SWAPA Info packet FEDEXed to all AirTran Pilots

[Ty Webb]

Ty, what do you want?: Your seat/seniority/and the better pay and benefits of the SWA CBA...you do realize in order for you to get all these things every SWA pilot would have to pay for it...how is that fair and equitable?...

This is crazy talk. No one has yet shown me how integrating aircraft and crew change YOUR pay, seat, domicile or bidding power one single percentage point.

The only caveat to that involves retirements, but that is a separate issue that can be addressed. The same for our 50 deliveries that were for growth.

Face it, organic growth wasn't the appropriate solution, and wasn't going to happen. For you guys to think that you're going to have some sort of raiding party on our group is a hell of a lot more offensive.

Have a nice day.

PS., put your toys away, no one's impressed. :laugh:

 

[madjack]

Ty: Retirements are huge issue as well as the longevity of the SWA group...Let's take you and I as an example...I have been at SWA a couple of months longer than you have been at AAI...if you keep your seat and seniority you potentially will be making tens of thousands of dollars more a year than I will be making as a senior FO (and almost the same amount more a year than you are making now as an AAI CP)...I don't blame you for wanting these things but to ignore the impact that they will have on the majority of the SWA group is not helpful...Maybe an arbitrator will buy into the AAI arguments that this is a merger of equals, that pay and benefits are temporary and seniority is everlasting, and that no AAI CP shall lose his her seat, no matter how damaging that may be to the career earnings of the SWA pilots...they may also agree that even though, in every scenario of integration the young AAI pilot group will have improved job security and career earnings this is irrelevant...they may also agree that the possible future growth of AAI that was transferred to SWA is a player and is more relevant than the transient nature of the superior current/existing SWA CBA...I don't know, do you??

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty: Retirements are huge issue as well as the longevity of the SWA group...

I already stated this is a separate (and valid) issue. So, again, assuming that point is addressed and remedied, what are YOU losing?

Let's take you and I as an example...I have been at SWA a couple of months longer than you have been at AAI...if you keep your seat and seniority you potentially will be making tens of thousands of dollars more a year than I will be making as a senior FO]

Other than your pride, this hurts you HOW? Your bidding power hasn't changed. For every Captain added, there is a line of flying added. Where is your harm? Your pain, by the way, is pretty short-lived, given that we're only a few months apart.

(and almost the same amount more a year than you are making now as an AAI CP)...

Not true, but if you repeat a lie often enough, some folks will believe it. The difference is at least $20K according to the mailer from your own union, btw.

I don't blame you for wanting these things but to ignore the impact that they will have on the majority of the SWA group is not helpful...

You still haven't shown me how me remaining a captain affects you, except for your hurt feelings.

 

[madjack]

Conversely Ty, how are you hurt if you lose your seat and are pay protected?? Heck you may end up as a very senior SWA FO with increased bidding power, more than you have now and better QOL...Please don't throw the hurt feelings card out...this is all about money and QOL, not what seat you are in...if GK agrees to pay me as a SWA CP so that you can keep your seat, you would be my new best friend and I would happily read you the BSO checklist...Please don't tell me you would rather stay a CP at the AAI rates just so you can be in charge...that is wierd...and not very fair to the hundreds of guys junior to you that may want to join the SWA list...

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Ty and all the others,

If you are going to use the "contracts come and go" argument, you must abandon the argument about our lack of organic growth plans.

It takes years of losses and sometimes bankruptcy to force concessions or break a contract. It takes just a bump in the economy for a company with the financial clout of SWA to resume organic growth.

It has happened before, undoubtedly it would happen again.

 

[Ty Webb]

I guess my retaining my captain seat doesn't affect you, because you still haven't answered the question.

All you did is try to change the subject to a "Ty wants to stay Captain" rant.

So, again, how does my remaining a captain, in the equipment we bring to the merger, affect you adversely, as long as the retirement issue is addressed?

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Exactly Ty. These guys are suggesting downgrading 50% of our captains off of airplanes we're bringing to the deal.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,
We elect our reps and Pres/two VPs...so we are different besides not being ALPA. Other than that, why don't you think outside the box a little on this one maybe. It will come to you...maybe it won't!

I get what you're alluding to (a few others on the SWA side have as well). However, I just don't think the numbers exist for that to make it happen, even if we wanted to. Those guys (and gals) were mostly just voted in, and removing them when they haven't done anything wrong (and are saying what most of our pilots seem to want in regards to the SLI - they want something fair and are letting our MC figure out what that is), would be problematic. Just not enough votes, even if someone wanted to (which there's no indication anyone does).

