SWAPA Info packet FEDEXed to all AirTran Pilots

[Lear70]

"Category and class" isn't a term that even exists in labor relations. I think you're thinking of "category and status," which is a term that deals with seniority integration and has been used in virtually every recent arbitration award. It has nothing to do with "craft and class," which is a term used in labor law that you apparently need to brush up on.

You can't win, even though you're 100% absolutely correct.

So many pilots *THINK* they understand the RLA, when in fact they don't know much beyond what parts of their own contract say. There's a REASON unions have lawyers... it's because pilots DON'T KNOW THE LAW. Even pilots with YEARS of experience in the union office day-in and day-out with union attorneys often don't fully get ALL of it.

If you guys really think you're correct, give a quick call to your union office, ask to speak to one of your attorneys on staff, and ask them the definitions of the above terms PCL has quoted to you. You'll find PCL to be spot-on.

Last hint: these ideas you guys are starting to float are ALL things that have occurred to our MC and team of attorneys in Herndon (they've seen a lot of this before with other, recent mergers). They've been asked, vetted, and answered. I'll always admit where there are loopholes or "nuclear options" for you guys, no reason not to.

This isn't one of them.

 

[dicko]

It depends. It may not have existed before but never before has there been such a difference in career expectations either.

No. You just got schooled.

 

[Lear70]

It depends. It may not have existed before but never before has there been such a difference in career expectations either.

It doesn't change the definitions laid down in RLA law, so it doesn't really "depend", but you are right that there hasn't been QUITE this extensive of a disparity in career expectations between two carriers that I can recall.

 

[dh82dvr]

How many SWA FOs bypassed upgrades for the QOL or whatever reason ?

 

[canyonblue]

How many SWA FOs bypassed upgrades for the QOL or whatever reason ?

Probably none, since we just got rid of the "Up or Out" with our last contract, so no one could bypass an upgrade. And we haven't had too many upgrade classes since the new contract went into effect.

 

[roughneck]

There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Choose wisely because that light may not be what you think it is.

Back to lurking.

 

[redflyer65]

Roughneck is exactly right. The nuclear option is to slowly transfer equipment. There is nothing anywhere to keep this from happening. The Muse Air option is still there if the Trannies try to overeach. He knows it, and I think most of them know it as well.

Check the Transition Agreement. No Southwest pilots to be furloughed during this whole process. I know Lear thinks it's an impossiblity, but really I'm not so sure. If Gary gets pushed into a corner by a labor group (and it could be someone other than the pilots), he could very easily pull the plug.

It's the real reason AAI is sitting in the Texas LLC. And to listen to PCL tell it, the only reason is for tax purposes. He's partially right...Guadaloupe was for tax purposes, Texas LLC is not.

Why would Gary set up TWO seperate LLC to attempt to integrate Airtran? It has absolutely nothing to due with taxes, I guarantee you that. Anybody at Airtran that thinks otherwise has his head deep in the sand.

Answer this one question...if it was for tax purposes, why put one more LLC in-between AAI and SW? Guadaloupe I can understand, Texas LLC is a whole nother animal.

The light at the end of the tunnel maybe a train. I would hate to start playing hardball with the Dallas GO. They will win, they do it all the time. They negotiate everyday, for everything. Choose wisely.

RF

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Roughneck is exactly right. The nuclear option is to slowly transfer equipment. There is nothing anywhere to keep this from happening. The Muse Air option is still there if the Trannies try to overeach. He knows it, and I think most of them know it as well.

Check the Transition Agreement. No Southwest pilots to be furloughed during this whole process. I know Lear thinks it's an impossiblity, but really I'm not so sure. If Gary gets pushed into a corner by a labor group (and it could be someone other than the pilots), he could very easily pull the plug.

It's the real reason AAI is sitting in the Texas LLC. And to listen to PCL tell it, the only reason is for tax purposes. He's partially right...Guadaloupe was for tax purposes, Texas LLC is not.

Why would Gary set up TWO seperate LLC to attempt to integrate Airtran? It has absolutely nothing to due with taxes, I guarantee you that. Anybody at Airtran that thinks otherwise has his head deep in the sand.

Answer this one question...if it was for tax purposes, why put one more LLC in-between AAI and SW? Guadaloupe I can understand, Texas LLC is a whole nother animal.

The light at the end of the tunnel maybe a train. I would hate to start playing hardball with the Dallas GO. They will win, they do it all the time. They negotiate everyday, for everything. Choose wisely.

RF

The nuclear option will produce a long, drug out court battle ala AAA. When it's done, we won't have to worry about the top WN guys cause they'll be gone.

Define "over reach" and how line pilots on an anonymous forum can "over reach".

