T38 Student doesnt turn heat off vid

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I came in once from an T-38 acro sortie (as a FWQ student). My fellow students were giving me sh!t about over-Ging the airplane.

I told them it wasn't me. Boy, did my IP look like a down-trodden dog at that point!

Cliff
YIP
PS-He wasn't my regular IP. My regular guy was awesome! He was an F-4G driver.

PPS-I learned that if your instructor asks you if you have enough fuel for another approach (because the IP isn't sure himself), the answer is always NO!!!!

 

[Superunknown]

Did you even hear the student through this??? He was more concerned about what the IP was thinking vs. flying his jet!!!

Yes, because the IP was OBVIOUSLY having a manic episode. How does a person with no control over their emotions make it thru military pilot training anyway?

Probably why he is an IP.

 

[mudkow60]

What is a S.N.A.P?

And by the way, I flew with lots of junior guys in the helo community right before I got out of the Navy... and I would never talk to them like that. And having flown in the military for 9 years, more importantly, I would never let someone talk to ME like that....

 

[SIG600]

Sensitive New Age Pilot

Edit... watch out for Fury... he's the Snapassasin!

 

[MJG]

What are the load limit factors for the T-38, sounds like it's easy to exceed a limit if you're not careful ?

 

[Huggyu2]

I know an IP with 3000 hours in the T-38, and I doubt he would let the situation get to that level. That said, I've heard of guys getting runaway heat in the T-38. Apparently, it can get pretty bad. I guess until we're getting fried in the R/C/P, none of us will no how we will react.

G-limits depend on fuel weight, but if you're not doing a rolling maneuver, you can figure about 6G's (give or take a bit). For a rolling manuever, you're good at 4G's.

 

[talondriver]

I've heard of guys getting runaway heat in the T-38. Apparently, it can get pretty bad. I guess until we're getting fried in the R/C/P, none of us will no how we will react.

Shack

 

[TankerDriver]

Yes, because the IP was OBVIOUSLY having a manic episode. How does a person with no control over their emotions make it thru military pilot training anyway?

Probably why he is an IP.

Looking back to my CFI days, there were times I would have loved to scream at a student like that. Unfortunately, there is this thing called "customer service". However, there is no customer service in UPT.

I had an IP that I flew with 2 or 3 times in the T-6 who'd scream and cuss up a storm in the backseat. Then when we got back and debriefed, he was like, "Great sortie. Definitely an E (excellent). Any questions?". Of course I had this dumbfounded look on my face, but after flying with him again, I knew what to expect. He did it to everyone in the class.

 

[SIG600]

Heard a story out of Pensacola from a few years ago of an IP that was notorious for yelling and screamin, banging around etc.

Banged on the canopy during a flight, three times, and the student pulled the handle. IP lost his wings after that. Anyone confirm this?

 

[Jolly Roger]

I spent many years as an IP teaching advanced jet in the Navy training command. I guess I can give this IP the benefit of the doubt if something horrible happened up there.

Other than imminent fear for life and limb, I can see absolutely no reason for this type of behavior. I am dumbfounded! "just fly the profile....". Poor guy.

I have experienced countless days in the south Tx summers manning up airplanes so hot my hands burned climbing in the cockpit (three times a day!) and have never come close to this kind of behavior. I'd be landing immediately after blowing the canopy before yelling like that. Just me, I guess. I must be a pansy.

 

[talondriver]

What are the load limit factors for the T-38, sounds like it's easy to exceed a limit if you're not careful ?

In the C model there's a single and double rate tone (and of course the infamous over-G "deedle") when you pull to a certain percentage of available G based on weight. If you over G, it will mark it on the maintenance fault list which is transfered onto the data card. You can't just zero out your G meter which was considered criminal anyways.
You can also go to the weapons page and select a pod configuration which will limit the G even more.

 

[stonewall]

In the C model there's a single and double rate tone (and of course the infamous over-G "deedle") when you pull to a certain percentage of available G based on weight. If you over G, it will mark it on the maintenance fault list which is transfered onto the data card. You can't just zero out your G meter which was considered criminal anyways.
You can also go to the weapons page and select a pod configuration which will limit the G even more.

Really??? Fu**. Man, if I'd have had that I wouldn't have busted 3 sorties in IFF for over-Gs in the A model. No s***, a "deedle?" 4th bust and you're on your way out. Last ride was HABFM....I flew the whole thing staring at the G meter!

And for the guy who said "I'd never let anyone talk to me that way!" Well, yeah you would. If you were a 22 yr old just trying to make it to the next ride, you won't say nothin'. Also, if your country sent you to the US, spending tons of cash in the process, you ain't gonna say nothin' to upset the apple cart. Just the way it is. Would I let anyone talk to me that way now? Of course not. Back then? "Yes, sir."

 

[mudkow60]

Ummm I'm "that guy"...


I meant I would not let anyone react that way now (as in, now).

I had a NATOPS thrown at me in flight from the back seat of a T-34 in flight school. I know what it means to fear being on the schedule with a particular person. It took me all of advanced and half a fleet tour to get over that feeling. I think it is not the proper way to train folks. Just my opinion.

 

[stonewall]

Agree. No dissent here. We're cool.

 

[Gorilla]

All this T-38C stuff is strange to me, as the last model I am familiar with is the AT-38B.

You T-38 guys can thank me, at least one moderator here (who I will not name), and a bunch of other Holloman IP's for bending the jets all to h3ll. Our mission was to teach BFM, ACM, and ground attack in a dedicated course now long gone... it ended in the early 1990's.

Our biggest challenge was to take a fresh UPT student, usually a tad cocky, and teach them to fly a fighter, not a precision instrument or contact platform. Make them put the jet where they want it RIGHT NOW.

Case in point - the gun jink. Easily one of the hardest maneuvers we had to teach. There you are, almost out of energy, about to get some 23mm upside the head. What will you do? WHAT WILL YOU DO? (Sorry, that's Karl Malden) The student's best was maybe 15 degrees of roll, and add another G.

I've got the jet. "No that's lame, here's how you do it. First what's corner velocity on a T-38? Let's get there. OK, when his nose comes into lead, I want you to unload, roll 45 to 90 degrees, and as HARD AND AS FAST AS YOU CAN, SNATCH THE STICK TO THE SEAT PAN AND HOLD IT THERE."

"Won't that over G the aircraft?"

"Watch the demo, grasshopper."

At corner, we'd unload, roll, and snatch. The G would REEF right to the absolute, symmetric maximum G, then fall off. The maneuver was eye-watering, for a T-38. Unload, roll, pull, unload, roll, pull, and hopefully force a scissors with the bad guy.

The problem was this - as IP's, we had decent judgement on our speed, and would rarely over-G, but the students would do it too fast, or add rudder, or do it rolling. oooopsie. **(*&^^%% I pulled 8 G. Knock it off. Our options were to lie and continue the sortie, or RTB. If it was bad, we'd do the right thing, but countless minor over-G's added up, and all the outer wing panels on the HMN birds were bent like crazy. They looked like F-4's sitting on the ramp.

Thanks for allowing an ex-T-38 old fart reminisce a bit.