SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

[scoreboardII]

shearshaft, you still haven't answered the question, why was the TA so good for the 51% who voted no? The bottom half, the 60plus% of FO's who voted no?

And another thing:

You still haven't addressed the fact that both of these techniques do, in fact, "screw" the senior line-holding, weekday flier who can't ELITT. Why is it ok to screw that guy by restricting tournament level playing?

Why was perfectly OK for YOU to have this opportunity yet you now want to kill it for all those behind you?

I know why, your missing your $1000 a month!!

 

[Flying the Line]

What could be happening to the Frontier guys and gals is reason enough for us to not have such weak language in section 1. C. 1. Mergers.

 

[firstthird]

messed up the quoting.

really? I hardly noticed.

 

[rajflyboy]

The "Peeps" voted no. Time to move forward not backward now !!

 

[firstthird]

How is not letting guys on probation pound on ELITT to change from first year pay to second year pay "screwing" them? They can give away their trips if they want, just don't use ELITT for what is isn't designed for

You do a lot of talking about what stuff was designed for. You sound like a CP with your talking points. ELITT works like it works. Changing it to benefit more senior guys is a change, what did we get for it. And you seem to think that guys can clear their board with ELITT, this is patently not true. you can only trade down if net zero is positive, and as you've pointed out, it rarely is.

The company doesn't want every single probationary FO to give his entire line to ELITT and pick up everything at second year pay

I'm all for letting the company worry about what they want to worry about. As a pilot and a member of a pilot union, I will not stand by while we benefit the haves (senior) at the expense of the havenots (junior and probationary and not on property).

Have you asked flight ops why they wanted this?

again, I don't spend my nights worrying about what flight ops thinks. they had their negotiators, we had ours. Flight ops is perfectly capable of holding up their end of negotiations (I introduce Item A into evidence, the defeated TA), us pilots do not need to lend them a hand.

We'll see. If you could show me that paragraph that says they get to keep their stars, I'd appreciate it. It's been done in the past, but it's not written down.

status quo. it has meaning. if the company tries to change it, we grieve it and it will wake some of the fence sitters up to the fact that the LUV fest has changed. I don't expect them to be that stupid. SWA is very smart. It is just business. If some of the pilots would treat it like that, we'd be better off. not naming any names or anything.

If you're a senior FO, you haven't looked at your pay scale. Senior FOs were going to get 10% hard raises, plus the 401 (k) bump.

I looked. It isn't all about me. I gave up probably more than you since I work more than the average bear. But I think we'll do better. at least get veto over the open time system, then it will be designed with pilots in mind rather than reducing scheduling head count. only at SWA do they spend 10's of millions figuring out how to reduce our lowest paid employees while making our highest paid employees less efficient. first principles here folks.

So this kind of codeshare is "good codeshare"?

none in my mind. that may not be attainable. some of section one was pretty good, some was horrible. my vote wasn't mainly about codeshare. although I am sporting a "no codeshare" bag sticker.

Sheared, I've answered your questions. I'm on the other forums if you really want to get into the nitty-gritty. better yet, get your pprune access and read up on what was discussed the last 2 months. same at the union forum. you might just learn something. you have some valid points, I just don't agree with the weighting that you are giving them. I'm not the only one calling you out and you seem to be ignoring most. your choice but it weakens your FI street cred.

 

[shearedshaft]

Shearshaft,

I'm calling you out. There is NO WAY voting down the TA is costing you $1000 a month.

What's costing you $1000 a month is Mr. Kellys decision to freeze growth which means you aren't getting the biggest raise of your career. We are all frustrated about that but let's not misdirect our focus to where it doesn't belong.

GUP is down $1000 a month because we have reduced flying. The TA would have only made it worse. Much worse. I know because I KNOW how to ethically use our current contract.

Gup

You guys haven't even done the math. Senior FOs would have gotten about a $10 per trip raise (some $11 per trip). Multiply that by 100.

That comes out to...$1,000

And some of us actually fly more than 100 trips per month.

Every captain and every senior FO gave up at least $1,000 per month, every junior FO gave up less, but 6% of their earnings.

