T38 Student doesnt turn heat off vid

[Huggyu2]

I know an IP with 3000 hours in the T-38, and I doubt he would let the situation get to that level. That said, I've heard of guys getting runaway heat in the T-38. Apparently, it can get pretty bad. I guess until we're getting fried in the R/C/P, none of us will no how we will react.

G-limits depend on fuel weight, but if you're not doing a rolling maneuver, you can figure about 6G's (give or take a bit). For a rolling manuever, you're good at 4G's.

 

[talondriver]

I've heard of guys getting runaway heat in the T-38. Apparently, it can get pretty bad. I guess until we're getting fried in the R/C/P, none of us will no how we will react.

Shack

 

[TankerDriver]

Yes, because the IP was OBVIOUSLY having a manic episode. How does a person with no control over their emotions make it thru military pilot training anyway?

Probably why he is an IP.

Looking back to my CFI days, there were times I would have loved to scream at a student like that. Unfortunately, there is this thing called "customer service". However, there is no customer service in UPT.

I had an IP that I flew with 2 or 3 times in the T-6 who'd scream and cuss up a storm in the backseat. Then when we got back and debriefed, he was like, "Great sortie. Definitely an E (excellent). Any questions?". Of course I had this dumbfounded look on my face, but after flying with him again, I knew what to expect. He did it to everyone in the class.

 

[SIG600]

Heard a story out of Pensacola from a few years ago of an IP that was notorious for yelling and screamin, banging around etc.

Banged on the canopy during a flight, three times, and the student pulled the handle. IP lost his wings after that. Anyone confirm this?

 

[Jolly Roger]

I spent many years as an IP teaching advanced jet in the Navy training command. I guess I can give this IP the benefit of the doubt if something horrible happened up there.

Other than imminent fear for life and limb, I can see absolutely no reason for this type of behavior. I am dumbfounded! "just fly the profile....". Poor guy.

I have experienced countless days in the south Tx summers manning up airplanes so hot my hands burned climbing in the cockpit (three times a day!) and have never come close to this kind of behavior. I'd be landing immediately after blowing the canopy before yelling like that. Just me, I guess. I must be a pansy.

 

[talondriver]

What are the load limit factors for the T-38, sounds like it's easy to exceed a limit if you're not careful ?

In the C model there's a single and double rate tone (and of course the infamous over-G "deedle") when you pull to a certain percentage of available G based on weight. If you over G, it will mark it on the maintenance fault list which is transfered onto the data card. You can't just zero out your G meter which was considered criminal anyways.
You can also go to the weapons page and select a pod configuration which will limit the G even more.

 

[stonewall]

In the C model there's a single and double rate tone (and of course the infamous over-G "deedle") when you pull to a certain percentage of available G based on weight. If you over G, it will mark it on the maintenance fault list which is transfered onto the data card. You can't just zero out your G meter which was considered criminal anyways.
You can also go to the weapons page and select a pod configuration which will limit the G even more.

Really??? Fu**. Man, if I'd have had that I wouldn't have busted 3 sorties in IFF for over-Gs in the A model. No s***, a "deedle?" 4th bust and you're on your way out. Last ride was HABFM....I flew the whole thing staring at the G meter!

And for the guy who said "I'd never let anyone talk to me that way!" Well, yeah you would. If you were a 22 yr old just trying to make it to the next ride, you won't say nothin'. Also, if your country sent you to the US, spending tons of cash in the process, you ain't gonna say nothin' to upset the apple cart. Just the way it is. Would I let anyone talk to me that way now? Of course not. Back then? "Yes, sir."

 

[mudkow60]

Ummm I'm "that guy"...


I meant I would not let anyone react that way now (as in, now).

I had a NATOPS thrown at me in flight from the back seat of a T-34 in flight school. I know what it means to fear being on the schedule with a particular person. It took me all of advanced and half a fleet tour to get over that feeling. I think it is not the proper way to train folks. Just my opinion.

 

[stonewall]

Agree. No dissent here. We're cool.

 

[Gorilla]

All this T-38C stuff is strange to me, as the last model I am familiar with is the AT-38B.

You T-38 guys can thank me, at least one moderator here (who I will not name), and a bunch of other Holloman IP's for bending the jets all to h3ll. Our mission was to teach BFM, ACM, and ground attack in a dedicated course now long gone... it ended in the early 1990's.

Our biggest challenge was to take a fresh UPT student, usually a tad cocky, and teach them to fly a fighter, not a precision instrument or contact platform. Make them put the jet where they want it RIGHT NOW.

Case in point - the gun jink. Easily one of the hardest maneuvers we had to teach. There you are, almost out of energy, about to get some 23mm upside the head. What will you do? WHAT WILL YOU DO? (Sorry, that's Karl Malden) The student's best was maybe 15 degrees of roll, and add another G.

I've got the jet. "No that's lame, here's how you do it. First what's corner velocity on a T-38? Let's get there. OK, when his nose comes into lead, I want you to unload, roll 45 to 90 degrees, and as HARD AND AS FAST AS YOU CAN, SNATCH THE STICK TO THE SEAT PAN AND HOLD IT THERE."

"Won't that over G the aircraft?"