I'm sure you'll be able to always bid your current line in ATL. History is funny, we hate it in school so we fail to learn it or learn from it, but it always seems to repeat itself! I'm just saying...

There's a lot more factors in play here than ever before in history, including a lot of legal issues that no one has addressed that require integration. NO ONE on your side has explained SPECIFICALLY just how to get around 2 signed and legally-binding documents, PLUS our CBA, statements to the DoJ, DoT, FAA, NMB, and the shareholders.

Until someone can cite a legal way out of *ALL* those things (not just 1 or 2 of them or wide insinuations with no facts), I won't worry about it, as there hasn't been a situation in history where an airline committed in writing in at least half a dozen places to everyone under the sun to integrate then tried to back out of it. It's NOT a threat to you guys, it's simply me not worrying about something that doesn't appear to have legal basis and letting the Process continue to work as agreed.

As far as bidding my current line in ATL, I like my line in MCO. No one has yet to explain just HOW MUCH the average pilot at AAI should have to sacrifice to a SWA pilot in order for you guys to be happy. I thought it was just that you didn't want to be negatively impacted. Neutral impact shouldn't mean "your gain at our expense", correct?

Lear- not trying to flame here but if SWA management is using the "if" word in their correspondence with you, then it probably is a thinly veiled threat.

SWA management didn't, SWAPA did. The mailer that came out is all SWAPA material, with the exception of the intro letter.

SWA can be very cold and brutal if need be. Ask any ATA pilot if you don't believe me. SWA WILL not accept any solution that harms a current SWA pilot's career and neither will we. This of course does not have to be the case though. Hopefully your MC and our NC will be able to hammer something out that is agreeable to both sides.

Different situation than ATA, they never had public commitments to integrate the airlines, nor did they have signed Process Agreements and side letters guaranteeing the same, either. Apples to Oranges.

That said, I agree with you that hopefully our respective negotiators will work something out. It may not come during negotiations, it may come during mediation, it may even come during arbitration (there's nothing that says that during arbitration an agreed solution can't be had prior to a ruling and arbitration abandoned). I'm going to trust our negotiators to find something workable.

Please don't let a few hard core ALPA thugs dictate what the majority of AAI plots want- a reasonable integration in line with previous career expectations. It seems a few gooned it up for the F9 boys and girls, don't let that happen here.

It won't, different situation completely. However, there aren't any ALPA "thugs" in our MEC (whatever that is anyway). Several ex-TWA ex-UAir ex-Mil folks in our MEC with experience from other carriers who don't want this to go south. You may hear from some people that aren't involved at the MEC level; they have no say-so in what happens. The only people that have ANY control at this point are the 8 MEC voting members, the MEC Chair, and the Merger Committee, and none of them could be labeled "ALPA thugs".

PS lot's of moving parts still in this deal. For example, we're now hearing that the 717 sims won't be going to DAL and the planes them selves are being sold to Boeing.

That's pure rumor and isn't correct. The MC briefed the P2P folks not 48 hours ago and reiterated that the latest from SWA management DIRECTLY to the MC was that the 717's are here for now (they have to be, you can't just yank airplanes out of service with tickets sold and service contracts to cities in place). Pilots and rumors... some things never change.

I am thinking that if this thread is indicative of the mood at airtran towards integration, then it will never happen. I wish I could give you guys the perspective here, but it is just something you have to see. You should realize that it is probably most cost-efficient not to integrate and that SWA mgmt is trying to be the good guy here...I would not expect that to last forever.

That's not correct. It costs over $200 Million a year NOT to integrate (that number has been vetted, by the way, by BOTH legal teams). Even with SWAPA giving unlimited codeshare with us and operating us separately (agreements to integrate notwithstanding), it's still an over half a Million a day expense to maintain our overhead (separate operations staff, separate maintenance staff and spares, separate headquarters, etc), but I imagine we'll know more about the mood moving forward towards the end of next week.

That said, what you're seeing here isn't the mood at AirTran towards integration. It's the mood at AirTran in response to a pamphlet from SWAPA (with an attached foreword from your management) that appears to be direct negotiations. Our pilots want to integrate, and they want it to be fair, recognizing that fair isn't one extreme or the other. We just want to have your NC and our MC work it out and bring it to us for vote, just as the Process Agreement states.

We're happy to be here, we're not angry or militant, and no sense worrying about something we can't control. Have a frosty one and enjoy your weekend! :beer:

 

[ASADFW7]

Stop feeding the troll.

 

[SWA/FO]

Save Ty! Save Ty :bawling: Drink plenty of water, with all those tears. Becareful out there. Hope you make it back soon. :nuts: