SWAPA wins grievance with company

[RLAblows]

All of the evidence was that the first agreement would have failed significantly. Email records, attendance at the meeting, phone calls records, etc. Get over it.

you are so full of sh!t. They were recalled by what percentage again? It looked like one of the largest voter turnouts our council ever had. Plus our vice chair said at the recall meeting, "I don't have time to go through all my emails or voice mails."

You seem to live by a motto of, "here's another fact I just made up."

 

[PCL_128]

Does that evidence come from the exact same group of people that you claim demanded AIP1 killed without a vote before they demanded they should have been allowed a vote on AIP1?

The pilots did an abrupt 180 as soon as Gary started making his threats publicly. The very same people who sent emails, made phone calls, even made long speeches at the MEC meeting against sending the agreement out for a vote suddenly tucked tail and cowered in the corner. Unfortunately for them, no matter how much they insist that they were always in favor of the deal going out for a vote, their emails live in on perpetuity showing the truth.

 

[PCL_128]

Too bad. If you had let it go to a vote, and it had failed like you now say it would have, then you would have gotten the arbitration that you wanted all along. That's what GK's "hardball" was all about--from the start, he made it clear that he wanted all the pilots to vote.

Bubba

I didn't give a sh!t then what Gary wanted, and I still don't.

 

[Kharma Police]

I didn't give a sh!t then what Gary wanted, and I still don't.

Again, you're quitting so why do you care?

 

[HowardBorden]

All of the evidence was that the first agreement would have failed significantly. Email records, attendance at the meeting, phone calls records, etc.

Does that evidence come from the exact same group of people that you claim demanded AIP1 killed without a vote before they demanded they should have been allowed a vote on AIP1?

The pilots did an abrupt 180 as soon as Gary started making his threats publicly.

You made my point for me. You can't claim the evidence shows AIP1 would have failed due to the sentiment of the group when the exact group you are referencing very loudly demanded a vote should have been given and punctuated that stance with a recall of the officials that denied the vote!

 

[Mk3tm]

PCl has offered some info of actual value here.

The pilots did an abrupt 180 as soon as Gary started making his threats publicly. The very same people who sent emails, made phone calls, even made long speeches at the MEC meeting against sending the agreement out for a vote suddenly tucked tail and cowered in the corner. Unfortunately for them, no matter how much they insist that they were always in favor of the deal going out for a vote, their emails live in on perpetuity showing the truth.

Key word "publicly". The status reps and the merger committee and the ALPA staff had all that info way before the vote bc GK had briefed them in Dallas. But they didn't tell us all that.

In fact, the status reps and the EVP made sure GK's briefing was not quoted to the pilots. The Merger Committee SIC described it in detail on our forum later how the EVP and status reps went out of their way to cover it up. The MC chairman apparently went along. Thanks again.

All of the evidence was that the first agreement would have failed significantly. Email records, attendance at the meeting, phone calls records, etc. Get over it.

The meeting, singular. One meeting, attended by maybe 200 guys, on the most career-changing decision of your life. I was there. Of those 200, maybe 75% were against but, as you just admitted above, they'd have thought differently if ALPA had been honest.

I didn't give a sh!t then what Gary wanted, and I still don't.

That doesn't match what the Merger Comm SIC said on our forum. He said our EVP joined in squashing publication of the GK threats by saying, "we owe GK confidentiality". Sounds like the pilots took a back seat to GK.

 

[SWA Bubba]

I didn't give a sh!t then what Gary wanted, and I still don't.

Too bad.

Too bad you didn't go along with the intent of what you agreed to do in the PA. You would have gotten what you really wanted--arbitration--and, you would have avoided a lot of the crap that's going on now. That is, of course, if the first agreement really would have "failed significantly."

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

You made my point for me. You can't claim the evidence shows AIP1 would have failed due to the sentiment of the group when the exact group you are referencing very loudly demanded a vote should have been given and punctuated that stance with a recall of the officials that denied the vote!

You're missing the key point, Howie: the group changed their opinion only after Gary made his threats public. Up until that point, the group was adamantly opposed to the SIA. It's unlikely that Gary would have started issuing threats in the middle of a vote on SIA1, so the vote almost certainly would have failed. Which, I believe, is what Gary wanted all along, anyway.

