SWAPA wins grievance with company

[canyonblue]

Why did management get involved at all with th SLI? That was bonehead dumb, and it fostered disunity with the newest members of your group. It also benefitted YOU. No AT 737 Capts "allowed" to flow over as a 737 capt? That would NEVER, EVER happen in arbitration. You guys somehow got lucky......


Bye Bye---General Lee

The stalker is back, and you fit the definition:

The motivations for stalking are many. They include the desire for contact and control, obsession, jealousy, and anger and stem from the real or imagined relationship between the victim and the stalker. The stalker may feel intense attraction or extreme hatred. Many stalkers stop their activity when confronted by police intervention, but some do not. The more troublesome stalker may exhibit a personality disorder, such as obsessive-compulsive behavior, which leads him to devote an inordinate amount of time to writing notes and letters to the intended target, tracking the victim's movements, or traveling in an attempt to achieve an encounter.

Get some help please. I have been on this board much longer than you, and have never seen a person display such irrational behavior, ever. I might rag on the Delto pilots on this board, but you are an embarrassment to the profession and possibly in need of professional treatment.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Irony is the fact that only WN pilots don't believe they owe GK anything. He's coming for his pound of flesh and the majority will give it to him. Unfortunately, I don't know how much of the 13% give a rat's behind to help you avoid it.

Nice flame.

Your post contradicts itself with its innate absurdity. If it's true, like you say, that on the one hand that "only WN pilots don't believe they owe GK anything," then why, on the other hand, would "the majority" be inclined to give a "pound of flesh" to GK in return? Do you not even see how ridiculous your own assertion sounds? The fact is, that Southwest pilots believe that they've already given their share to the cause, and that we are the ones who are "owed." It's only pissed-off AirTran guys (and General Lee) who seem to think it's the other way around.

Your incessant anti-SWA rhetoric belies your bitterness, and your apparent wish for your own new employee group's failure takes your bitterness to a new level of self-defeatist stupidity.

Bubba

 

[HowardBorden]

You're missing the key point, Howie: the group changed their opinion only after Gary made his threats public. Up until that point, the group was adamantly opposed to the SIA. It's unlikely that Gary would have started issuing threats in the middle of a vote on SIA1, so the vote almost certainly would have failed. Which, I believe, is what Gary wanted all along, anyway.

Actually I believe you are missing my point. You consistently claim that the group would have voted down AIP1, but by your own admission the group was completely unpredictable and said one thing and then did another. You have absolutely no idea what the outcome of a vote might have been but that admission does not fit the narrative where you paint yourself as the keeper of all knowledge and smart enough to not let the idiot line swine circumvent your omnipotence.

 

[PCL_128]

I never claimed that the pilot group was "unpredictable," so your premise is false. The pilot group wasn't unpredictable, their behavior was merely controlled by fear.

 

[PCL_128]

The fact is, that Southwest pilots believe that they've already given their share to the cause, and that we are the ones who are "owed." It's only pissed-off AirTran guys (and General Lee) who seem to think it's the other way around.

I'm willing to bet that Gary also sees it differently than you do. Prepare for a 7-year Section 6 fight.

 

[scoreboardII]

7 yr? Hardly, GK is setting it up to be done by end of year. That way when the pilots fold, they can use that as leverage against the other unions.

 

[PCL_128]

Not a chance. All of them are going to be stuck in long Section 6 fights. Welcome to how the rest of the industry handles labor negotiations.

 

[Mk3tm]

I never claimed that the pilot group was "unpredictable," so your premise is false. The pilot group wasn't unpredictable, their behavior was merely controlled by fear.

Ole PCL veers near some truth but not enuf.

PCL says GK briefed the MEC, the MC, the ALPA staff, etc. That was on July 14, '11, before ALPA signed the agreement with SWA which had the pay, the capt seats, the fence, the furlough protections, etc. We got the email announcing the agreement on July 16.

PCL says "some" of the MEC didn't know what to make of GK's briefing. Well, they decided to ignore their confusion and instead of being honest and letting people make their own determination, the ATL council sent out an email telling everyone "there's absolutely nothing to worry about". That's about the time our EVP was advising the MEC they had to vote no cuz the pilots couldn't be trusted to make the decision.

Our ALPA "leaders" had everybody unsure of which way to turn. People knew there was more to the story but couldn't get straight answers from anybody.

But the claim that the pilots were "adamantly opposed all along" isn't true. In fact the MCO pilots got a briefing by the MC right after they reached the agreement, and the pilots there passed a resolution trying to get the entire MEC to allow a pilot vote. A guy at that meeting sent me some notes he took. The MC was asked about the risks and said ALPA lawyers had said the courts would not force SWA to integrate, said GK had discussed not integrating, had referred to the fate of Muse/Transtar guys. That stuff got buried afterwards cuz it was only heard at MCO.