You mean we're not still in Guadelupe Holdings? I thought just recently some of your legal eagles were threatening us with that. At least we've moved on. Texas Sub is the interim between DOCC and SOC. When SOC happens, Texas Sub will go away as well. Guadalupe was a marker while waiting for DOJ, it couldn't continue to exist and serve it's tax purposes, therefore Texas Sub was necessary.

 

[ATLplt]

I would hate to start playing hardball with the Dallas GO. They will win, they do it all the time. They negotiate everyday, for everything. Choose wisely.

RF

Who the hell is "playing hardball"...the egos on this forum or our appointed committees? I think the ALPA MC has been extremely professional throughout the process. The opinions on this forum are just that...opinions. There is a process. Both sides are arguing their cases. If nothing is resolved a neutral panel of three will rule on the information presented. That's it. Cut it with the stupid threats. It was old two months ago. uke:

 

[redflyer65]

Cut it with the stupid threats. It was old two months ago. uke:

I glad you can be so cavalier with what your MC is facing. Good luck with that.

Luv,

You haven't been following along...Guadeloupe did last briefly. Texas LLC? That will be up to you guys to decide. Just stating the obvious. It was setup this way for a reason...and it wasn't just for taxes.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I glad you can be so cavalier with what your MC is facing. Good luck with that.

Luv,

You haven't been following along...Guadeloupe did last briefly. Texas LLC? That will be up to you guys to decide. Just stating the obvious. It was setup this way for a reason...and it wasn't just for taxes.

Oh, I've been following along. Guadeloupe ceased to exist after DOC when the merger was complete (May2), however, as recently as the last week or two we were threatened with being forced to stay under Guadeloupe Holdings (more than a month after Guadeloupe was disolved).

I trust GK's word, Texas LLC will go away with SOC. It's ironic that FL guys have more faith in GK than his own pilots do. Keep pressing him, see who gets the train at the end of the tunnel.

 

[madjack]

Threats are not helpful....but I would llike to hear from the AAI side how it is falr that the acquired pilot group gains cp seats, pay, seniority etc...and the SWA Pilots LOSE nothing...shouldn't we share the gains?

 

[ATLplt]

I glad you can be so cavalier with what your MC is facing. Good luck with that.

It ain't cavalier. It's purely confidence in the process. Threats via conspiracy theories, (produced by knuckleheads on an anonymous web board), mean jack chit to management, the MC's, or a panel of arbitrators. It simply makes you look like an ass to your future co-workers...but hey, good luck with that.

 

[ATLplt]

Threats are not helpful....

Agree 100 percent.

but I would llike to hear from the AAI side how it is falr that the acquired pilot group gains cp seats, pay, seniority etc...and the SWA Pilots LOSE nothing...shouldn't we share the gains?

How exactly does an AT Capt gain a Capt seat when he already holds it?

 

[Daddy]

I trust GK's word, Texas LLC will go away with SOC. It's ironic that FL guys have more faith in GK than his own pilots do. Keep pressing him, see who gets the train at the end of the tunnel.

Gary Kelly would gut you like a fish in a NY minute if it would save and/or make SWA money...he would do the same to us if we let him. He is under no obligation to incorporate your airline into SWA...if you guys can't see that, you are truly delusional. I would not screw with GK - SWA is like the house in Vegas...they always win. You guys are playing with fire here....good luck with that. Ask the F9 pilots how that worked out for them...OBTW, you don't have another offer on the table like they did.

 

[roughneck]

Agree 100 percent.



How exactly does an AT Capt gain a Capt seat when he already holds it?

Zero AirTran pilots have a SWA Captain seat today. Did I miss something?

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

My prediction! The Trannies are going to push until they are out of a job! But hey David said that could never happen!

 

[madjack]

Atlplt,

I used the example of Ty and myself...I have been @ SWA Longer than he has been at AAI...If he or you keep ur CP seats @ SWA, You gain pay, seniority @ a better run company...true, I lose no money but why should I agree to a deal where you gain so much and I merely lose nothing? Why do you get to win so much?

 

[redflyer65]

Kinda like turning back the hands of time and actually getting hired at Southwest instead of Airtran. I would say that getting hired at either airline on the same day(XX number of years ago), would lead to vastly different career expectations.

How would that not be addressed? It's at the heart of the issue.

 

[dicko]

1.I would llike to hear from the AAI side how it is falr that the acquired pilot group gains cp seats, pay, seniority etc...and 2.the SWA Pilots LOSE nothing...shouldn't we share the gains?

1. No. We brought the seats with us. They are attached to the aircraft. We are merely keeping what we brought.

2. You've been telling us for months how much you've got. Ask your boss for the gains, not AirTran pilots. You've spent months telling us how little we've got.