's a reason why we don't take 2Lt Bagodunuts right out of cessnas and plop him in the front pit of a T-38. We expect a degree of aviation horse sense by the time a dude shows up for his dollar ride in a Talon. That's what Phase II is for.

 

[TankerDriver]

by the way Otto, how did you get a hold of this tape? I'm sure my coworker wouldn't appreciate you putting it out on flightinfo.com.

Someone uploaded it to a public video hosting website. Who that someone was, who knows?

 

[Fury220]

Someone uploaded it to a public video hosting website. Who that someone was, who knows?

The vid appeared on BaseOps.net first, then made its way here.

Anyway, it's been the hot email to send around your [email protected] address book for the past couple weeks. Just about everyone I know at work has seen it.

 

[Falconjet]

Really??? Fu**. Man, if I'd have had that I wouldn't have busted 3 sorties in IFF for over-Gs in the A model. No s***, a "deedle?" 4th bust and you're on your way out. Last ride was HABFM....I flew the whole thing staring at the G meter!

And for the guy who said "I'd never let anyone talk to me that way!" Well, yeah you would. If you were a 22 yr old just trying to make it to the next ride, you won't say nothin'. Also, if your country sent you to the US, spending tons of cash in the process, you ain't gonna say nothin' to upset the apple cart. Just the way it is. Would I let anyone talk to me that way now? Of course not. Back then? "Yes, sir."

I have to respectfully disagree with you Mag. I was a 24 (1984) year old in Navy Flight School and I had to have it out with a couple of senior officers (both Marine and Navy) for the way they treated me. Now, granted, I was in the CG and didn't really have to worry about my grades (at that time if you wanted fixed wing you pretty much got it and that is what I wanted), and I was already a whopping O2 with almost 2 years of sea time under my belt (big deal), but I refused to be treated like ******************** by somebody who was supposed to be instructing me.

2 stories, these are personal and the first almost got me canned from flight school.

AI inspection. Got reamed in front of entire class for my ribbons on my uniform. They were in strict compliance with CG uniform policy. Didn't care for the dressing down by a Marine Maj who obviously didn't know how I was to wear my ribbons. Wrote it up in a critique (HUGE mistake), got hauled out of Primary at Whiting to go back to Pcola and stand tall before said Major and his boss. Then got to go stand tall in front of the CG Liaison (O6) Officer after that. Got to explain to my Ops Boss in the VT (another Marine) what had happened. Got the message, every critique after that was a glowing endorsement of the entire Navy training experience. Was told I escaped being kicked out by the skin of my teeth.

Second story: In advanced down in CRP in the T44 with my Italian stick partner. Didn't have a good day in the VFR pattern, got reamed in the debrief by the Navy O4 IP and basically accused of being hung over because I was so bad. That was enough of that shiat. You can write me up all you want or give me a down, but to say that to someone who you can't reach with your obviously superior instructional skills (not) is not trying or coming to work hung over is extremely unprofessional. I stood up in the debrief room and explained in a nice loud voice for everybody else to hear that I wouldn't stand for that. People started to gather around to see what was up. The IP simply said that we wouldn't be flying together anymore and I said that it was fine by me.

Got a warmup/eval ride the next day with the Ops O (another Marine) and then moved along through the program with no trouble.

I went on to instruct in the Falcon in the CG "RAG" and I never treated a stud that way. No need or call for it. In fact the entire CG training philosophy was to train to proficiency. Almost everybody could be taught eventually with the right person there to help them (and not necessarily me either, of course).

So although I don't know about this particular incident or IP and will withold judgement, I do think that every stud/JO deserves to get treated with respect and courtesy even if they are having a bad day. Sometimes you just need a change of venue to get through to somebody.