So not having an open time system that you can test is worth $1,000/month to you? It isn't to me. The system makes sense to me.

What's funny is that you guys 1) don't even know the value of your raise and 2) haven't thought through how expensive your decision was, over what are almost all minor points. A couple of points on ELITT on one weekend a month for $12,000 per year? Paying this same $1,000 per month to not get notified of extra flying by email or text? What in the world is wrong with you?

Again, if you use ELITT to trade trips (which I, and other weekday fliers can't), you would be better off having it not get abused by lances and first year guys.

If you're a lance, or a first year guy, then keeping ELITT the same and abusing it takes flexibility from the senior guys. It doesn't matter what flight ops wants, but they have the data on what guys are doing to the system, which ultimately harms all of us at some point.

And yes, net zero is always zero...because lances hang out on the system and pound it every time it pokes it's head up. I bet it never stays positive more than a minute or two at a time. Why is keeping net zero equal to zero worth $1,000 per month to you? It's a pain in the butt to the rest of us.

I just read the SWAPA email, it looks like (yet again) I was right...lances who don't meet the eight percent are going to get pimp-slapped, so nice work spending $1,000 per month to grandfather guys that won't be able to be grandfathered, since they won't be lances.

 

[MILPILOT17]

You guys haven't even done the math. Senior FOs would have gotten about a $10 per trip raise (some $11 per trip). Multiply that by 100.

That comes out to...$1,000

And some of us actually fly more than 100 trips per month.

Every captain and every senior FO gave up at least $1,000 per month, every junior FO gave up less, but 6% of their earnings.

So not having an open time system that you can test is worth $1,000/month to you? It isn't to me. The system makes sense to me.

What's funny is that you guys 1) don't even know the value of your raise and 2) haven't thought through how expensive your decision was, over what are almost all minor points. A couple of points on ELITT on one weekend a month for $12,000 per year? Paying this same $1,000 per month to not get notified of extra flying by email or text? What in the world is wrong with you?

Again, if you use ELITT to trade trips (which I, and other weekday fliers can't), you would be better off having it not get abused by lances and first year guys.

If you're a lance, or a first year guy, then keeping ELITT the same and abusing it takes flexibility from the senior guys. It doesn't matter what flight ops wants, but they have the data on what guys are doing to the system, which ultimately harms all of us at some point.

And yes, net zero is always zero...because lances hang out on the system and pound it every time it pokes it's head up. I bet it never stays positive more than a minute or two at a time. Why is keeping net zero equal to zero worth $1,000 per month to you? It's a pain in the butt to the rest of us.

I just read the SWAPA email, it looks like (yet again) I was right...lances who don't meet the eight percent are going to get pimp-slapped, so nice work spending $1,000 per month to grandfather guys that won't be able to be grandfathered, since they won't be lances.

It's all about money to you? Maybe you should do a better job of living w/in your means. Have you figured the tax implications of making that extra money? Obama is just going to take a large percentage of it and give it to the people who don't give a "rats-ass" how hard you work for it! We're all in this together! At least act like you give a sh!t about your fellow SWAPA brothers.

 

[vixin]

He only cares about 1 person. Its good we can block him here, but bad we cant on the SWAPA forum.

 

[ASADFW7]

Last I looked I still got paid on the 20th, life is still a lot better than at ASA.

 

[GuppyWN]

Shearshaft,

You will get your raise - with retro. You will get 3%, not 2%. In doing so we will have an opportunity to not give away the farm IRT the TA's scope and codeshare section.

I find it interesting that you were fear mongering furloughs but yet you admit "lots of us fly over 100 tfp."

You can make more money with ELITT the way it is vs. the way the TA had it.

Gup

 

[whymeworry?]

Get over it (and get over yourself). The vote is in, done. The train has left the station, ship has sailed. You lost the vote. THAT, my friend, is the democratic process. Like it or not. Now stop scaring yourself and start trying to effectuate change. You guys will get whatever you fight for... but ya' gotta' fight. Nobody's going to give it to you.

