SWAPA Comments about 717

[ATLplt]

Just in 60 plus % yes vote for SL12.

What exactly is does SL12 encompass? Intl ops? If you wanna pm the details that's fine. Thanks.

 

[redflyer65]

Defines ETOPS bid groups and bidding practices.
Decreases codeshare of 4% overall, down to 2%. And names ONLY Volaris as the 2% codeshare.

Small increase of per diem for international ops. I think it's 2.65.

Defines cost for Passport if you don't have one, etc.


SL14 is next. It's tied to 12 basically. Defines redeye flying and Average Daily Guarantee of 6.5 (including redeyes). Redeye premium of 15% or ADG, whichever is greater. Gives the company a three year break on flying to the north rim of South America as 'Near International', then defaults to 'Far International' after that time with a re-opener for different work rules/pay possibly.

That's the nutshell.

 

[texman]

What exactly is does SL12 encompass? Intl ops? If you wanna pm the details that's fine. Thanks.

I don't if I want to you might shoot me with that big ol ATL gun.

 

[scoreboardII]

What SL12 does is ensure the pain of the juniority will increase as all redeyes and ETOP's become the realm of the junior. That is, once all those senior try it out and see it sucks to fly into a sunrise for the same pay AND you can't ELITT out of it.

 

[Tripower455]

What SL12 does is ensure the pain of the juniority will increase as all redeyes and ETOP's become the realm of the junior. That is, once all those senior try it out and see it sucks to fly into a sunrise for the same pay AND you can't ELITT out of it.

Have no fear, thanks to SWApA's "duplex strategery" they will be spread evenly amongst the lines, so the pain will be shared.

ELITT will provide no respite either, as it's already hard enough to move stuff around now, before the additional red eye restrictions are even on there.

Great job guys!

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Did SWAPA coerce the extra 10-15% into voting yes by promising more to come in SL14 to help the Company? Say it isn't so. Course we're used to that at the tranny when some in our union leadership were trying desperately to get along with the BMT. I hope SWAPA had the forsight to at least talk to our sched committee for some insight on how our red-eyes work and to try to mitigate some of the pit-falls the company has taken advantage of on our side.

 

[humveedriver]

The red eye flying isn't the killer. It's when crew planning adds additional legs after the red eye leg that real fatigue issues arise. Was this addressed in SL12?

 

[ATLplt]

...you might shoot me with that big ol ATL gun.

That's what she said! *rimshot*

Thanks for the responses guys.

 

[jball2]

From what I read they cannot add anything on after a red eye.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[redflyer65]

That's true. Its in the SL 14 language. If you fly a redeye on the last day it will pay at least 6.5

 

[texman]

Rimshot!lol!

 

[Tripower455]

Rimshot!lol!

LOL... leave it to SWApA to "gain" what we already had.....

 

[humveedriver]

Does SL12 increase guarantee 6.5 trips for each day no matter if it has a red eye or not? Said another way; Does the 6.5 ADG only apply to a redeye "day" or is it included in all days for the pairing? I don't know how meaningful the extra 15% really is, next to 6.5 ADG. I wonder how it looks comparing say LAS-BWI to SEA-BWI? I bet it would be lucrative on LAS-MDW. I'm currently flying redeyes without override, do you guys think SL12 meets the bar?

 

[TahoeBoarder]

Technically, 6.5 as an ADG, regardless of red eye or not, is in our current contract and is further defined in SL14 (yet to be voted on). We didn't gain anything here, just clarified what a "day" is with the intro of red eyes.

 

[Lear70]

Red-eyes as part of a day-scheduled trip are unsafe. Period.

The human body wasn't designed to flip-flop its circadian rhythm like that. That's why our company mainly makes red-eye only lines or at least puts 3 red eyes back-to-back rather than scheduling a day trip then a red-eye.

The worst pairings we have are those that fly a 3 day trip and the last day is a West Coast overnight followed by a red-eye return into domicile. People don't want to call fatigue out there because it's their last day and they're going home, so they suck it up and fly fatigued anyway, just to go home without a delay.