PCL says "some" of the MEC thought GKs briefing was vague. Our Comm Chair was there and he didn't think it was vague. Neither did the MC, who called it a "game changer" and said the package didn't make sense without that briefing. They tried to publish GK's remarks but "some" of the MEC wouldn't let them. At the recall meeting for those reps in Sept we learned that the lawyers had advised them to publish the info but the MEC ignored that. Pilots=Mushrooms.

I was looking back at those ALPA emails and found a little tidbit buried in an eWeakly from Aug 20, '11, right after the MEC torpedoed the deal by not allowing us to vote. The Merger chairman explained the process to that point. ALPA and SWAPA can't get close to a deal, so SWA steps in with what he called a "comprehensive package". ALPA rejects it. SWA and ALPA keep negotiating. ALPA accepts that deal.

But a few weeks later ALPA denies the pilots a vote on that deal, the deal ALPA had already accepted, and SWA pulls the offer.

After that, GK publicized the remarks he'd made to the MEC weeks earlier, and you bet the pilots were scared. Apparently the MEC was "ruled by fear" too, cuz the entire MEC voted unanimously for a far worse deal than they had just shot down by 7-1, and some of them ran to SWA as fast as they could. Maybe they were just stupid and dishonest.

So ALPA gets three offers from SWA and only lets the pilots vote on the last, worst one when it's a "take it or leave it" deal. ALPA tells us, vote no and you're voting to maybe end your career, vote yes and you integrate. Nice work, ALPA.

 

[islandhoper]

I think it just holds the ratio of CA upgrades that SWAPA expected with the 737 conversion. Since it recently became obvious that they would not make the conversion timeline, this was the resolution.

For FAT after Jan1? I see a front loading of CA on the SW side (as you said), then it's fair game after Jan 1 on who can hold it. When there's another CA vacancy.

So funny...

 

[redflyer65]

So funny...

It's so good, we're all laughing!

 

[CaptWidgeon]

It's so good, we're all laughing!

All the way to the bank.

 

[dicko]

You see difference between an SLI with a tight time line and Section 6 while our profits are increasing? HUGE difference my friend.

Yeah. It was a really "tight timeline" Red. You do realize that it's 2014 and only 30% of aircraft and pilots have been moved ?

The tight timeline was as manufactured as GKs outrage when we didn't accept his first slice of slap and tickle. Perhaps you'd like to come up with another excuse why it's different.

 

[redflyer65]

Yeah. It was a really "tight timeline" Red. You do realize that it's 2014 and only 30% of aircraft and pilots have been moved ?

The tight timeline was as manufactured as GKs outrage when we didn't accept his first slice of slap and tickle. Perhaps you'd like to come up with another excuse why it's different.

What was the SLI timeline in the Process Agreement Dicko? 6 months? It was signed by all parties. If that's GK's timeline, then so be it.

He's the big boy question for you..

What's the timeline for Section Six?

 

[RLAblows]

Ole PCL veers near some truth but not enuf.

PCL says GK briefed the MEC, the MC, the ALPA staff, etc. That was on July 14, '11, before ALPA signed the agreement with SWA which had the pay, the capt seats, the fence, the furlough protections, etc. We got the email announcing the agreement on July 16.

PCL says "some" of the MEC didn't know what to make of GK's briefing. Well, they decided to ignore their confusion and instead of being honest and letting people make their own determination, the ATL council sent out an email telling everyone "there's absolutely nothing to worry about". That's about the time our EVP was advising the MEC they had to vote no cuz the pilots couldn't be trusted to make the decision.

Our ALPA "leaders" had everybody unsure of which way to turn. People knew there was more to the story but couldn't get straight answers from anybody.

But the claim that the pilots were "adamantly opposed all along" isn't true. In fact the MCO pilots got a briefing by the MC right after they reached the agreement, and the pilots there passed a resolution trying to get the entire MEC to allow a pilot vote. A guy at that meeting sent me some notes he took. The MC was asked about the risks and said ALPA lawyers had said the courts would not force SWA to integrate, said GK had discussed not integrating, had referred to the fate of Muse/Transtar guys. That stuff got buried afterwards cuz it was only heard at MCO.

PCL says "some" of the MEC thought GKs briefing was vague. Our Comm Chair was there and he didn't think it was vague. Neither did the MC, who called it a "game changer" and said the package didn't make sense without that briefing. They tried to publish GK's remarks but "some" of the MEC wouldn't let them. At the recall meeting for those reps in Sept we learned that the lawyers had advised them to publish the info but the MEC ignored that. Pilots=Mushrooms.

I was looking back at those ALPA emails and found a little tidbit buried in an eWeakly from Aug 20, '11, right after the MEC torpedoed the deal by not allowing us to vote. The Merger chairman explained the process to that point. ALPA and SWAPA can't get close to a deal, so SWA steps in with what he called a "comprehensive package". ALPA rejects it. SWA and ALPA keep negotiating. ALPA accepts that deal.

But a few weeks later ALPA denies the pilots a vote on that deal, the deal ALPA had already accepted, and SWA pulls the offer.