FJ

 

[SIG600]

I gotta agree with Magnum... FJ I think your case was a a little different as you had little more of a leg to stand on. You wern't some wet behind the ears O-1. But when you're just trying to make it through and get along with the IP's... you take your reaming just as Mag said, and move on. The flip side to that is said IP gets a reputaion, and is remembered later on. I've heard of (and flown with) several IP's that were dickheads in the VT's, and guys that came back, remembering, shyt all over them. What goes around comes around I guess. I remember a few myself. I just don't see the benefit in yelling and screaming like that. You may as well turn around and cank they hop because for all practical purposes learning has stopped at that point. Trying to salvage anything beneficial is more or less a waste of gas IMHO.

Funny story (Primary Urban Legend)... IP gets pissed in back of T-34 and chucks kneeboard at knuckle head up front. Stud. pops canopy and tosses IP's kneeboard out. Don't know if it's true or not, but funny none the less.

 

[talondriver]

. I just don't see the benefit in yelling and screaming like that. You may as well turn around and cank they hop because for all practical purposes learning has stopped at that point. Trying to salvage anything beneficial is more or less a waste of gas IMHO.

These are all valid points. One thing that's overlooked when it comes to the yelling on the tape...The T-38 can get pretty loud when the A/C is in full hot. I'm sure he was yelling over the noise. You really can't make out the A/C noise on the tape. You can hear the yelling taper off as life is sucked out of his body. No comment on the cussing though.

 

[Huggyu2]

Good point. As an A-model pilot, that's kind of interesting how the tape makes it sound so quiet, yet we all know that the A/C is cranking out beaucoup heat AND noise.
So, just so I understand: even though the heater is "blowing hot and dry", you won't hear it on the tape, right?

 

[CatfishVT9]

For those of you railing on this guy...let's put you in a cockpit that is 150 degrees (not bsing) with runaway heat and you have NO ability in the rear cockpit to turn it down with a student that doesn't speak English real well. This is a good dude who got in a bad situation, with the temperature going from 150 towards 200, the next action is punching off the canopy, then ejecting, so it's understandable that he got a little upset, in other words, if you haven't flown the T-38, lighten up on the dude...by the way Otto, how did you get a hold of this tape? I'm sure my coworker wouldn't appreciate you putting it out on flightinfo.com.

Tmac,

You said exactly what I was thinking. This guy did the best he could.

I had the same thing in a T-2C a few years back. As soon as we went wheels in the well, the A/C ran full hot. I told the student (an American) to run it down cooler and gave him a few seconds to make it happen. When the temp didn't come down, I took the aircraft (just like this guy did) and told him to try Auto or Manual, either one to get it cool. When that didn't work, I had him turn off the A/C and tuned downwind to land ASAP. I didn't have to yell at him since I could tell he understood and was working on it. We had only gotten to about 4000 ft as I recall (about 1-1/2 minutes or so), and it was already blistering hot. On the landing rollout, I put the canopy up at about 60 kts and that 90 degree mississippi air felt like it was ice cold.

Any of you who fault this guy don't understand how unbearably hot it can get under that greenhouse we call a canopy in just a few seconds.

Catfish

 

[Falconjet]

Tmac,

You said exactly what I was thinking. This guy did the best he could.

I had the same thing in a T-2C a few years back. As soon as we went wheels in the well, the A/C ran full hot. I told the student (an American) to run it down cooler and gave him a few seconds to make it happen. When the temp didn't come down, I took the aircraft (just like this guy did) and told him to try Auto or Manual, either one to get it cool. When that didn't work, I had him turn off the A/C and tuned downwind to land ASAP. I didn't have to yell at him since I could tell he understood and was working on it. We had only gotten to about 4000 ft as I recall (about 1-1/2 minutes or so), and it was already blistering hot. On the landing rollout, I put the canopy up at about 60 kts and that 90 degree mississippi air felt like it was ice cold.

Any of you who fault this guy don't understand how unbearably hot it can get under that greenhouse we call a canopy in just a few seconds.

Catfish

Catfish: That seems to me to have been the best course of action. I personally can't stand any kind of heat on in the cockpit under anything less than artic cold soak conditions. I am always freezing the other pilots out if I control the temp (which I usually do being in the back seat) and I would go ballistic if I was all suited up like those guys are and the heater was in the full hot mode. I can empathize with the IP, but I probably would have just called it quits and RTB'd.