My body can't handle them, hasn't for a long time now, can't go to sleep in the middle of the day to be rested for the evening after being on a day routine all week. They really should only be flown by people who stay on a night rhythm for their entire pairing. Anything else is jeopardizing safety.

/soapbox

 

[PCL_128]

Of course everyone over there could have lived with DOH. So in that scenerio, your saying that getting hired at Airtran was exactly equal to getting hired at SW. That's not meant as a slam on AAI, just framing your point of view.

Yes, that's my point of view. I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine. But you should understand that many AirTran pilots never applied to SWA, and never had any intention of doing so. We didn't ask for this anymore than you did. Just something to keep in mind.

He didn't come to SWAPA and ask us what we thought he should do, he decided himself.

Yes, I agree with you there. I don't blame SWAPA for the pay, or for much of anything, really.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Yes, that's my point of view. I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine. But you should understand that many AirTran pilots never applied to SWA, and never had any intention of doing so. We didn't ask for this anymore than you did. Just something to keep in mind.



Yes, I agree with you there. I don't blame SWAPA for the pay, or for much of anything, really.

Well that's a refreshing change! Everyone else (especially those at other airlines not SWA or Airtran), seem to think that SWAPA set this all up just to mess with you.

Hopefully this will all get explained and straightened out soon, and the holes in the NEW plan and timeline can be reconciled with the OLD plan and timeline in a positive manner.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Does SL12 increase guarantee 6.5 trips for each day no matter if it has a red eye or not? Said another way; Does the 6.5 ADG only apply to a redeye "day" or is it included in all days for the pairing? I don't know how meaningful the extra 15% really is, next to 6.5 ADG. I wonder how it looks comparing say LAS-BWI to SEA-BWI? I bet it would be lucrative on LAS-MDW. I'm currently flying redeyes without override, do you guys think SL12 meets the bar?

To answer your initial question, yes, paired with SL14. The company wanted ADG to mean "Average Duty Period Guarantee" instead of "Average Daily Guarantee," which SWAPA wouldn't buy off on. SL 14 codifies the definition as "Average Daily Guarantee," with the Southwest day running from 0300 to 0259. The only exception is a single duty period, say running from midnight to 5am, would be one ADG (6.5) instead of two ADG (13.0). That's pretty much the way it is now for single duty period overnight charters. The ADG doesn't apply; they have their own rigs. So with the new agreement, if you flew two nights of back-to-back redeyes, it would pay a minimum of 19.5 (3 days' worth of ADG), since you're flying on three "Southwest" days. The company's original proposal would only pay a rigged minimum of 13.0 instead of 19.5, since it was only two duty periods.

The 15% override is only for flying out of the 48 contiguous states, unrelated to redeye issues, other than that's probably where you're going to see them, at least initially.

Clear as mud?

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Yes, that's my point of view. I understand that you feel differently, and that's fine. But you should understand that many AirTran pilots never applied to SWA, and never had any intention of doing so. We didn't ask for this anymore than you did. Just something to keep in mind.



Yes, I agree with you there. I don't blame SWAPA for the pay, or for much of anything, really.

Agree to disagree on the DOH thing PCL. It was definitly thrust upon all of us without our asking.

Lear,

The way the language is in SL14, you could be assigned a string of Redeye only flights. The carve-out on the Redeye turn is they don't pay ADG of 6.5 for 2 days. But they do pay a 15% overide if it equals more than 6.5. Clear as mud?

SL12 also gave us embedded reserve for Hawaii only. So a three day trip could be something like... 1st day (LAS-OAK-OGG), 2nd day embedded reserve that pays 6.0, 3rd day back to the CONUS. Could end with a redeye, but it would pay 6.5 because it's not a redeye turn.

Once you have completed a redeye leg, you can't fly anymore. You could be deadheaded though.

I think SL14 also states you won't have more than one redeye in a weekly pairing or something to that affect. So you could do a string of redeye turns for the week, or have one most likely as your last leg home, but that redeye would pay 6.5. I don't think anyone else gets paid better for that one leg.

 

[PCL_128]

Are you guys hearing that lines with strings of redeye turns may be coming in the future? That might be something I would be interested in bidding. Looking for any way possible to avoid 3 and 4 day trips.