After that, GK publicized the remarks he'd made to the MEC weeks earlier, and you bet the pilots were scared. Apparently the MEC was "ruled by fear" too, cuz the entire MEC voted unanimously for a far worse deal than they had just shot down by 7-1, and some of them ran to SWA as fast as they could. Maybe they were just stupid and dishonest.

So ALPA gets three offers from SWA and only lets the pilots vote on the last, worst one when it's a "take it or leave it" deal. ALPA tells us, vote no and you're voting to maybe end your career, vote yes and you integrate. Nice work, ALPA.

That is it in a nutshell. Bravo! Our entire MEC showed us a great example of buffoonery at its finest and what not to do when entire careers are at stake. Yet, almost 90% of the party involved has already transitioned over leaving us with this disaster.

 

[dicko]

7 yr? Hardly, GK is setting it up to be done by end of year. That way when the pilots fold, they can use that as leverage against the other unions.

I wonder how retro will be calculated, and how that methodology will affect former AirTran pilots on the SWAPA list ? I bet there's a way to make the cheque GK has to sign considerably smaller. After all, 22% of the pilot group is not an insignificant number.

SWAPA wouldn't fuk its newest members ....... would it ? :erm:

 

[canyonblue]

I wonder how retro will be calculated....

The same way it has always been, off of your SWA W2. I don't see the problem here.

 

[dicko]

The same way it has always been, off of your SWA W2. I don't see the problem here.

The fact that you don't see a problem isn't surprising. That nice man in Cleveland thought it was normal to keep three women as slaves for a decade. It's called normalized deviance. I'm sure that they teach you about it in CRM class, right after the GPWS and CFIT lectures that some of you must have slept through I love Albuquerque this time of year. Don't you ......

SWA has around 8000 pilots generating income for them. That's been the case for some time.

 

[PCL_128]

Ole PCL veers near some truth but not enuf.

PCL says GK briefed the MEC, the MC, the ALPA staff, etc. That was on July 14, '11, before ALPA signed the agreement with SWA which had the pay, the capt seats, the fence, the furlough protections, etc. We got the email announcing the agreement on July 16.

PCL says "some" of the MEC didn't know what to make of GK's briefing. Well, they decided to ignore their confusion and instead of being honest and letting people make their own determination, the ATL council sent out an email telling everyone "there's absolutely nothing to worry about". That's about the time our EVP was advising the MEC they had to vote no cuz the pilots couldn't be trusted to make the decision.

Our ALPA "leaders" had everybody unsure of which way to turn. People knew there was more to the story but couldn't get straight answers from anybody.

But the claim that the pilots were "adamantly opposed all along" isn't true. In fact the MCO pilots got a briefing by the MC right after they reached the agreement, and the pilots there passed a resolution trying to get the entire MEC to allow a pilot vote. A guy at that meeting sent me some notes he took. The MC was asked about the risks and said ALPA lawyers had said the courts would not force SWA to integrate, said GK had discussed not integrating, had referred to the fate of Muse/Transtar guys. That stuff got buried afterwards cuz it was only heard at MCO.

PCL says "some" of the MEC thought GKs briefing was vague. Our Comm Chair was there and he didn't think it was vague. Neither did the MC, who called it a "game changer" and said the package didn't make sense without that briefing. They tried to publish GK's remarks but "some" of the MEC wouldn't let them. At the recall meeting for those reps in Sept we learned that the lawyers had advised them to publish the info but the MEC ignored that. Pilots=Mushrooms.

I was looking back at those ALPA emails and found a little tidbit buried in an eWeakly from Aug 20, '11, right after the MEC torpedoed the deal by not allowing us to vote. The Merger chairman explained the process to that point. ALPA and SWAPA can't get close to a deal, so SWA steps in with what he called a "comprehensive package". ALPA rejects it. SWA and ALPA keep negotiating. ALPA accepts that deal.

But a few weeks later ALPA denies the pilots a vote on that deal, the deal ALPA had already accepted, and SWA pulls the offer.

After that, GK publicized the remarks he'd made to the MEC weeks earlier, and you bet the pilots were scared. Apparently the MEC was "ruled by fear" too, cuz the entire MEC voted unanimously for a far worse deal than they had just shot down by 7-1, and some of them ran to SWA as fast as they could. Maybe they were just stupid and dishonest.

So ALPA gets three offers from SWA and only lets the pilots vote on the last, worst one when it's a "take it or leave it" deal. ALPA tells us, vote no and you're voting to maybe end your career, vote yes and you integrate. Nice work, ALPA.

So many lies, it's not even worth addressing. Believe whatever makes you feel better.

 

[madjack]

Nice retort

 

[Mk3tm]

So many lies, it's not even worth addressing. Believe whatever makes you feel better.

There's not a lie in anything I've posted.

You've got some nerve calling AT pilots cowards for taking ALPA's recommendation. If JB votes ALPA in I hope they get an organization led with more character than that.