 

[redflyer65]

Your right PCL.

ALPA should have kept those threats secret from it's membership.

Good job!

 

[PCL_128]

Your right PCL.

ALPA should have kept those threats secret from it's membership.

Good job!

ALPA didn't keep any threats secret. The threats merely became more "direct" after the SIA was voted down. It was all very vague before then. But the vague threats were in the MC's presentation. They were so vague, however, that some members of the MEC didn't even consider them to be threats at all.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Your right PCL.

ALPA should have kept those threats secret from it's membership.

Good job!

Red, will SWAPA broadcast all the threats made during section six negotiations? For all of our sakes, I hope not. We'll end up with all kinds of code shares and preferential bidding because you'll all take the first offer.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

BTW, I hope SWAPA is pushing for a 20 year f/o pay scale, you're going to need it.

 

[redflyer65]

Luv,

It was said on here many times that the AirTran MC should have made their BEST argument (and subsequent agreement) up front. It was basically going to be one good bite at the apple.

Was it good enough? Did they choke? In hindsight, it was better than offer number two, which we predicted. The pilots at SW understood that. Section 6 is a different animal. More a marathon than a sprint with no tight timelines like the integration.

Nice try at flame though.

 

[redflyer65]

BTW, I hope SWAPA is pushing for a 20 year f/o pay scale, you're going to need it.

Haha.

Na, I won't need a 20 year payscale. But thanks for your concern.

 

[PCL_128]

Red, will SWAPA broadcast all the threats made during section six negotiations? For all of our sakes, I hope not. We'll end up with all kinds of code shares and preferential bidding because you'll all take the first offer.

Exactly.

 

[redflyer65]

That's right, we'll buckle our knees and bend over without lube....oh wait, PCL says that's your deal. What a great Rep!

 

[General Lee]

The obvious problem here was management got involved with the SLI. Not a good decision. It should have gone straight to arbitration where it would have been done by neutrals. The Corndogs watched two previous mergers, and didn't want to follow how the only successful one went. Nope. Now there will be disloyalty for years, and we all know, even Howie, that's what happened. Don't play dumb Howie.... Now Red-liar, I can understand that...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

The obvious problem here was management got involved with the SLI. Not a good decision. It should have gone straight to arbitration where it would have been done by neutrals. The Corndogs watched two previous mergers, and didn't want to follow how the only successful one went. Nope. Now there will be disloyalty for years, and we all know, even Howie, that's what happened. Don't play dumb Howie....


Bye Bye---General Lee

What does it matter to you Idiot?

You going to still be talking about it 5 years from now? 10? Should I be talking about the DL guys that got hosed prior to bankruptcy, or the Northwest guys that got moved down the list and screwed? Why would I care? I don't.

But you keep posting the same BS, year in and year because you have to feel important. Have at it.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Luv,

It was said on here many times that the AirTran MC should have made their BEST argument (and subsequent agreement) up front. It was basically going to be one good bite at the apple.

Was it good enough? Did they choke? In hindsight, it was better than offer number two, which we predicted. The pilots at SW understood that. Section 6 is a different animal. More a marathon than a sprint with no tight timelines like the integration.

Nice try at flame though.

You didn't answer the question. Will, or would you want, SWAPA to broadcast mgmt s threats during section 6 negotiations? For those of us that have dealt directly with mgmt. In different capacities, threats are par for the course. In fact, it's kind of fun to threaten mgmt. Catches them off guard. It's also kind of funny to pass on old threats of mgmt that never came to fruition because that's all they were, threats.

 

[redflyer65]

Sure, I'll pass them along. Haven't heard anything yet. They want PBS and codeshare. That isn't going to happen.

What can they threaten us with? Drag out negotiations? That doesn't really bother me. I say drag it out as the financials continue upward and onward.

You see difference between an SLI with a tight timeline and Section 6 while our profits are increasing? HUGE difference my friend.

 

[General Lee]

What does it matter to you Idiot?

You going to still be talking about it 5 years from now? 10? Should I be talking about the DL guys that got hosed prior to bankruptcy, or the Northwest guys that got moved down the list and screwed? Why would I care? I don't.