"Watch the demo, grasshopper."

At corner, we'd unload, roll, and snatch. The G would REEF right to the absolute, symmetric maximum G, then fall off. The maneuver was eye-watering, for a T-38. Unload, roll, pull, unload, roll, pull, and hopefully force a scissors with the bad guy.

The problem was this - as IP's, we had decent judgement on our speed, and would rarely over-G, but the students would do it too fast, or add rudder, or do it rolling. oooopsie. **(*&^^%% I pulled 8 G. Knock it off. Our options were to lie and continue the sortie, or RTB. If it was bad, we'd do the right thing, but countless minor over-G's added up, and all the outer wing panels on the HMN birds were bent like crazy. They looked like F-4's sitting on the ramp.

Thanks for allowing an ex-T-38 old fart reminisce a bit.

 

[Vector4fun]

You T-38 guys can thank me, at least one moderator here (who I will not name), and a bunch of other Holloman IP's for bending the jets all to h3ll. Our mission was to teach BFM, ACM, and ground attack in a dedicated course now long gone... it ended in the early 1990's.

Thanks for allowing an ex-T-38 old fart reminisce a bit.

Hey Gorilla,

Thanks again to you HMN guys for giving controllers T-38 rides too.

I still have photos, didn't uke: once. (Had the O2 and AC going pretty good though)



Too bad they won't let the new generation of controllers do that.

 

[Laxman]

There were two Pakis in my IFF class. It was actually scary to have to fly with them. Nothing like seeing a -38 with around 150 Kts of closure at 1000ft on just a rejoin going to the airspace to make you want to keep an eye on them.

Gorilla, there is no option of resetting the G-meter like in the A/B mod. The electronic nanny is there to tell everyone that you over G'd the jet.

 

[JimNtexas]

"We're all armchair QBs until you find yourself in a situation feeling helpless because stan can't comprehend what you're saying...or worse, lies about the position of his/her switches."

Every F-4 backseater can relate to this situation. I doubt if any of us would throw a stone at this IP.

 

[Huggyu2]

V4Fun,
They ARE still flying Air Traffic controllers, at least in my Wing. It's pretty important, especially here, where we have a lot of ATC/Tower issues when it comes to ops/tower understanding each others LimFacs.

 

[Vector4fun]

Huggy, what base is that? I haven't heard of an FAA controller getting a fun military ride for a decade or so. I think it's a great experience.

 

[FastCargo]

You T-38 guys can thank me, at least one moderator here (who I will not name), and a bunch of other Holloman IP's for bending the jets all to h3ll. Our mission was to teach BFM, ACM, and ground attack in a dedicated course now long gone... it ended in the early 1990's.

Thanks for allowing an ex-T-38 old fart reminisce a bit.

Jeez, that's why none of them fly straight!

"Whatta mean the AOA and airspeed mismatch by 10+ knots...on every jet?"

Now I know who to blame....

FastCargo

PS Though it's already been said, when we 'blow' out the system, it gets really, REALLY hot. It doesn't surprise me that the guy (IP) lost it. Imagine your 3rd sortie, hot TX summertime, you're tired, and now you've got something like a hairdryer cranked up to '11' blowing in your face. And you're trying to communicate to a guy who's English is not great.

A situation similar happened to a crew a few years ago. Except what happened is that they lost right AC power just as it went to full hot. When that happened they couldn't depressurise, turn down the heat, NOTHING! It got so bad that they attempted to make a small hole in the canopy with the canopy breaker tool...unfortunately, the small hole turned into a BIG one in the slipstream. Think about how hot it has to get for you to risk something like that....

 

[AdlerDriver]

......... They looked like F-4's sitting on the ramp.

Part of that was due to the genius I had for an IP in the 433rd. Direct quote: "You can't over-G the jet asymmetrically if you roll with the rudder". We'd go out and G it up to the 6-ish G straight pull limits and then stomp in a nice boot full of rudder. Nice loaded roll but I'm sure it bent the hell out of the jet.
Some of those jets were like old shopping carts..... you couldn't get all the wheels to touch the ground at the same time. :laugh:

 

[Fury220]

Sensitive New Age Pilot

Edit... watch out for Fury... he's the Snapassasin!

haha...don't change your profile while intoxicated!

Lesson learned!

 

[Huggyu2]

I figure some of you CBM folks know the IP on the tape. Is this standard for him, or is he a mild mannered dude?

V4F, the controllers we give rides to are mainly military. But we can and do offer them to FAA types too. It's been a while, but mainly due to us just not thinking of it. I've taken some FAA FSDO folks out in the past. That's good money spent, me thinks.

 

[tmac3333]

For those of you railing on this guy...let's put you in a cockpit that is 150 degrees (not bsing) with runaway heat and you have NO ability in the rear cockpit to turn it down with a student that doesn't speak English real well. This is a good dude who got in a bad situation, with the temperature going from 150 towards 200, the next action is punching off the canopy, then ejecting, so it's understandable that he got a little upset, in other words, if you haven't flown the T-38, lighten up on the dude...by the way Otto, how did you get a hold of this tape? I'm sure my coworker wouldn't appreciate you putting it out on flightinfo.com.