FJ

 

[CatfishVT9]

The only problem though with just calling it quit is that it heats up so hot and so quickly that if the stud can't figure it out it could get unbearable before you can get back on deck. If this feriner (southern for guy from another country) had been with me that day, I might have landed without a roof........

 

[SIG600]

Catfish your story reminds me of an Approach article I read of a dude on a Hornet FCF that had the same problem off the cat. ECS went runaway hot and he couldn't do anything about it. By the time they got the deck clear and the ship pulled ahead, and him in the groove, he'd been cooking for quite a few minutes and said the ambient temp in the cockpit had to be between 160 and 180 degrees. He almost lost consciousness from heat exhaustion. Not a position I'd like to be in at the start of the groove.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I found (in UPT-H and UPT) that some of the FAIPs, I'm assuming because they didn't have much experience, tended to overcompensate for their insecurity by berating/being overbearing to the students.

I think almost all the IPs who came off a real-world assignment had more patience and were more laid back. I'm assuming it's because they had seen more, and perceived student errors didn't seem as major to them as the FAIPs.

I think UPT would be a lot better if there were no FAIPs and they took all the instructors after at least one tour in a real airframe.

Note: I went through UPT at Vance as a Capt via FWQ, so it was different for us. We had mostly experienced IPs and not many FAIPs.

Cliff
YIP
FWQ Vance Summer 1989-Spring 1990.

 

[RadioClash]

Don't be too hard on the IP for yelling.

Maybe the IP ate something bad and was doing the thai pinch in the back seat hoping he's not gonna have a colon blow and the heat goes bonkers and well you know what can happen...

 

[Fury220]

Hi!

I found (in UPT-H and UPT) that some of the FAIPs, I'm assuming because they didn't have much experience, tended to overcompensate for their insecurity by berating/being overbearing to the students.

I think almost all the IPs who came off a real-world assignment had more patience and were more laid back. I'm assuming it's because they had seen more, and perceived student errors didn't seem as major to them as the FAIPs.

I think UPT would be a lot better if there were no FAIPs and they took all the instructors after at least one tour in a real airframe.

Note: I went through UPT at Vance as a Capt via FWQ, so it was different for us. We had mostly experienced IPs and not many FAIPs.

Cliff
YIP
FWQ Vance Summer 1989-Spring 1990.

The IP in this incident was a Lt Col...not a FAIP. I don't see how this has anything else to do with FAIPs. So what gives?



...although I won't argue with you about how AETC shouldn't use 'em. I'd be in a fighter right now. :sigh:

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The FAIP thing doesn't have anything directly to do w/ the overheat situation-just an idea that I think would improve the pilot training at UPT.

CLiff
YIP

 

[talondriver]

Good point. As an A-model pilot, that's kind of interesting how the tape makes it sound so quiet, yet we all know that the A/C is cranking out beaucoup heat AND noise.
So, just so I understand: even though the heater is "blowing hot and dry", you won't hear it on the tape, right?

comm and avionics. Unless you drop your mask and key the mic. You may hear the engines whine a little in the background.

Also, when you turn the pitot heat on in the "Chuck" you can hear a slight tone. So if you ask stan if the pitot heat is on and and he says yes, then you hear the faded tone, you know he just turned it on.
Then I'd hook him for lying to me. :uzi:

 

[mudkow60]

F-it.

I recant my statement.

 

[Falconjet]

kow: are you in Mobile yet? When do you start your transition, or have you already finished?

FJ

 

[KC-10 Driver]

Whether the IP was a pr!ck or not, the video was freakin' hilarious. The IP was so worked up, and the student was so clueless.

I suppose it's so funny to me because I was that student many times.

 

[HoursHore]

How's the saying go?

If you want to see really smart people doing really dumb things, become a Training Command Instructor.