SW pilots were living in a bubble since their post 9/11 fuel hedges helped their company massively expand. But all good things come to an end at some point. Now it's time to roll up your sleeves and get to work. Show what kind of unionists you are. Like I said, nobody's gonna' give it to you. Ya' gotta' man up. Mgmt expects that.

SW is still a very well-run airline and fuel-hedging aside there is no reason why mgmt should be able to farm out your work. SCOPE... THAT is what the no votes were about.

 

[Mach92]

Get over it (and get over yourself). The vote is in, done. The train has left the station, ship has sailed. You lost the vote. THAT, my friend, is the democratic process. Like it or not. Now stop scaring yourself and start trying to effectuate change. You guys will get whatever you fight for... but ya' gotta' fight. Nobody's going to give it to you.

SW pilots were living in a bubble since their post 9/11 fuel hedges helped their company massively expand. But all good things come to an end at some point. Now it's time to roll up your sleeves and get to work. Show what kind of unionists you are. Like I said, nobody's gonna' give it to you. Ya' gotta' man up. Mgmt expects that.

SW is still a very well-run airline and fuel-hedging aside there is no reason why mgmt should be able to farm out your work. SCOPE... THAT is what the no votes were about.

Well said! Our group (NetJets) woke up in 2004/2005 and finally had said enough! You will only get what you fight for. Stop thinking the TA vote was bad, it's just a new beginning guys. Get a new NC and kick some arse!

 

[Herkdrv]

Sheared I just want to ask you one question. If and that is a big IF, we have any furloughs will you pick up open time?

 

[firstthird]

well, it is all about him. I have a guess.

 

[GuppyWN]

Sure he will but he'll tell you that he is not picking up - he always flies 130tfp so flying 130tfp with brothers on the street is not picking up "extra."

If and when this ever happens 89 is fine. It should sting a little as a reminder that our brothers and sisters are making 0 tfp.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

double post

 

[GuppyWN]

triple post

 

[firstthird]

Last I looked I still got paid on the 20th, life is still a lot better than at ASA.

no doubt. I don't see anyone on this thread arguing that we have it bad. Many of us are saying that the TA was lacking and we'd like to see some stuff get fixed prior to making it our CBA. Sheared disagrees. his right.

if your only criteria for a good contract is that you get paid on the 5th and 20th, well, you have very low standards and would probably be happy at most any airline, since most are meeting their payrolls. even the ones in and out of bankruptcy. some have gone under for good and that sucks. but to say that the TA was good because you got paid on the 20th is a non sequitur.

 

[shearedshaft]

Sheared I just want to ask you one question. If and that is a big IF, we have any furloughs will you pick up open time?

I would no more pick up extra trips with someone on furlough than I would cross a picket line. Would never happen. You guys are devolving into insults again, which makes for a boring conversation.

And you're also missing the point about the money. It's not the absolute amount of the money I am discussing, it is the tradeoff. I contend that you have some heartburn over some stuff. I have heartburn as well.

But when offered the trade of $1,400 per month, or the heartburn, I make a rational decision, I'll take the $1,400 per month. Just like when I buy a car, I decide the trade off between the amount the car costs me and the amount I want the car.

I claim you folks are living in an odd fantasy world, where you get to keep all the money, get to keep all the retro, and get to keep all the good stuff that you tournament-play in the contrat. Cake, meet eat it too.

If gaming the ELITT system is seriously worth about $1,400/month to you, why wouldn't you just take the $1,400, give up on the gaming and live a simpler life? I doubt it is worth that much, unless you're a lance.

Here's an interesting question: if the company came to you and asked you to take a lower than contract guarantee to keep guys on the property, and assuming you would vote yes on that question, would you have been better off with a 10% raise (or 6%) and the cut in line totals, or no raise?

Well, you chose no raise. I claim you wouldn't be better off.

 

[scoreboardII]

I make a rational decision, I'll take the $1,400 per month. .

My paycheck grossed almost exactly $1,000 less than it would have if the T.A. had ratified.

So which is it, $1,000 or $1,400? Your accounting principles are confusing to us lowly no votes.

I claim you wouldn't be better off

Fortunately the majority thinks otherwise, welcome to democracy.