But you keep posting the same BS, year in and year because you have to feel important. Have at it.

Wow! Truth hurts.... You guys steamrolled your new guys, and they and the rest of us won't forget it. You and the Easties at US will be remembered for that. Now go out and fight GK for a $1 raise. "Someone" probably owes him for his stance on that ridiculous SLI..... No AT 737 Capts allowed to go over as a Capt on their own 737s? Really? What a joke Red-liar, what a complete joke....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Wow! Truth hurts.... You guys steamrolled your new guys, and they and the rest of us won't forget it. You and the Easties at US will be remembered for that. Now go out and fight GK for a $1 raise. "Someone" probably owes him for his stance on that ridiculous SLI..... No AT 737 Capts allowed to go over as a Capt on their own 737s? Really? What a joke Red-liar, what a complete joke....



Bye Bye---General Lee

Again, your point? It's done and over. Just like your hose job of some of the NW guys. I'm sure they are happy about that.

Owes GK? I like how you just make up your own facts out of thin air and then tout them as such. You call me a liar after you completely fabricate half of your post.

You see the irony here? Most on FI do. I'm especially thankful they call you the Village Idiot as well. Glad it stuck. Of course it didn't take much, just you opening your mouth. As usual.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Irony is the fact that only WN pilots don't believe they owe GK anything. He's coming for his pound of flesh and the majority will give it to him. Unfortunately, I don't know how much of the 13% give a rat's behind to help you avoid it.

 

[redflyer65]

Irony is the fact that only WN pilots don't believe they owe GK anything. He's coming for his pound of flesh and the majority will give it to him. Unfortunately, I don't know how much of the 13% give a rat's behind to help you avoid it.

GK and others are just galvanizing this group. Bringing over the AAI guys that have seen this all before is going to make it worse for them (and good for SWAPA in my opinion).

We've given the 800 at no cost. Given Redeye work rules and international at no cost. Joined in the integration with no cost. Meanwhile, they crank up their salaries 150+% and are beginning to make record profits.

Do you really think we are willing to give anything? Ain't gonna happen.

 

[PCL_128]

Every year you don't have a new contract with pay raises you're "giving" them something. And by all indications, you'll be "giving" for many years to come.

 

[General Lee]

Again, your point? It's done and over. Just like your hose job of some of the NW guys. I'm sure they are happy about that.

Owes GK? I like how you just make up your own facts out of thin air and then tout them as such. You call me a liar after you completely fabricate half of your post.

You see the irony here? Most on FI do. I'm especially thankful they call you the Village Idiot as well. Glad it stuck. Of course it didn't take much, just you opening your mouth. As usual.

Why did management get involved at all with th SLI? That was bonehead dumb, and it fostered disunity with the newest members of your group. It also benefitted YOU. No AT 737 Capts "allowed" to flow over as a 737 capt? That would NEVER, EVER happen in arbitration. You guys somehow got lucky......


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[WMUSIGPI]

You can't grieve something that you already gave away due to cowardice.

ALPA, useless at more than just the regionals.

 

[redflyer65]

Every year you don't have a new contract with pay raises you're "giving" them something. And by all indications, you'll be "giving" for many years to come.

Hey, it is what it is PCL. You know, old school negotiation now. I know you know all about that, but our benefits RIGHT NOW work for me.

I'm not going to buckle short term just to get a deal. Makes no sense with the contract and the money we are making. Now if you were paid half what we were, then I could see more urgency.

But the RLA being what it is, you know there isn't much leverage on our side.....yet. And that's fine.

 

[redflyer65]

Why did management get involved at all with th SLI? That was bonehead dumb, and it fostered disunity with the newest members of your group. It also benefitted YOU. No AT 737 Capts "allowed" to flow over as a 737 capt? That would NEVER, EVER happen in arbitration. You guys somehow got lucky......


Bye Bye---General Lee

You got anything new?


Na, I didn't think so.

 

[PCL_128]

Hey, it is what it is PCL. You know, old school negotiation now. I know you know all about that

Yes, I do. And I can tell you that when management decides to go that route, you can't keep acting like things haven't changed. When their tactics change, yours need to as well. That means picketing, billboards, radio ads, etc. It's the only way to build leverage when the RLA is stacked against you.